Coolangatta Line - Any Progress?

[TruemanQLD]

I know the most recent (I thought?) LNP stance was that the Coolangatta line would be competed by 2018 in time for the Commonwealth Games. However, I havent heard anything in a while and there seems to be nothing in the media about it. Does anyone have an update as to the current plan? By 2018 the Light Rail will still only cover a small section of the Northern GC and will mean the Southern GC will remain the public transport wasteland it has been for many years now and be an international embarrassment.

[#Metro]

Rail construction costs easily cost $150 to $200 million per kilometre and have a long lead time.
Catch the bus.

I would prefer if the LRT consortia had their contract extended well into the future (say 45 years) so they invest into the LRT system extensions. LRT is going to be the big success story for the GC.

[TruemanQLD]

Rail construction costs easily cost $150 to $200 million per kilometre and have a long lead time.
Catch the bus.

I would prefer if the LRT consortia had their contract extended well into the future (say 45 years) so they invest into the LRT system extensions. LRT is going to be the big success story for the GC.

Well I dont live in the area anymore and my question was less about whether people agreed with it or not, more what the current situation is. Also the idea that bus services to Varsity Lakes/Robina from places like Tugun and Coolangatta would get you into the CBD in a similar time as a train is laughable. The current plan is fantastic for the long forgotten Southern GC and Tweed area. Tallebudgera Station will provide great access to Burleigh Heads, Elanora will provide access to Currumbin and Palm Beach and Coolangatta Airport will make travel out of OOL significantly easier (Tugun Station is the only one I do not think is necessary). I am not going to pretend it is the most crucial rail project on the table at the moment, however it was promised (not that it means anything) and I am interested to know if it will happen.

[#Metro]

Ferrari is better than Holden Commodores in every respect. Except one. Cost.

I'm not denying a bus isn't the best solution, but it is a sufficient solution and one that is cheap, fast to put on etc. GC highway is a nice fast road as well.

To answer your question

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/robina-varsity-lakes-rail-extension-states-most-expensive/story-e6freoof-1225809975822

Nothing is going to happen unless funding is secured. With a structural deficit at the Fed level and deficits at the state level plus a PM who said no funding to rail, you can kiss the plan goodbye I think. Unlikely to happen until 2050 I think at this rate.

Hence my suggestion for extending the contract on GoldLinQ so they extend the LRT system.

[SurfRail]

The figures GCCC has run indicate that heavy rail to Elanora and light rail only south of there to the border would generate something like 6 times the patronage for cheaper outlay.

[TruemanQLD]

The cost figures for Varsity Lakes were known about when LNP 'promised' the project. LRT is not helpful for people wishing to commute into the city and a heavy rail link is a necessity for Southern GC. Not to mention a Coolangatta station would get great use on weekends from people going to surf 

The problem with the GC Highway route is that it runs right along the ocean so isnt 'central', especially on the southern GC. Not forgetting there isnt any parking, so unless you live within 0.5-1km from the GC Highway, you wont use it. Thats the current problem with the bus system, for people wanting to get to Robina from, say, Currumbin Waters you need to catch a half-hourly bus to the GC Highway then connect to a bus that runs 15-mins to Robina from there. Or you could drive in 15mins. So people arent going to take this option to connect to a train into Brisbane. However, they will drive 5-10mins to lots of parking at Elanora/Tallebudgera station and take a 15min peak hour train into the city from there. Easily save 30mins+.

[SurfRail]

The cost figures for Varsity Lakes were known about when LNP 'promised' the project. LRT is not helpful for people wishing to commute into the city and a heavy rail link is a necessity for Southern GC. Not to mention a Coolangatta station would get great use on weekends from people going to surf 

The problem with the GC Highway route is that it runs right along the ocean so isnt 'central', especially on the southern GC. Not forgetting there isnt any parking, so unless you live within 0.5-1km from the GC Highway, you wont use it. Thats the current problem with the bus system, for people wanting to get to Robina from, say, Currumbin Waters you need to catch a half-hourly bus to the GC Highway then connect to a bus that runs 15-mins to Robina from there. Or you could drive in 15mins. So people arent going to take this option to connect to a train into Brisbane. However, they will drive 5-10mins to lots of parking at Elanora/Tallebudgera station and take a 15min peak hour train into the city from there. Easily save 30mins+.

Or they could just as easily catch the bus to the station at Elanora.  There isn't going to be a lot of parking there.

I'm sold on GCCC's concept.  It makes an enormous amount of sense if you look at the topography of the area.  South of Elanora, virtually all of the population and activity generators ARE on the Gold Coast Highway or just off it.  Rail trips make up less than 20% or less of the total public transport patronage on the Gold Coast.  That means most people are travelling locally, which means by bus for the most part until the light rail starts running.  Light rail is going to offer considerably greater patronage gains than any HR extension in SEQ, in the GCCC area or outside it.

The only thing of note which is not on the indicative rapid transit route between Currumbin Creek and Tweed Heads is the John Flynn Hospital, and I am not convinced that deserves anything more than a reasonably frequent bus route.  If the railway is extended past Elanora, the Tugun station would probably be the main park'n'ride for that part of the Gold Coast and it would allow access to the hospital but that should not be the main reason to build it.

People are overwhelmingly leaving the Gold Coast Airport to head somewhere local, not to Brisbane or beyond.  That means a light rail service to the coastal corridor benefits them more.  People who want to head further north can just change at Elanora for a train until the railway makes it way south to the airport.

A station at the airport is as far south as it will go, and I believe that is very much a second or third tier priority for public transport on the Gold Coast.  For me the priorities are (in declining order):

- Removing the last high-floor buses from service, expanding the fleet by about 100 buses to allow for more high-frequency line-haul and feeder routes, and building a new depot in the Robina/Burleigh area to eliminate dead running and make the network more efficient

- Light rail extensions (my preferred outcome after 30 years or so is lines to Parkwood, Paradise Point (or beyond) and The Spit in the north, and lines to Robina, Elanora and Tweed Heads in the south)

- Bus rapid transit type measures (eg high-frequency line from Helensvale to Robina via current Route 715 merged with current Route 747 and with signature bus stops en route, more bus lanes and transit lanes where feasible for trunk routes like the 740 and 750)

- Coomera River duplication

- Cross River Rail

- Elanora extension

- Coolangatta extension and infill stations to Beenleigh right on the bottom rung.

[#Metro]

LRT is not helpful for people wishing to commute into the city and a heavy rail link is a necessity for Southern GC. Not to mention a Coolangatta station would get great use on weekends from people going to surf

This is true, but it is also true that the utility of a project is captured simply by it's NPV which, in the real world, would mean patronage. If the LRT has 6x more pax than the train under the modelling, then one would think that we would build the project that has the greatest utility first.

It is true that this would not help people wanting to go to Brisbane to access the higher paying jobs, but it is also true that this would greatly increase patronage on that line, which would mean more trains required and more paths, and that's going to be a real problem with the bottleneck at Merivale Bridge.

So I think it doesn't quite make sense to extend a line at one end when the other end is choked.

If people want to make a trip that distance, and this is something that people are not going to like me saying, move closer.

[TruemanQLD]

I believe the former Qld govt mentioned numbers of $1-2B to finish it. I thought then and now this seems costly, not sure why. Overall I suspect in about 12-18mths time construction projects will see lower costs as the mineral related projects run out which will see a drop in wages costs for projects. Remember the first part of the GC line was done for about $450m and that got nearly 40km of track, mostly single track and a few stations and this was barely 20 years ago.

I think ultimately the GC will have a Light Rail corridor down the Coast and a Heavy Rail corridor out in the suburbs and these will meet at Parkwood and Coolangatta. In between will be covered by buses (and maybe long term, more Light Rail). The question is when, not if. That was more my question at the start. I think as long as the tunnels/bridges are done so they can easily be widened to dual track, there would be no issue with single rail from Varsity Lakes in the short term. I would expect that it will never be dual track from Tugun to Coolangatta as it will be a tunnel and is really unnecessary. It is an incredible shame that LNP governments do not appreciate the benefits of rail. I am under no illusion that this is much less important than CRR, but really should be on the priority list. Would an airport extra charge help towards funding it? Any locals can simply use the Tugun station, and then the Coolangatta can be for airport users. It would primarily be so anyway, as Coolangatta would not have free-parking.

[SurfRail]

I don't think the long term savings justify single track anywhere anymore.

I would never support leaving the Coomera River bridge single tracked, and I can't imagine QR would either.

It really is better to just do these things properly.  Encouraging half-formed projects is a bad idea because they are already terrible at executing them (eg Corinda to Darra).

[ozbob]

Agree double track essential.

[ozbob]

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9947.msg126335#msg126335

[TruemanQLD]

Your wife wants a 2 car garage, but you only have money for 1 and you have 80% finace on your house and credit cards are looking ugly, what do you do? Borrow money and build it anyway, build a 2 bay carport (ie no walls, for now) or leave it to another day?

If the traffic volume is unlikely to be there for at least a decade, then I would strongly suggest the cost deferment is justified and use the money to build something else in the mean time. If the traffic does come great you build, if not you have saved. I'm not sure more than a 30min timetable down this way will be justified for many years yet. Springfield and MBRL are different cases. orginally I thought the whole thing could be single track to the Airport, by the cross data shows otherwise, perhaps the 5km or so section in the middle is not worth leaving?

Coomera bridge, again where is the justification to duplicate? what is the benefit? On a 15min timetable there are no timetabled crosses due to the singe track on the Airport line. To me this project is so far down the track for duplication it doesn't even rate. If a train is late, so what you hold an outbound service 1-2min to pass, arrives at last few stations a few min late. The trains are travelling at 140km/hr, they cross the long bridge very quickly.

Well the final plan that I saw only had single tunnel under the OOL Runway so it will at least only be single between Tugun and OOL. I dont think that is unreasonable given it will be a 2-3min run time between the two stations. Obviously I would be in favour of dual track to Tugun but how long is it until we would see 15mins peak time to Tugun anyway? I think we are better off with a single track than no track. It is much more cost effective (long term) for dual track to be laid at the start but beggars cant be choosers.

They should at least lay dual track over Reedy Creek Rd as that is going to be an absolute nightmare for traffic so may as well do it all at once. Likewise, look at making the bridge over Bermuda Street able to be widened with little extra work.

[SurfRail]

Your wife wants a 2 car garage, but you only have money for 1 and you have 80% finace on your house and credit cards are looking ugly, what do you do? Borrow money and build it anyway, build a 2 bay carport (ie no walls, for now) or leave it to another day?

Reducing public infrastructure spending questions down to the scale household budgeting just doesn't work.  Seriously, just stop.

If the traffic volume is unlikely to be there for at least a decade, then I would strongly suggest the cost deferment is justified and use the money to build something else in the mean time. If the traffic does come great you build, if not you have saved. I'm not sure more than a 30min timetable down this way will be justified for many years yet. Springfield and MBRL are different cases. orginally I thought the whole thing could be single track to the Airport, by the cross data shows otherwise, perhaps the 5km or so section in the middle is not worth leaving?

I can't think of anything worse than building something which can only support 30 minute headways when the same funding could support an RTS extension capable of 8 trams per hour or better, and which would run right where people need to be.  The economic case just does not stack up for a railway extension at that kind of frequency.  Why would you bother?  Do it properly, or not at all.  I tend to "not at all" until a very long list of other things is finished.

Coomera bridge, again where is the justification to duplicate? what is the benefit? On a 15min timetable there are no timetabled crosses due to the singe track on the Airport line. To me this project is so far down the track for duplication it doesn't even rate. If a train is late, so what you hold an outbound service 1-2min to pass, arrives at last few stations a few min late. The trains are travelling at 140km/hr, they cross the long bridge very quickly.

No offence, but I can't even take that question seriously.  If you want to suggest a 15 minute timetable is all somebody should ever have and that we should continue running a system full of SPOFs and trains being held up for each other, fine.  Not under my watch though.

[colinw]

I darn well give up.  This group is broken beyond redemption.  Goodbye!

[BrizCommuter]

Coomera bridge, again where is the justification to duplicate? what is the benefit? On a 15min timetable there are no timetabled crosses due to the singe track on the Airport line. To me this project is so far down the track for duplication it doesn't even rate.

The duplication is pretty much necessary if you want any improvement to peak frequencies.

[SurfRail]

^ The argument is to duplicate the line as far as the bridge thresholds on either side but not the bridge section itself (about 1km or so).

I just can't see the logic in it.  You have crews in place, equipment in place, construction costs rising faster than ever before - about the only extra thing you might need is barges in the river and/or the creek to the south do piling (and I'm not even sure that is needed). 

Doing it up front is perfectly justified compared to the higher capital cost of deferring it.

[ozbob]

I darn well give up.  This group is broken beyond redemption.  Goodbye!

Thanks Colin for your comments and support over the years.

Providing users are posting with regard to the terms of use, I don't censor forum views that may not be in general agreement with the majority.
We never have.

[ozbob]

Coomera bridge, again where is the justification to duplicate? what is the benefit? On a 15min timetable there are no timetabled crosses due to the singe track on the Airport line. To me this project is so far down the track for duplication it doesn't even rate.

The duplication is pretty much necessary if you want any improvement to peak frequencies.

Sure is.  Hopefully can be done sooner than later ...

When TransLink was first formed they produced a discussion paper on the failure to duplicate the Gold Coast Line from the outset.  Was an interesting read, unfortunately I have not been able to track it down again.  Has anyone got a copy?

[ozbob]

Thanks, interesting document but that was 2007.

The document I am thinking of was a review of the Gold Coast Line and was from around 2004.  Might turn up.

[TruemanQLD]

If the Coolangatta line is done (and even if its not), what does everybody thing about running the Tilt Train to the GC and terminate at Robina (not that hard to schedule every Airport train during off-peak to run via Platform 1 while it is parked at Platform 2 as plenty of time between trains). 

The current timetabling has the Cairns service arriving at 9:10am into Roma Street (projected ~10:30am arrival at Robina) on Monday and Thursday and departing Roma Street at 6:25pm on Mondays and Fridays (so projected ~5pm departure from Robina). On Thursday-Friday the train can go back for MX (assuming at Mayne?) and can park in empty bays at Robina all day Monday. If the Merivale is an issue (which it shouldn't as its outside of peak / going opposite direction) then there is no reason I can see why it couldn't run via Tennyson.

If this proved successful, you could role it out to the Bundaberg/Rocky Tilt Train and even the Sunlander. This could allow the servicing of these trains to be switched to a new yard at Robina (or somewhere along the GC Line).

Adjusting the timetables allows an extra half-a-million residents to catch the train who wouldn't have previously when being able to just as quickly get to BNE than to Roma Street and also would have massive tourist potential for foreign tourists also looking to visit NQ.

The major hurdles in the plan that I can see are Robina would probably need a longer platform (should happen for CRR anyway) and train MX could prove problematic.

[SurfRail]

What about Ipswich, or Cleveland?  Both lines generate more patronage than the Gold Coast line...

We have a train every half hour, and it travels just as fast as the tilt can between the city and Beenleigh.  Beenleigh to Robina is only half an hour with stops, running non-stop would save you all of 10 minutes probably once you factor in accel and decel - and they leave from the same station (Roma St).

Same issue with running the XPT to Wollongong or Nowra.

[TruemanQLD]

Why not Ipswich or Cleveland? How many tourists that arent visiting family are going to Ipswich or Cleveland? Not many. However, I feel you have misinterpreted what I mean, I do not mean to run it to Robina to attract passengers for the Robina-Roma Street run, rather to attract passengers going all the way to Bundy/Rocky/Townsville or Cairns.

[somebody]

TruemanQLD, that would need some sort of overtaking move to not be hard up against the train in front.  The only place that could be done is along the triplicated section.

What happens when the tilt train runs late?  All hell would break lose.  You'd also need to use platfrom 2/3 at Roma St rather than 10.

[Old Northern Road]

Why not Ipswich or Cleveland? How many tourists that arent visiting family are going to Ipswich or Cleveland? Not many. However, I feel you have misinterpreted what I mean, I do not mean to run it to Robina to attract passengers for the Robina-Roma Street run, rather to attract passengers going all the way to Bundy/Rocky/Townsville or Cairns.

How many tourists want to travel to Robina?

[Old Northern Road]

I know the most recent (I thought?) LNP stance was that the Coolangatta line would be competed by 2018 in time for the Commonwealth Games. However, I havent heard anything in a while and there seems to be nothing in the media about it. Does anyone have an update as to the current plan? By 2018 the Light Rail will still only cover a small section of the Northern GC and will mean the Southern GC will remain the public transport wasteland it has been for many years now and be an international embarrassment.

I don't recall the LNP making any comments about the line to Coolangatta. Even the last GCCC transport plan only had the line built as far as Elanora. Anything further than that is in the well beyond 2031 timeframe. Obviously there is no point in any extension of the Gold Coast line until CRR is built.

[TruemanQLD]

How many tourists want to travel to Robina?

Fine, Nerang or Helensvale or Varsity, pick whatever one you want, Robina seems the most logical due to its more central location and better station facilities than any other Gold Coast stop.

[minbrisbane]

I don't think it's justified to run it to anywhere on the GC. 

[HappyTrainGuy]

The ETT's actually have Gold Coast programmed into the side PIDs.... It's done test runs down that way quite a few times and I think it's only done one charted run down there with passengers as a promo for the ETT introduction or something in the 90's. As you said the DTT will have issues on the Gold Coast line due to its length.

[petey3801]

Especially since the floods, the Tilts regularly run quite late. It would be a pathing nightmare and, as has been said already, there is already an adequate connection at Roma Street for the Gold Coast corridor.

The Electric Tilts simply don't have enough time (except for the Saturday arrival into Brisbane) to get to the Gold Coast and back as well as provisioning. They are also regularly late due to speed restrictions up north since the floods.

Another thing is the Tilt's often get washed once they arrive in Brisbane. The Electric Tilts are done a few times a week (with the Saturday arrival Tilt getting a full steam clean as well as an outside wash) and the DTT is done after every run (wash plan being available, of course).

I can see where you are coming from with the idea, but it's not really the best use of the Tilts and would be a timetabling nightmare most times..

[somebody]

Ooh Aah, the OP didn't last long around here.  Weird.