Richlands to Springfield Central - Stage 2

[#Metro]

The only ones who don't get the picture are _____MUFFINS!______________________

Muffins!

PS: There is scope for BRT feeding rail here, regardless of what happens. Surely they don't expect everyone to walk to the station.

[ozbob]

Winner!  A ' no station muffin ' ...

The 'Ellen Grove' walking bus -->

[colinw]

A double standard appears to have emerged.

From the Moreton Bay Rail Link Change report, dated November 16, 2010.

5.2 Stations

The FIASR recommended that Kinsellas Road Station not be constructed until 2025. This
recommendation will not be adopted and all six stations will be constructed as part of the
MBRL Project. The six stations will be located at:
• Kallangur
• Murrumba Downs
• Mango Hill
• Kinsellas Road East
• Rothwell
• Kippa-Ring

So Kinsellas Road get the nod, but Springfield Lakes & Ellen Grove do not.  Amazing!

[#Metro]

The rail alignment is generally designed for 100km/h.

Wooo!

This recommendation will not be adopted because of the recent planning approval given to Urbex for a development south of the proposed railway and all six stations will be constructed as part of the MBRL Project

TODification is the driver there IMHO.

[Gazza]

The Springfield Lakes station makes absolute sense for the reasons stated.

But Ellen Grove puzzles me, it's a suburb with 3 big streets, with everybody living on acreage with zero commercial activity....If this were Perth you'd never put a station in an area with land use like that.
....If the ULDA had their eyes on the area, and were going to buy up the whole suburb and turn it into an area of suitable density, then fair enough put a station there with that development.
The proposed location mooted in that pdf is quite frankly, p%ss poor.

[somebody]

But Ellen Grove puzzles me, it's a suburb with 3 big streets, with everybody living on acreage with zero commercial activity....If this were Perth you'd never put a station in an area with land use like that.

One would presume it should be developed soon.  It doesn't make much sense to have acreage in the suburbs to me, but you could also use that argument for Pinjarra Hills and vicinity.

[colinw]

But Ellen Grove puzzles me, it's a suburb with 3 big streets, with everybody living on acreage with zero commercial activity....

True, but there's not much within walk-up distance of Richlands either.

Ellen Grove puts a station within reach of Carole Park, Ellen Grove, the southern parts of Forest Lake, and just off the Logan Motorway.  Not as good a location for a station as some, but fail to provide it and that is a bunch of people who are going to stay in their car the whole way.

Hopefully the station plus some appropriate zoning changes (?) would drive higher density anyway.  Ellen Grove is far too close in to be allowing acreage development.

[ozbob]

Ellen Grove is very essential, will also take a fair bit of pressure off Richlands.  Ellen Grove is very convenient for large parts of Forest Lake and Carole Park.

Ellen Grove could be the next extension of the Springfield line if it was staged.

[colinw]

Google Maps: Future Ellen Grove station site & surrounds

Google Maps: Future Kinsellas Road station site & surrounds, same scale.

Tell me again which one we should be building now?

[#Metro]

Both of them should be built really. I can see a shadow of a road layout for the Kinsellas road proposed rail station.

[colinw]

I'm somewhat dubious about that whole Kinsellas road area, as I believe it is very low lying & potentially prone to storm surge damage.

My point is that if Kinsellas Road is getting a station - and it is - then there is no way Ellen Grove, with nearby suburbia and right on top of a motorway junction, should miss out.

[Gazza]

Hopefully the station plus some appropriate zoning changes (?) would drive higher density anyway.  Ellen Grove is far too close in to be allowing acreage development.

By all means, if an appropriate structure plan is developed for Ellen Grove then integrate the station in with that, but at the present time it would just become a glorified park and ride.

The distance from Richlands to Ellen Grove will only be about 2.2 km.
Again, going back to the Perth example, stations in the outer suburbs can be spaced significantly further than this, even when there is continuous urban development beside the track!
See: http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=gwelup,+Western+Australia&sll=-31.87559,115.81079&sspn=0.026531,0.06536&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Gwelup+Western+Australia&ll=-31.872456,115.802336&spn=0.053355,0.13072&t=h&z=14
And http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Jandakot,+Western+Australia&sll=-31.872456,115.802336&sspn=0.053355,0.13072&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Jandakot+Western+Australia&ll=-32.114422,115.871429&spn=0.105848,0.26144&t=h&z=13
for instance...

In our Brisbane example, Springfield Lakes makes sense to avoid the "backtracking" effect, but for Carole Park, I'd imagine people would just take a short bus ride north to Richlands, as would happen in comparable situations in Perth. Bear in mind a nice new cycle path exists from Carole Park to Richlands, so people there could easily use active transport...it's hardly a taxing distance!

To get Ellen Grove to 'work' won't be a simple as building a station. The centenary highway presents a natural barrier at the moment, so a pedestrian bridge to serivce people from Carole Park would be neccessary (Currently, the only way to cross the freeway to go right down the Roxwell street underpass....So there's 10 mil you'd have to spend straight up to make it accessible to them (Using the price of the new Toowong pedestrian overpass as a benchmark)

As for everyone else mentioned in the service area (Eg southern Forest Lake) , its inevitably going to be a feeder bus solution since Ellen Grove forms an impermeable barrier to walk up patronage, and the actual edge of Forest lake is 1km away from the track...
The streets run the wrong way in Ellen Grove itself, so even within the suburb itself access is difficult because you'd have to walk 3 sides of a square.
If is the aforementioned feeder bus solution, then isn't it better to funnel everyone into a hub like Richlands, then split the pax?

To sum at At the present time, by all means push for Springfield Lakes, but to me the current very low density blob that is Ellen Grove is not worth the investment until such time as a plan is developed that will rework the land use of the area, and then develop the station simultaneously with this development (As was done with Varsity Station Village)

True, but there's not much within walk-up distance of Richlands either.

Richlands is fortunate in that its not lots of smaller parcels of lands like Ellen Grove, and it is quite unoccupied so buying up for Redevelopment is straightforward. We're already seeing stuff like that new development by AV Jennings, and more will inevitably come.
Doing the same in Ellen Grove could take years.

Same can be said for Kinsellas Road, it's greenfield with no existing subvision to cause difficulties, so getting the land built up around the station will be easy compared to Ellen Grove.

[#Metro]

Would designing the lines for higher speed (e.g. 130 km/hour) improve the speed overall/be worth it? If cars on the freeway are going at 100-110km, surely a higher speed would allow an edge over the car.

[ozbob]

Access will be made to into Ellen Grove as it has been done for Richlands.  I was there at Progress Corner three years ago, the changes are substantial from the paddock to what it is now.

Richlands will be swamped, Ellen Grove is going to be very useful, just have a look at the maps.  There is a lot more to come.

Not building the stations at Ellen Grove and Springfield Lakes greenfield is going to be another costly blunder, to come back and do them brownfield is just so typical of the flawed planning and transport paradigms in south-east Queensland.  At least for MBRL there does seem some committment to stations which are actually essential for folks to hop onto the train.

[ozbob]

The announcement who (Construction Alliance) has got the Richlands to Springfield contract should be forthcoming shortly as well.

You never know, might be a change in plans ...  

[Golliwog]

TT, I doubt upping hte design speed would be worth it. They had a corner of radius ~250m for a design speed of 50km/hr but the lowest for 100km/hr was ~850m it would require the curves to all be redesigned and so would everything inbetween and given this is a suburban line where they will be stopping every station I doubt they would get up to 130 for very long anyway.

[Gazza]

Richlands will be swamped,

In what way?
If it's swamped by park and riders then they can go jump  since they don't contribute enough to patronage totals. But I find it hard to see how the station would be swamped by people arriving by other means, to the point that the station becomes unusable. 

Here's a good presentation from Perth: Application of a Commuter Railway to Low Density Settlement
http://www.bitre.gov.au/publications/18/Files/Peter_Martinovich.pdf

It sums up well why wider station spacing can work better in low density areas (Page 18 in particular).

[ozbob]

As you have shown with your BRT ideas for Richlands, Ellen Grove is going to be very handy.

Richlands will be swamped by cars, the sad thing is that with the interim timetable which is not going to be the best I expect, the chance to get bus right from the outset is missed.  Whether one cares little for the park and riders matters not, the fact is the whole area from Richlands out to Springfield and beyond is very car dependent.  The car park size of 650 is also there for a reason, but the reality is that is effectively one train load.  The absence of any public plans for bus is also a little puzzling.

Richlands was just a paddock or two a few years ago.  Big changes going on, one needs to take the blinkers off and look what happened to Richlands. The stations at Ellen Grove and Springfield Lakes are planned for a reason. Simply having a station at Richlands and Springfield is not going to be that successful for many of the car dependent mob.  Proper feeder bus into the local stations as well as active options will work well.  I have spent the last few years talking to the locals, they want the stations too.  Community needs transcends individual ideology.

[Gazza]

I guess I'm just going by what we were taught in local planning...What is happening around Richlands is great, but the issue for Ellen Grove is that it's not true greenfield like Richlands was (Because the land is fully occupied, just in a really low density manner)
That is the key difference between Richlands and Ellen Grove.
So redevelopment of the suburb becomes difficult, and the same challenges are faced anywhere you attempt urban consolidation like this where there are lots of individual land owners...It's why when land becomes available in one big chunk, such as Hamilton North Shore, that they jump on it, because its so much easier to do a vision for a large area.

[#Metro]

Thanks.
Bring on the BRT!!!

The shocker is that the train looks like it will be a 30 minute frequency. AAARGH!!!

[mufreight]

Sorry to burst the baloon Gazza but the construction of the station at EllenGrove is a logical move on the following basis.
Cost, a station is to be built there at some time, construction costs building the station now as a greenfield will be possibly only 2/3 the cost of constructing the same facility as a brownfield project on a line under traffic.
Amenity, The opening of the Richlands Station will draw patronage not presently using public transport, there is currently development now taking place in proximity to the station that was not contemplated two years ago when the Richlands site was a bare paddock.
Similar development will take place in EllenGrove.
Parking, On the opening of Richlands the 650 spaces there will be quickly absorbed by many commuters currently using Gailes, Wacol and Darra, commuters from Forest Lake and from the western fringes of Springfield would quickly fill up a similar to Richlands size (650 space) car park at EllenGrove.
The earthworks and bridgeworks for the line are almost complete to the site of the EllenGrove station and a station on that site could be comissioned and brought into service before the end of 2011 depending on the actual construction of the station facitlity.
Might I respectfully suggest that much of what you have been taught in local planning might have been more of an exercise in social engineering, planning in my understanding is simply that, planning for and providing for future public demand and failing to construct the station facilities at EllenGrove as a greenfield construction fails that criteria

[somebody]

Yes, I'm sure the station at Ellen Grove will be required eventually.

[#Metro]

I guess I'm just going by what we were taught in local planning...What is happening around Richlands is great, but the issue for Ellen Grove is that it's not true greenfield like Richlands was (Because the land is fully occupied, just in a really low density manner)
That is the key difference between Richlands and Ellen Grove.
So redevelopment of the suburb becomes difficult, and the same challenges are faced anywhere you attempt urban consolidation like this where there are lots of individual land owners...It's why when land becomes available in one big chunk, such as Hamilton North Shore, that they jump on it, because its so much easier to do a vision for a large area.

I agree here. Your point seems to be that there are a number of parties to deal with now, rather than a handful of land owners- it only takes 1 to throw a spanner into the works and also there will be the NIMBY factor to deal with too.

On the other hand, a station perhaps further south (Still at Ellen Grove) would allow a simplified and more direct feeder bus network to be designed. It could also easily be fed from the motorway. The improved land values and perhaps re-zoning will set up incentives that will make it favorable for those lots to be developed or become attractive to a developer.

So I'm leaning towards it being built. Once again core rail frequency will be the key issue. Every 30 minutes is just not good enough IMHO.

[Gazza]

It could also easily be fed from the motorway.

In what way?
These are the current 3 nearest exists to Ellen Grove, in the purple circles. (I'm working off the assumption that the station would in fact be moved further south)

[mufreight]

Gazza, forget the Motorway other than the barrier that it presents in terms of access,
Most of thye area bounded by Considine, Roxwell and Woogaroo Streets and Waterford Road is slated for development and as portions are developed the increases in rates will force further development.
At the present time there is sufficent density from the Forest Lake area that would feed the station at EllenGrove, a usage that would be encouraged by the lack of parking at Richlands, a 250 space carpark at EllenGrove would relieve the anticipated parking shortfall at Richlands as there is not space at Richlands to further extend the car parking there other than to add more floors to the existing two story car parking.
A 250/300 car space can readily be constructed at EllenGrove for far less cost.
The object of building the Springfield line is to provide public transport and reduce the dependency on private car usage not to force more to lengthen their commute by car.

[ozbob]

Just attended announcement by Premier at Richlands station. Springfield underway, Springfield Lakes station to be built greenfield as well.  More later.  Just pulling in to Darra onboard SMU 269 ...

New Transport Minister, the Member for Inala.

Annastacia Palaszczuk - State Member for Inala, managed to have a brief chat with the new Minister at Richlands station this morning.

[ozbob]

At the announcement by Premier and Ministers Nolan and Palaszczuk, of Springfield rail at Richlands Station 20th February 2011





























Springfield here we come!





Photographs R Dow 20th February 2011

[somebody]

Is Nolan returning to the back bench or a different portfolio?

[ozbob]

Minister Nolan is going to Arts and Finance.

[#Metro]

Richlands looks fantastic.
Frequency can be fixed later- the main thing is that the station is there. 

[Stillwater]

The Ministerial shake-up is interesting.  Previously, Stirling Hinchliffe was Minister for Infrastructure and Planning and had oversight of the Coordinator-General.  Mr Lucas now takes on planning and Mr Fraser (Treasurer) assumes responsibility for State Development, and also the Coordinator-General, who has been answerable to Mr Hinchliffe up until now.

Let's take the case of a major piece of transport infrastructure.  The plan is worked up in Transport and Main Roads, but how does inter-governmental liaison occur across departments -- transport with planning and transport and planning with state development/Treasury?

Will Transport and Main Roads become the Department of Infrastructure?  What portfolio responsibilities will Mr Hinchliffe have?  And will there be a Minister for Public Transport?

[ozbob]

Media Release 20 February 2011

SEQ:  Changes in Transport, Springfield rail here we come!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has thanked Minister Rachel Nolan for her role as Transport Minister and congratulates Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk on her appointment as Transport Minister.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The Premier of Queensland, accompanied by Ministers Nolan and Palaszczuk today at Richlands rail station announced that Springfield railway construction including stations at Springfield and Springfield Lakes, with early works for Ellen Grove station is to commence this year with the successful awarding of the construction contract to the Trackstar Alliance."

"The Premier also announced that the new Transport Minister will be Annastacia Palaszczuk and Minister Nolan is to move to Finance and Arts."

"We congratulate the new Transport Minister on her appointment, but particularly wish to thank and acknowledge the contributions to Transport made by Minister Nolan.  We appreciate greatly the opportunity to put our view point as part of the democratic process.  Minister Nolan has always listened and that is important."

Reference:

1. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3940.msg48262#msg48262

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[colinw]

 

Looking forward to riding the train to Springfield in a couple of years time.  Bring it on!

[Gazza]

Yay at least Springfield Lakes is going in greenfield.
As for Ellen Grove being missing, I'm not shedding an tears on that one....Ever been to stations like Holmview or Edens Landing? Yeah, that's what Ellen Grove would have been like patronage wise if it were built today.

[mufreight]

Apart from the actual track and station the formation to Ellengrove is virtualy complete now and services could be extended to there as early as the end of this year as an intrim measure, this would increase the catchment for the Richlands line much quicker and with parking at Richlans at present over 80% of capacity and filling provide further parking to encourage more patronage, sorry Gazza but people can not and will not use a service that does not exist and Ellengrove would service a large section of Forest Lake at a minimal cost taking more cars off the Centenary Highway.

[Gazza]

sorry Gazza but people can not and will not use a service that does not exist and Ellengrove would service a large section of Forest Lake at a minimal cost taking more cars off the Centenary Highway.

The service does exist. What I don't get is why all of Forest Lake cant just use Richlands. All the main roads in the suburb flush out onto Richlands stations doorstep, so its not as if the geography doesn't support this.

It's not possible for someone from Forest Lake to get onto the Centenary without first driving past Richlands!

And this is what I don't get. Perth is frequently lauded for how effective its rail network is, and its cited on here as an example to follow, yet you're ignoring one of the things that makes it work...Wider spaced stations! A patch of houses near the alignment isn't an excuse to stop the train there. Have a look at the land use between Mandurah and Warnbro to the north for instance: http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=mandurah&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Mandurah+Western+Australia&gl=au&ll=-32.430397,115.786972&spn=0.215596,0.528374&t=h&z=12
The land along the coast is populated in a continuous strip (Port Kennedy, Golden Bay, Singleton, Madora Bay etc) Each of these places is 3-5km apart, so there would be an obvious temptation to stop the train at each of the places. But they haven't because they recognise the trade-off between speed and number of stops, and as a result the train gets to run 23km unimpeded.

Again, that pdf I posted earlier has some pretty good points in it.

-Newer stations in Perth actually serve a catchment area of 25sqm, and a population of 90,000-100,000.

-Stations are spaced at a minimum of every 3km on average.

So this is my fundamental question:
If Perth is able to build stations to cater to a catchment 100,000 people, and feed many them in by bus, why would Forest Lakes' 20,000 people overwhelm Richlands? It's only 1/5 of the people!

And about Ellen Grove being better for feeders.

Lets say someone boards at Forest Lake Plaza on the 465 feeder to Richlands. Its a 4.3km trip, and takes 10 mins according to the timetable. Its going at 26 km/h.

Now lets say Ellen Grove existed, and someone took a feeder from the same location, but to Ellen Grove, since it's the closer station now. I'm assuming the feeder just goes along direct along Grand Ave and up Considine St to the proposed station location. That is a 3.4km trip. Going at 26 km/h like the other bus, it would take 8 minutes.

So 10 minutes to Richlands on the bus versus 8 minutes to Ellen Grove.
Part of this two minute time saving would be eaten up by the train trip from Ellen Grove to Richlands, plus the dwell at Richlands itself.

So is the advantage actually there?

[somebody]

Got to side with Gazza on this one.  There is little reason in having a station at Ellen Grove NOW.  It hasn't been developed yet.

[Gazza]

And before anyone jumps in with "It would be cheaper to build it greenfield"

-The life cycle costs of a building are approx 10 times the original construction cost. So for many years we would be paying to staff, run and maintain a facility that wouldn't get used much for the first few years.

-I don't think the savings are as as much as they're made out to be. Both elsewhere in Australia and here in Qld stations have been built on existing lines and there seems to be little difference between new and otherwise.
Eg,
$25 Million for Varsity Lakes.
$22.5 Million for the Narangba Rebuild.

-If we wait till the suburb is redeveloped, we could get them to foot part of the bill  

[somebody]

Sorry, are you saying to build Ellen Grove later?  I don't see enough of a reason to leave this undone and come back later.  Just that I don't see the merit in making the current one station branch a two station branch.

[Gazza]

So when would you build it?