RAIL - Back On Track Forum

QuoteTranslink was also dissolved into tmr which further stunted its ability

A key observation here is that Brisbane Transport is "dissolved" into BCC which has obvious issues.

The CCO model that Auckland Transport has would likely give much better outcomes. Auckland and Brisbane

both embarked on bus reforms at the same time. Auckland has pretty much completed theirs, no backlash.

The Auckland Bus review was lead by MR Cagney, a Brisbane firm based on Coronation Drive and headed by

a former Brisbane Transport head Neil Cagney.

There you go! 

QuoteMr Neil Cagney's background:

"Neil, in his role as Divisional Manager (CEO) of Brisbane Transport, firmly established a reputation for excellence in the strategic development of transport services. He oversaw numerous major operational programmes including a complete redesign of the city's public transport services, major industrial reform, the introduction of the iconic CityCat ferry service, the functional design of the city's busway project and the initiation of the SE Busway itself, plus numerous, road and fleet acquisition programmes."

From https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11047.600

Be warned, if they don't buz the 524 there will be big knitting troubles !!

I'm in training ...

Brisbane isn't Auckland. BCC has it all to play for. The state doesn't have that same luxury. Even our smaller private operators have their own problem with staffing issues.

It's not an overnight problem and it's not a quick fix.

There will be significant reform. 

The fact is the bi-artics will not be able to run unless bus numbers reduced on the busways.   

This should in a rational world lead to better feeder routes, cross suburban.

^

QuoteThere will be significant reform.

The fact is the bi-artics will not be able to run unless bus numbers reduced on the busways. 

This should in a rational world lead to better feeder routes, cross suburban.

I'm starting to piece this together. The Bi-arctic buses (BRT Superbuses are a more appropriate name) will allow some bus routes to be turned into feeders and are cheaper than LRT/Metro rail options.

Rail has absolute advantages over a bus-only network that extend beyond operational costs - Network Topology.

An actual rail service along the busway (or broadly following it) would be able to absorb ALL connecting bus routes, including BUZ services such as 111, 160, 130, 140, 150 etc. And absorb all the Logan buses too (555, etc). The BRT superbuses will not be able to do this because they do not have the vehicle capacity (150 pax / 65 is 2.3 BCC buses vs C-Train style LRT 900 pax / 65 is 13.8 BCC buses or 6x what the Superbuses can absorb).

This is significant because bus operating costs scale with distance and frequency. When the service distance is doubled, the cost double. When the frequency is doubled, the costs also double. Therefore, if rail was present, the operational cost of the BCC bus network would probably drop sharply because it is these BUZ services that have the highest operational costs.

Rail is still and is probably the ultimate mode for the alignment. BCC can delay it for as long as possible, but I think if TransLink modelled the present value of the future operational costs of a bus only vs bus + rail network along the alignment, it would be very interesting.

They are bi artics to me. The challenge will be what routes get the flick. Might be a hard sell, depending ...

Ok, I was bored today and went through every 0xx, 1xx and 2xx route, and tried to work around which routes could be truncated when the Metro comes online. In my assessment below, I'm being VERY conservative. In an ideal world I'd like to truncate and feeder-ise a lot more of these routes, but I'm trying to be as realistic as possible.

Also note the asterisk (*) on some notes that enter the busway at Woolloongabba. If Woolloongabba station is Metro-ised, then you could potentially look at terminating these routes at Woolloongabba "Metro" station. Can't tell until that happens though.

See table below:

Route   Entrance to busway      Change          Reason
28   Busway only              No change       Trunk route
29   Busway only              No change   Trunk route (remove if Gabba goes inline)
66   Busway only              Remove      Replaced with Metro Route 2
77   Busway only              No change   Cross town express
100   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route, only uses busway for core section*
104   Boggo Road              No change   Terminates at PA
105   Boggo Road              Truncate           Terminate at Boggo Road, use PA off ramp to turnaround
107   Boggo Road              Truncate           Terminate at Boggo Road, use PA off ramp to turnaround
108   Boggo Road              Truncate           Terminate at Boggo Road, use PA off ramp to turnaround
110   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route, only uses busway for core section
111   Busway only              Remove      Replaced by Metro Route 1
112   Mater Hill              No change   Only uses busway for core section
113   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
115   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route, only uses busway for core section*
116   Mater Hill              No change   Only uses busway for core section
117   Woolloongabba      No change   Terminates at Woolloongabba
118   Garden City              Truncate           Terminate at Garden City
120   Mater Hill              No change   Trunk route, only uses busway for core section
124   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section, connects to Valley
125   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section, connects to Valley
129   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
130   Griffith University           No change   Trunk route, too much patronage to truncate
131   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
134   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
135   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
136   Garden City              Truncate           Terminate at Garden City (lose connection to Spring Hill?)
137   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
138   Eight Mile Plains           Truncate           Terminate at Garden City
139   Griffith University           No change   Trunk route
140   Griffith University           No change   Trunk route, too much patronage to truncate
141   Griffith University           No change(?)   Express route
142   Eight Mile Plains           No change   Super-express route
150   Garden City              No change   Trunk route, too much patronage to truncate
151   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
153   Eight Mile Plains           Truncate           Terminate at Garden City
155   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
156   Garden City              Truncate(?)   Terminate at Garden City
157   Garden City              Truncate(?)   Terminate at Garden City
160   Busway only              Remove      Replaced by Metro Route 1
161   Garden City              Truncate           Terminate at Garden City (does so on Sundays anyway)
162   Eight Mile Plains           Remove (?)   Super-express route
169   Busway only              No change   Trunk route
170   Greenslopes              No change   Trunk route
171   Greenslopes              No change   Connects to Valley
172   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
173   Buranda                 Truncate           Terminate at Greenslopes (3 stops on Pear st. stranded)
174   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
175   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route, Only uses busway for core section*
176   Greenslopes              No change   Express route, connects to Valley
178   Greenslopes              No change   Connects to Valley, goes via CCB
179   Buranda                 No change   Express route, goes via CCB, nowhere to turn around
180   Buranda                 No change   Trunk route, nowhere to turn around
181   Buranda                 No change   Express route, goes via CCB, nowhere to turn around
184   Woolloongabba      Truncate           Terminate at Woolloongabba
185   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route, Only uses busway for core section
186   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
189   Buranda                 No change   Express route, goes via CCB, nowhere to turn around
200   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route
202   Cultural Centre      No change   Only uses busway for core section
203   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
204   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
205   Buranda                 No change   Express route, goes via CCB
206   Langlands Park      No change   Not enough capacity at L. Park, nowhere to turn around
207   Langlands Park      Remove(?)   Duplicates 217
208   Buranda                 No change   Goes via CCB, nowhere to turn around
209   Langlands Park      No change   Trunk route
210   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
212    Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
214   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
215   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
220    Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
222   Langlands Park      No change   Trunk route
230   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route
235   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route
243   Buranda                 No change   Super-express route, nowhere to turn around
251   Buranda                 No change   Super-express route, nowhere to turn around
261   Eight Mile Plains           Truncate           Terminate at Garden City
262   Eight Mile Plains           No change   Terminates at Griffith University
265   Buranda                 No change   Super-express, nowhere to turn around
267   Buranda                 No change   Super-express, nowhere to turn around
273   Buranda                 No change   Super-express, nowhere to turn around
275   Buranda                 No change   Super-express, nowhere to turn around
276   Eight Mile Plains           Truncate           Terminate at Garden City
279   Eight Mile Plains           Truncate           Terminate at Garden City
280   Eight Mile Plains           No change   Terminates at Griffith University
281   Eight Mile Plains           Truncate           Terminate at Garden City
299   Eight Mile Plains           Truncate           Terminate at Garden City


Some notes:

• The easiest routes to truncate are ones that enter the busway at Griffith University, Eight Mile Plains or Garden City. I imagine that BCC has plans to truncate many of the routes I have listed there, as Garden City already has the capacity to do so, and the Metro plans include (included? Not sure if it's still in "Stage 1") plans for increasing the turnaround/layover capacity at Griffith University
• I intentionally left all major trunk routes (100, 130, 140, 150 etc.) unaltered. It is unlikely these would ever be modified due to their high patronage
• Any routes that enter/leave the busway at Juliette Street/Cornwall Street (marked "Buranda" on the table) are extremely difficult to deal with, due to a lack of turnaround capacity anywhere further inbound of Buranda. I am totally open to suggestions here. This is particularly notable for 17x, 18x and 2xx routes.
• There are so many duplicate routes in the 2xx range! Ideally, if the Eastern busway was extended to Carindale, and a third metro line added there, you would do another huge truncation of routes in the 2xx range
• Looking at the 3xx routes at the busway infrastructure north of Roma Street, there isn't really any sensible place to truncate these routes. Although I am open to suggestion if someone has any ideas here.

I think 111, 160, 555 should definitely go, but knowing BCC, they won't want the great unwashed Loganites on their shiny new "Metro" buses.

130/140 is a different matter, they carry lots of people, I rarely see air parcels on these routes even late at night, so I think truncating them might be difficult.

Now that there's a stop in Woolloongabba, I reckon a lot of the all-stops routes could be terminated there: 124/125/174/175/185/185/203/204/230/235 (although I think an argument could be made for 230/235 to go via Story Bridge full time like the 231/236). Maybe even some of the less-used express routes like 110/115/215/220. This should help free up a lot of the congestion between Mater Hill and the city. I'm just not sure if there would be enough turnaround space at 'Gabba to handle them all.

Quote130/140 is a different matter, they carry lots of people, I rarely see air parcels on these routes even late at night, so I think truncating them might be difficult.

And this is the advantage of rail in the SE Busway corridor. Rail would be able to absorb all of this load which would free up an enormous amount of route-km to use elsewhere. The best case with a bus-only network is to run Bi-Artics also on route 130, 140 etc as well. Do these bi-artic buses fit into Queen Street Bus station and can they go through "the snake" that is the extremely narrow approach deep inside QSBS?

Buranda needs to be an interchange station, there is empty land next to it so some forward planning is defineity required now should a large bus interchange be required to absorb all of the Old Cleveland Road 200 series of buses into a rail service along the SE Busway corridor.

Quote from: achiruel on April 25, 2022, 15:23:32 PMNow that there's a stop in Woolloongabba, I reckon a lot of the all-stops routes could be terminated there: 124/125/174/175/185/185/203/204/230/235 (although I think an argument could be made for 230/235 to go via Story Bridge full time like the 231/236). Maybe even some of the less-used express routes like 110/115/215/220. This should help free up a lot of the congestion between Mater Hill and the city. I'm just not sure if there would be enough turnaround space at 'Gabba to handle them all.

Agree, although in my view the 124 and 125 should continue onto the Valley (and RBWH?) via Story Bridge, while still servicing 'Gabba station by using the stop just outside the busway that's currently covered-up due to CRR cons.

The resources of the other routes could be put to use improving connectivity between their respective suburbs, Bulimba-Stones Corner-East Brisbane-Camp Hill etc

As a former resident of the Redland Shire, I've always wondered what would happen if the super-express services (such as the 265, 267, 279, etc) were all removed and replaced by more frequent services of the 250, 270 and 280 as well as the local counterparts of the routes (such as the 264, 266, etc). I'm sure we'd all hear an outcry of the surbanites from the area, but paired with a legitimate busway from at least Carina and bus-jump lanes from Carina to Cleveland, I truly wonder what would the overall effect be on both patronage and traffic along Old Cleveland Rd.

Side Note: I doubt a busway out to Carina or Carindale will occur anytime soon but at least extend it to Coorparoo Junction/ Bowies Flat Wetlands with bus turnaround capabilities for the 61 and possibly some other future routes.

I think we need to avoid changing/modifying the existing routes and move to a completely new BRT network!

https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=14588.0

^ as desirable that might be, I think they will tinker with the existing routes/structures.

The bi-artics have to pass muster first.  I think it is reasonable to expect they will though.

My understanding is that TransLink/BCC have been working on this for a while now.

I am thinking of writing to DDG TransLink later today asking what is the process, broad plan etc.

I think there is a case to run bi-arctics on arterial roads. It's not rail but it's still a useful tool in the PT toolbox.

Route 140 is ripe for conversion and any future rail corridor on the SEB should consider a branch to Browns Plains.

There will probably be issues because I suspect the buses won't fit though the QSBS snake. RBOT might have to clarify with BCC on what's possible.

Quote from: #Metro on April 26, 2022, 01:51:15 AMRBOT might have to clarify with BCC on what's possible.

I doubt we will see the bi-artics ever mix with regular traffic. At best they would run in dedicated buslanes in the future.

 But if you did want to run the 140 with bi-artics as you suggested, if QSBS is going to be an issue, just reroute it to KGS.

Whilst I fully understand that QSBS plays a roll in the current network design, it is a symptom of a CBD focused network and has no role in a future cross-city interconnected BRT network! 

The same as Bowen-Hills and Roma Street terminating services in peak hour!

They are a symptom of poor design!

Bi-artic buses run on normal roads elsewhere and are smaller and lighter than LRT which we also run on surface roads.

QSBS is a part of the network. Not every route should be a through route. It does need the narrow entry passage widened though.

Just thought I'd summarise my above table with a bit of an overview of the changed routes, for those that find it TLDR.

• 4 routes removed (160, 162, 111, 66). Consider removing P207 as well because it's a ridiculous duplicitous route anyway. Removal of 162 super-express could also be controversial
• 25 routes truncated. Of those:
• 3 would terminate at Boggo Road
  (105, 107, 108)
• 12 would terminate at Garden City.
  (118, 136, 138, 153, 156, 157, 161, 261, 276, 279, 281, 299)
  Most of these are low-hanging fruit (161, 299, etc.) but I have included a few potentially controversial ones there (some CCB express routes like 156 and 157). I also worry about terminating the 136 at Garden city as you may potentially lose that connection to Spring Hill, but that could easily be covered by one of the inner-city services.
  
• 8 would terminate at Griffith University.
  (129, 131, 134, 135, 137, 151, 155, 186)
  The only really controversial one there would be the P129 as it's another express route. I also considered truncating the 141 but due to it's patronage I decided not to, open to suggestions though
• 1 would terminate at Greenslopes (173), which requires some minor rerouting down Barnsdale Pl and using the little roundabout to turnaround. You may strand some stops here so this is a controversial one but xx3 routes tend to be suburban safari routes that I don't see being a huge issue to reroute like this. There may be more options for this rerouting to Greenslopes for some other routes that enter the Busway at Juliette Street (such as 181, 208...), but I'm not confident with that).
• 1 would terminate at Woolloongabba (184)
• Should Woolloongabba go in-line and receive "Metro" service, you could like at cutting 1 more route (29), and truncating another (up to) 13 routes that enter the busway at Woolloongabba
• I didn't mention it above, but I would also consider converting the 555 to a super-express route, from Springwood to the City. Metro Line 1 should be extended to Springwood to cover the stations in-between for Logan customers. If/when Metro Line 1 is extended to Hyperdome along the new busway extension, I would then change the 555 to be a super-express from Hyperdome to City, with Metro services again filling in the gaps.

Quote from: timh on April 25, 2022, 14:47:56 PMOk, I was bored today and went through every 0xx, 1xx and 2xx route, and tried to work around which routes could be truncated when the Metro comes online. In my assessment below, I'm being VERY conservative. In an ideal world I'd like to truncate and feeder-ise a lot more of these routes, but I'm trying to be as realistic as possible.

Also note the asterisk (*) on some notes that enter the busway at Woolloongabba. If Woolloongabba station is Metro-ised, then you could potentially look at terminating these routes at Woolloongabba "Metro" station. Can't tell until that happens though.

See table below:

Route   Entrance to busway      Change          Reason
28   Busway only              No change       Trunk route
29   Busway only              No change   Trunk route (remove if Gabba goes inline)
66   Busway only              Remove      Replaced with Metro Route 2
77   Busway only              No change   Cross town express
100   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route, only uses busway for core section*
104   Boggo Road              No change   Terminates at PA
105   Boggo Road              Truncate           Terminate at Boggo Road, use PA off ramp to turnaround
107   Boggo Road              Truncate           Terminate at Boggo Road, use PA off ramp to turnaround
108   Boggo Road              Truncate           Terminate at Boggo Road, use PA off ramp to turnaround
110   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route, only uses busway for core section
111   Busway only              Remove      Replaced by Metro Route 1
112   Mater Hill              No change   Only uses busway for core section
113   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
115   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route, only uses busway for core section*
116   Mater Hill              No change   Only uses busway for core section
117   Woolloongabba      No change   Terminates at Woolloongabba
118   Garden City              Truncate           Terminate at Garden City
120   Mater Hill              No change   Trunk route, only uses busway for core section
124   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section, connects to Valley
125   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section, connects to Valley
129   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
130   Griffith University           No change   Trunk route, too much patronage to truncate
131   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
134   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
135   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
136   Garden City              Truncate           Terminate at Garden City (lose connection to Spring Hill?)
137   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
138   Eight Mile Plains           Truncate           Terminate at Garden City
139   Griffith University           No change   Trunk route
140   Griffith University           No change   Trunk route, too much patronage to truncate
141   Griffith University           No change(?)   Express route
142   Eight Mile Plains           No change   Super-express route
150   Garden City              No change   Trunk route, too much patronage to truncate
151   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
153   Eight Mile Plains           Truncate           Terminate at Garden City
155   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
156   Garden City              Truncate(?)   Terminate at Garden City
157   Garden City              Truncate(?)   Terminate at Garden City
160   Busway only              Remove      Replaced by Metro Route 1
161   Garden City              Truncate           Terminate at Garden City (does so on Sundays anyway)
162   Eight Mile Plains           Remove (?)   Super-express route
169   Busway only              No change   Trunk route
170   Greenslopes              No change   Trunk route
171   Greenslopes              No change   Connects to Valley
172   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
173   Buranda                 Truncate           Terminate at Greenslopes (3 stops on Pear st. stranded)
174   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
175   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route, Only uses busway for core section*
176   Greenslopes              No change   Express route, connects to Valley
178   Greenslopes              No change   Connects to Valley, goes via CCB
179   Buranda                 No change   Express route, goes via CCB, nowhere to turn around
180   Buranda                 No change   Trunk route, nowhere to turn around
181   Buranda                 No change   Express route, goes via CCB, nowhere to turn around
184   Woolloongabba      Truncate           Terminate at Woolloongabba
185   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route, Only uses busway for core section
186   Griffith University           Truncate           Terminate at Griffith University
189   Buranda                 No change   Express route, goes via CCB, nowhere to turn around
200   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route
202   Cultural Centre      No change   Only uses busway for core section
203   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
204   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
205   Buranda                 No change   Express route, goes via CCB
206   Langlands Park      No change   Not enough capacity at L. Park, nowhere to turn around
207   Langlands Park      Remove(?)   Duplicates 217
208   Buranda                 No change   Goes via CCB, nowhere to turn around
209   Langlands Park      No change   Trunk route
210   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
212    Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
214   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
215   Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
220    Woolloongabba      No change   Only uses busway for core section*
222   Langlands Park      No change   Trunk route
230   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route
235   Woolloongabba      No change   Trunk route
243   Buranda                 No change   Super-express route, nowhere to turn around
251   Buranda                 No change   Super-express route, nowhere to turn around
261   Eight Mile Plains           Truncate           Terminate at Garden City
262   Eight Mile Plains           No change   Terminates at Griffith University
265   Buranda                 No change   Super-express, nowhere to turn around
267   Buranda                 No change   Super-express, nowhere to turn around
273   Buranda                 No change   Super-express, nowhere to turn around
275   Buranda                 No change   Super-express, nowhere to turn around
276   Eight Mile Plains           Truncate           Terminate at Garden City
279   Eight Mile Plains           Truncate           Terminate at Garden City
280   Eight Mile Plains           No change   Terminates at Griffith University
281   Eight Mile Plains           Truncate           Terminate at Garden City
299   Eight Mile Plains           Truncate           Terminate at Garden City


Some notes:

• The easiest routes to truncate are ones that enter the busway at Griffith University, Eight Mile Plains or Garden City. I imagine that BCC has plans to truncate many of the routes I have listed there, as Garden City already has the capacity to do so, and the Metro plans include (included? Not sure if it's still in "Stage 1") plans for increasing the turnaround/layover capacity at Griffith University
• I intentionally left all major trunk routes (100, 130, 140, 150 etc.) unaltered. It is unlikely these would ever be modified due to their high patronage
• Any routes that enter/leave the busway at Juliette Street/Cornwall Street (marked "Buranda" on the table) are extremely difficult to deal with, due to a lack of turnaround capacity anywhere further inbound of Buranda. I am totally open to suggestions here. This is particularly notable for 17x, 18x and 2xx routes.
• There are so many duplicate routes in the 2xx range! Ideally, if the Eastern busway was extended to Carindale, and a third metro line added there, you would do another huge truncation of routes in the 2xx range
• Looking at the 3xx routes at the busway infrastructure north of Roma Street, there isn't really any sensible place to truncate these routes. Although I am open to suggestion if someone has any ideas here.

This alone tells me the bus network needs to be thrown away and fresh BRT trunk network implemented.

QuoteMost of these are low-hanging fruit (161, 299, etc.) but I have included a few potentially controversial ones

WHAT!!   Deleting MY personal express 1-pax rocket 161 to the CBD! No way!! 

I want to see the manager!!

Oh no ...  they have started ..... 

I don't see enough capacity in the biartics to cater to all the transferring passengers.  There can only be around a 3-4 minute headway along the SEB (Buranda and south) in peak for at most 3,000 passengers.  Where are the rest going?

Quote from: SurfRail on April 27, 2022, 15:01:40 PMI don't see enough capacity in the biartics to cater to all the transferring passengers.  There can only be around a 3-4 minute headway along the SEB (Buranda and south) in peak for at most 3,000 passengers.  Where are the rest going?

Sounds like the Metro didn't do it math properly.  This is the problem with transport planning in QLD. It is project first network design/impact last if at all.

What is the likely projected passengers the busway should/will need to carry assuming just 2 routes/lines run on it.

I've just run a few quick numbers.

The promised 2 minute headway in peak would be 30 buses an hour each direction through the CBD for a total of 60 movements total.  This is notionally 15 buses per hour each direction (4 minute headways) on each of the 2 routes, overlapping to produce 30 buses per hour each direction (2 minute headways) at stations from Woolloongabba to Roma Street inclusive.  From RBWH to Roma Street and on either leg south of Woolloongabba, this is going to be a 4 minute headway only. 

Both routes would take around 25-30 minutes to complete based on the current trip times for Routes 66 and 111.   Journey times will vary by up to 5 minutes depending on time of day, passenger loadings, number of other services using the busway, conflicting movements at junctions, platform congestion etc, as they do now.  We know there will be on-board validation like every other bus, so there will still be delays in boarding and alighting due to ticketing validation and thus no time saving there over the present arrangements. 

There may be some sort of modest time saving based on there being less congestion around the junctions due to a reduction in bus movements, and a faster route around the Gabba and between North Quay and KGS, but I can't see that it will change substantially other than the timings becoming more reliable across the day.  Best case scenario to me still looks like 25 minutes end-to-end for each route in peak hour, with a big question mark around that being achievable.

You then have to account for recovery time after each trip.  There are a number of factors here:
- Industrial arrangements applicable to turnaround time (which accounts for toilet / meal breaks etc), which will mandate a certain minimum time sitting at the end of the route.  IIRC the current requirement is 4 minutes per service, but don't quote me on that.
- Northbound buses at Roma Street and RBWH need to continue past the last stop to turn around at Countess St / Ernie's Roundabout respectively and then travel back to the opposite platforms at Roma Street / RBWH stations to continue southbound.
- The vehicles will need to recharge, albeit I am not sure how often.

So, being very generous, that would mean a given bus could complete a return trip on each route in 60 minutes, being 2 x approximately 25 minute trips plus say 2 x 5 recoveries. 

To sustain 2 minute headways in both directions from Woolloongabba to Roma Street would therefore require all 60 buses to be in use in peak times. 

I therefore consider it extremely unrealistic that 60 buses can deliver the promised timetable.  All 60 buses would need to be on the road and on a razor-tight timetable.  This is unsustainable.

Even if this could be delivered reliably, the capacity on each individual route is no more than 15 buses per hour.  Being generous again and assuming that the buses carry say 200 passengers each (which is 50 in excess of "normal mode" and 30 in excess of "event mode"), that is 3,000 each, or 6,000 in the core.

A more realistic assumption would be they can deliver a bus every 2.5 minutes, which would be a bus every 5 minutes on each leg (12 buses per hour, 24 buses per hour in the core, total of roughly 48 required with 20% of the fleet available for maintenance, back-up, beefing up the timetable temporarily for special event services etc).  That is consistent with G:Link which has a normal weekday peak vehicle requirement of I believe 14 out of 18 trams.

Assuming a more realistic capacity for the vehicles (ie the 150 advertised by the project outside of "event mode"), that is a peak capacity of 1,800 per route, and 3,600 in the core.   You can also assume this capacity will not be available all day long, the same way the busway's existing passenger capacity scales way way back outside the AM and PM peaks.

Bear in mind G:link can comfortably deliver 2,400 pphpd along the whole system all day long at only 8 trams per hour (ie 14 trams on the road), with considerably fewer hurdles to turn-around time.  They can and do turn trams around much faster than any BCC bus currently, and do not need to send a tram a kilometre up the road and back to change ends at a terminus like will be required here.  The system can also comfortably operate with double, triple or quadruple this headway, given enough trams.  There is no way Brisbane Metro could due to the limited platform capacity and lack of fixed guidance, and certainly not with "normal" rigid or articulated buses getting in the way.

Is there any project modelling available that would tend to suggest anything above is incorrect?  Happy to look at it if there is.

Quote from: SurfRail on April 27, 2022, 16:30:14 PMThe promised 2 minute headway

I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but my understanding was that it was a bus every 3 minutes, not every 2 minutes. I also thought that number was for the outer stations as well (eg EMP or UQ), not just the core. I may be wrong though

^4 min headways on either route combining for a 2 min headway through the core section.

Wow.  G:link can comfortably deliver 2,400 pphpd along the whole system all day long at only 8 trams per hour.  Metro with 60 buses is likely to 3,600 in a very very (almost unlikely) best scenario.  How did this pass IA muster?

This is why network modelling needs to be a supply equation not a demand one:

• determine likely trips across region based on 15min Neighbourhood principles and travel behaviours in cities with high active/public transport - noting that this is different to trips made today in our car-dependent city
• identify end-state % of trips by active/public transport
• identify routes and volumes to be moved through out the day and night
• identify mode of public transport that can meet the peak volumes on those routes routes
• publish network plan and priority list

I'm sure I recall seeing a claim of 9000 passengers per hour which I calculated to mean 1 full bus every minute. Clearly from the calculations above this is impossible but would be inferior to automated rapid transit or heavy rail anyway.

It would even be inferior to light rail.

The passenger capacity for G:Link is usually given as 309 (80 seated, 229 standing), but I think that's assuming 4 pax / m2.  They can probably get up to about 6 pax / m2 when it's really busy, which means around 425.  This is in a 43.5m 7-section tram - they could be 9-section and still fit on (I think) every busway platform.

(I've seen Melbourne's E's rated at 294 using the same density for a 33m tram - they probably hit that more often than the G:Link trams for a bunch of reasons.)

They can also operate at 6.5 minute headways with 16 trams running, one spare and one under maintenance, which is OK for occasional use for special events.  There's no technical constraint on running every 6, 5, 4 or 3 minutes apart from not enough trams (and no real present need).  I understand there is a practical limit of 40 trams an hour based on platform capacity but it might be a bit less to cater to other traffic.

Bi-artic buses are a great additional tool in the toolbox. But it is not a metro for the simple reason that this BRT setup cannot absorb interchange from ALL bus routes that feed into the busway the way a true metro would. The vehicles simply do not have the capacity to absorb proper interchange.

Increased Capacity on Routes
The value of bi-artic buses are on certain routes - the Blue CityGlider is a good candidate, as are routes originating from the Browns Plains/Algester area. Bi-artic buses could also be used as a prelude or introduction to Light Rail operations, such as on the corridors being investigated for LRT on the Sunshine Coast and as supplements to LRT on the Gold Coast (e.g. to the Northern Gold Coast).

Simplified Network Topology
Bi-artic buses could also be useful where those against connected networks/interchange have used the lack of DDA compliance at key rail stations (e.g. Indooroopilly) as a reason for not designing hub-and-spoke models of services. Using bi-arctic buses on a hypothetical Route 400 on Coronation Drive out to say Indooroopilly would allow, for example, a lot of other buses to be terminated and turned back at Indooroopilly bus interchange.

Fewer Rockets
With bigger buses, there is less need to run rockets, which only carry 50% load as for every full rocket bus to the CBD there is an anti-rocket going in the opposite direction doing dead running so it can complete a positioning move in the suburbs to form the next service.

For this reason I would like to see RBOT consider support for off-busway use of the bi-artic buses. Transport regulations might have to be updated, but that will come in time. Such buses already run on normal roads overseas, so I cannot see why regulations cannot be updated to allow them on roads here as well.

  

My thinking/approach is use what you got but with a clear vision of the future and not make short-sighted decisions because it's cheaper...in the short-term.  We need a SEQ BRT network running in dedicated lanes at high frequency using every running bus possible!!

The first bus is in fact registered with DTMR but would likely be quite restricted in where it can go.

If we were to contemplate off busway use I'd aim for the 140, 222 and 333 as potential corridors.

I think CityGlider really needs a high-capacity option too, but I can't see biartics being capable of traversing that route.

QuoteThe first bus is in fact registered with DTMR but would likely be quite restricted in where it can go.

If we were to contemplate off busway use I'd aim for the 140, 222 and 333 as potential corridors.

Trams are longer and yet are allowed on Queensland Roads... let's get Bi-arctic buses on main roads and high volume corridors.

Quote from: achiruel on April 30, 2022, 13:43:13 PMI think CityGlider really needs a high-capacity option too, but I can't see biartics being capable of traversing that route.

Can't see the Blue or Maroon Gliders being suitable for the bi-artics.

Quote from: #Metro on April 30, 2022, 13:46:38 PM

QuoteThe first bus is in fact registered with DTMR but would likely be quite restricted in where it can go.

If we were to contemplate off busway use I'd aim for the 140, 222 and 333 as potential corridors.

Trams are longer and yet are allowed on Queensland Roads... let's get Bi-arctic buses on main roads and high volume corridors.

Trams for the most part don't run in general traffic lanes though. Not sure how you could run any of those routes without doing so.

The current network and routes in many cases not suitable as bus routes! 

We need a BRT network where buses don't run in general traffic ...period!

Agree with 140/222/333 as the first candidates for getting bi-artics.

222 in particular I think; Old Cleveland Rd has four daytime-frequent services along it and three of those start at Carindale.

In related news, the 66 replacement should be called "Metro line 6" to leave space for the 222 replacement to be Metro Line 2, the 333 replacement to be Metro Line 3, etc.

Quote from: aldonius on May 05, 2022, 21:11:42 PMAgree with 140/222/333 as the first candidates for getting bi-artics.

222 in particular I think; Old Cleveland Rd has four daytime-frequent services along it and three of those start at Carindale.

In related news, the 66 replacement should be called "Metro line 6" to leave space for the 222 replacement to be Metro Line 2, the 333 replacement to be Metro Line 3, etc.

66 = T18
222 = T2
333 = T1
14 = T22

Network Doodling v5