Car parking - solutions?

[HappyTrainGuy]

No one is saying that tods shouldn't be designed and built. But expecting every station to be a tod using a blanket approach won't work. It's not just that simple. You need multiple levels of government to work together on a whole range of things, transit planning, transit fares, transit coverage, relocating and upgrading utilities,
Employment in surrounding areas (trains and buses don't go everywhere), the demographic you are catering for (large families who want yard space or someone single living in an apartment), converting more than just a car park into a building, relying heavily on the private sector, you need to resume and demolish existing properties, you need to realign road networks and corridors, attractions such as shops and schools in close proximity but most importantly density. There are areas where park and ride will always be better than a tod and there are times where a tod will be better than a park and ride. You can build a good tod at Banyo but if you have the option to drive 2km to Northgate with minimal traffic congestion due to an industrial estate to save $500 a year you will get people doing that. 

Christ outside of the buz network north of Chermside we still can't get anything better than a 60 minute frequency on buses and don't get me started on the routes that have 50 different terminus locations and routes taken depending on the time, day, school term and what direction the wind blows on February 29.

[#Metro]

No one is saying that tods shouldn't be designed and built. But expecting every station to be a tod using a blanket approach won't work. It's not just that simple.

Proponents of TOD should set out:

- What the minimum critical mass of development and number of people who are required within the 800 m walk-up zone to actually achieve the AT/PT mode splits they want. And set out their full working. What are the minimum quantity and height/form of the buildings?

- Specify if development will be allowed outside of the 800 m walk-up zone and in what form

(Q: does it strictly have to be 800m or can it be say up to 5 km if a bus is involved? Is a P&R allowed at the station or not?)

- For example, if we extend the train line out at Springfield to Ripley, what is the minimum critical mass to achieve a mode split of say 80% AT/PT and 20% Car use at the new Ripley station? How high would the buildings have to be and how many of them to reach this minimum?

[#Metro]

Perth is very specific about what is required to implement DOT (Development Oriented Transit). Something similar for TOD would be great. After all, if you're going to hand plans to a developer they will want to know how much, how many, and where.

Limits of walkup (and therefore TOD in general)



Walk-up patronage increases over time



Overall Strategy for TOD component
(note the detail in the R-codes and minimum requirements). Note the huge 2-ha P&R car park at the station at the centre of the TOD model.

- Q: What needs to change to make it PT/AT=80%?

 

R-Development Codes https://www.stageproperty.com.au/2021/05/20/r-zoning-codes-for-western-australia-what-does-it-mean/



Source: Application of a commuter railway to low density settlement. Martinovich, P. (2009)
https://www.bitre.gov.au/sites/default/files/2019-12/2009_infrastructure_colloquium_peter_martinovich.pdf

[HappyTrainGuy]

When you start talking about Springfield you start bringing up similar problems compared to Carseldine/Fitzgibbon. Train line goes to the city only. Doesn't help those that need to commute to Browns plains/Logan/Ipswich. There are buses but they aren't the fastest or most reliable. Span of hours comes into play. You can compare the bus network to the station similar to Lawnton-Strathpine or Dakabin-Morayfield in that the bus takes too long/doesn't have the frequency or it's far more relaxed to drive to the station and not have to worry about the fail of a pt network. You can have a rough framework but it has to be adapted and at times resumptions must be made for it to work.

[JimmyP]

It's not specifically about putting a TOD at every station. It's about changing the way we think about entire town and city planning.

It also doesn't specifically have to be a rail station, it can easily be somewhere else as long as there are good active and public transport links to surrounding areas.

Also, Richlands has had a large amount of residential built (townhouses) in walking distance to the station over the past couple years, as well as increased retail etc. The area in general is definitely still car orientated, however it does have some better active transport (mainly walking) facilities/infrastructure. Still only painted bicycle gutters though.

[#Metro]

Also, Richlands has had a large amount of residential built (townhouses) in walking distance to the station over the past couple years, as well as increased retail etc. The area in general is definitely still car orientated, however it does have some better active transport (mainly walking) facilities/infrastructure. Still only painted bicycle gutters though.

Bicycle lanes should definitely be more than a pained lane. In Copenhagen in the suburban areas they are a raised step between the road and the footpath.

This is a map of Rinkeby in Sweden. It fits the bill as a TOD. It has an 600 m radius centred around a Metro station (T) and encloses ~ 20,000 people. As you can see there is still a motorway connection on the edge, as even here, people still need to use cars to some extent.

What are member's thoughts about Rinkeby? 

Rinkeby
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinkeby

Rinkeby - metro station at the centre


Rinkeby - Street Level
 

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> 'We haven't seen this since the early 2000s': Fears transport may falter as population powers past

Brisbane will need more medium-density housing, such as townhouses, to combat the pressures of a growing population, but experts fear development in public transport infrastructure will not meet demand.

The issue is expected to worsen as commuters living in outer suburbs struggle to travel to the CBD, with car parks at some train stations starting to fill by 6am.

University of Queensland population geographer Elin Charles-Edwards said analysis had shown even if CBD employees limited their travel from suburbs – for example, by working from home one day a week – the cohort was a small share of the total employed population in Brisbane, and therefore, there would be little effect.

During COVID-19, Brisbane's CBD reported a decline in population because of closed borders and fewer international students and migrants, and, as a result, urban areas grew faster.

But now, Charles-Edwards said the latest population data was "going gangbusters".

"We haven't seen levels like this since the late '90s, early 2000s," she said. "The question is really how long will this be sustained for?" ....

... "There's almost inevitably a delay in getting that heavy rail infrastructure to get it out there. And this is the consequences of what we're seeing now."

A spokeswoman from the Department of Main Roads and Transport said there was demand for parking at train stations, and the department continued to conduct annual surveys on the use of all parking sites.

Often, many car parks "were at capacity by 9am", the spokeswoman said.

The surveys are used to identify where targeted investment in parking or connecting bus services might be required in future. ... 

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1569331781475921920

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1569332163845439493

[JimmyP]

"A spokeswoman from the Department of Main Roads and Transport said there was demand for parking at train stations"

Of course there is, because bugger all buses actually feed the stations!! And the ones that do are usually on a pathetically poor frequency

[#Metro]

Buses generally result in connections that are 2x slower than by simply taking a car.

However, with motorised scooters, I think this can also become a good feeder mode.

The 'taking bus' delay is a result of access to the stop (walking), frequency (wait time), the actual route taken (does it do a mini-safari tour first?) and stopping at other stops for passengers.

The key thing with the parking is that it needs to be charged for so that parking is rationed. This gives an incentive for passengers who do have convenient access to buses to use them (or cycle).

A 500-pax car park @ $2 per day will generate a stream of revenue of:
$2 x 500 car parks x 5 days/week x 52 weeks = $260,000 per year. (e.g. $520 per car park/year).

That revenue could be applied to operating buses or other station improvements.

The car park is a net cost as Construction > Revenue for the car park, but the same thing could also be said about the feeder buses going to the station.

[HappyTrainGuy]

"A spokeswoman from the Department of Main Roads and Transport said there was demand for parking at train stations"

Of course there is, because bugger all buses actually feed the stations!! And the ones that do are usually on a pathetically poor frequency

What the hell are you talking about. The 314 has an excellent frequency as a feeder.

[achiruel]

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/federal/zombies-return-as-cost-blowouts-and-unfunded-programs-hit-budget-20221018-p5bqqu.html

The commuter car park fund, created in the 2019 budget, was originally expected to spend $500 million.

As of March, $674 million had been set aside for car parks. Just $50.9 million worth of projects had been completed while another $192 million was officially under way.

Since the election, the new government has found even more cost pressures on the program. In some cases, just $1 million or $5 million was committed to car parks which have proven to be far more expensive to build.

So car parks are even more expensive to build than originally planned. What a surprise! 

Beyond time to stop building car parks and improve bus & active transport connections to railway stations. I understand that there are areas where car parks are inevitable, such as the Sunshine Coast Line and west of Ipswich, but in the metro footprint, I think we need to stop expanding them.

[ozbob]

Interesting blog article by Daniel Bowen.

Food for thought ...

Parking permits and free Myki

> https://www.danielbowen.com/2022/10/22/parking-permits-and-free-myki/

[ozbob]

Couriermail Quest --> No cash, no timeline to fix notorious Altandi park n ride $


Altandi station has high patronage, putting prssure on the park n ride. Picture: Steve Pohlner

Three hundred commuters battle for just 87 spaces, motorists risk thefts and even assaults, but there is still no cash in sight for an upgrade at this southside park n ride.

No cash and no timeframe.

There is still no upgrade in sight for an overcrowded park n ride on Brisbane's southside more almost one year on from a consultation report into a fix.

An initial Department of Transport and Main Roads (DTMR) survey almost four years ago into options to upgrade the facility found, even back then, that 300 people tried to park at the Altandi park n ride, an 87-space facility, on an average week day.

The fierce competition has led to road rage incidents and numerous cases of people parking in the sole disabled bay or risking fines for illegal parking.

Those who missed out on spots were forced to risk parking in dimly-lit surrounding streets, where youths have broken into vehicles. ...

[achiruel]

Considering the frequency of buses that service Mains Rd just outside Altandi Station, I don't see any great need to increase car parking here. Having said that, signange directing people to/from the bus stops could definitely be improved, and I'd like to see more priority given to pedestrians crossing Mains Rd—sometimes it takes quite a while to get a green signal to cross.

[Jonno]

Couriermail Quest --> No cash, no timeline to fix notorious Altandi park n ride $


Altandi station has high patronage, putting prssure on the park n ride. Picture: Steve Pohlner

Three hundred commuters battle for just 87 spaces, motorists risk thefts and even assaults, but there is still no cash in sight for an upgrade at this southside park n ride.

No cash and no timeframe.

There is still no upgrade in sight for an overcrowded park n ride on Brisbane's southside more almost one year on from a consultation report into a fix.

An initial Department of Transport and Main Roads (DTMR) survey almost four years ago into options to upgrade the facility found, even back then, that 300 people tried to park at the Altandi park n ride, an 87-space facility, on an average week day.

The fierce competition has led to road rage incidents and numerous cases of people parking in the sole disabled bay or risking fines for illegal parking.

Those who missed out on spots were forced to risk parking in dimly-lit surrounding streets, where youths have broken into vehicles. ...

           

[Jonno]

https://twitter.com/urbanmelb/status/1671087043563356160?

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Sydney_Stations/status/1670997331590905856

[Jonno]

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Private car park abuse continues as minister Mark Bailey weighs options $

Drivers increasingly overstaying their welcome at private car parks across the state could have free rein, as Transport Minister Mark Bailey reveals his next move in the stoush against parking operators over a database loophole.

Private parking operators have been calling for clarity nearly six months after Mr Bailey hit pause on the ability of third parties to gather motorists' information through government databases then issue them with $88 "parking breaches". ....

[ozbob]

LOL!

Couriermail --> Private parking war heats up as companies accuse Bailey of poor consultation $

Private parking operators fear there is no viable way forward in the ongoing stoush with the government over a database loophole after Transport Minister Mark Bailey opened up consultation process lasting only days.

It comes as businesses warn the battle against drivers who overstay at private car parks will only get worse.

Mr Bailey hit "pause" on the ability for third parties to gather motorists' information through government databases in February after it was revealed companies were using the method to issue drivers with $88 "parking breaches".

He recently made clear the status quo was out of the question and two options were on the table; no release of motorist data to private parking operators without a court order or a blanket ban. ...

[Jonno]

How inconvenient for TMR and BCC

https://twitter.com/dmtrubman/status/1695136382476271717?

[ozbob]

In Queensland --> How suburban Springfield created the world's best commuter park-and-ride

Springfield Central Park 'n' Ride was recognised on a global platform, after being awarded in the Rail/Transit category at the Engineering News-Record (ENR) Global Best Project Awards. ...

 

[#Metro]

The Springfield P&R is apparently built to be TOD-convertible.

If the site's parking needs change, the structure can be adapted for retail and commercial purposes in a staged fashion.

[Jonno]

https://x.com/pia_qld/status/1745600338655342681?

[ozbob]

Post by @danielbowen.au

View on Threads

[Jonno]

Greens to review Parking Minimums with a view to removal in well serviced locations .

https://x.com/greaterbne/status/1752589041240092957?

[ozbob]

https://x.com/ozbob13/status/1788256270350451158

[Jonno]

Could? 

There is not a lot of research around that shows it doesn't!!

It's gaurenteed!!

[Jonno]

Finally but very limited.  No doubt a decade trail

https://x.com/pia_qld/status/1790856541891121385