BaT - Bus and Train project (was UBAT, was no CRR)

[#Metro]

BaT will connect to the northern lines. Change trains at Roma Street.

[Jonno]

Close enough is good enough!!!

[The Reaper]

BaT will connect to the northern lines. Change trains at Roma Street.

I think the point is a lack of new capacity from the north, not a lack of connectivity...

[Jonno]

I honestly believe as Rail Back on Track we should be publically denouncing this project, It is simply robbing rail to pay for an attempt to improve the bus network that could be achived by implementing the Translink Network redesign.

[aldonius]

The bus component of the tunnel will just as convertible as the rest of the busway system is. It really would be very difficult to later dig a parallel-ish tunnel Buranda - CBD for the inevitable SEB metrofication.

Poor Northern and Southern surface connections can be sorted later; even for Trouts Rd. The BCR will be excellent for those, especially at the northern end. It wouldn't surprise me if the preliminary planning for them is finished by the end of BaT construction, after 4-5 years of Kippa-Ring boosting demand from the north.

The one thing which can't be dealt with later in a relatively straightforward fashion is (the lack of) Park Rd. It will be bloody obvious from Day 1 how much of a fail that is.

Anyway, we've seen what AM peak will look like, but not daytime offpeak. Hence I'll take the opportunity to present Frankenmap #2! (Overall map design/structure, line service levels & pairing guesses are mine. Styling is lifted fairly wholesale from MaxHeadway's Whistling Nixie's latest baby - never let it be said I don't learn from my betters.)
Also trying out some new accessibility symbols: accessible is no symbol, with-assistance is a purple triangle, unaccessible is a cross in a red circle.

Linky link.

[ozbob]

I honestly believe as Rail Back on Track we should be publically denouncing this project, It is simply robbing rail to pay for an attempt to improve the bus network that could be achived by implementing the Translink Network redesign.

Consistently pointing out the issues is what we have been doing.  Even direct to the project group.  These have been ignored.  Attend consultation sessions and push the issues.

My own personal view is that BaT really now depends on the state election due in 2015.  LNP successful, BaT and its flaws will probably proceed.  LNP not successful, I think there will be a reversion to CRR and sorting out the bus network.

[MaxHeadway]

Styling is lifted fairly wholesale from MaxHeadway's latest baby - never let it be said I don't learn from my betters.)

Your true betters (and mine) are the likes of Cameron Booth and Art Lebedev. I still have my L-plates on, to the point of only having stumbled upon the concept of colourspaces a week ago!  My combined rail & busway map really needs to have its colours revised to fall within the CMYK gamut, in case anyone were to waste dead trees printing it.

[aldonius]

Booth and Lebedev are both amazing.

Yeah, colourspaces are not fun (except in abstract). Case in point - when I print ^^^ on my home printer, the Kippa-Ring Springfield line comes out as a lovely dark teal, not the lovely light teal on my screen. Then again that printer is fairly buggered. So the even more important thing is to make sure your screen and printer are calibrated to each other!

[ozbob]

I honestly believe as Rail Back on Track we should be publically denouncing this project, It is simply robbing rail to pay for an attempt to improve the bus network that could be achived by implementing the Translink Network redesign.

Consistently pointing out the issues is what we have been doing.  Even direct to the project group.  These have been ignored.  Attend consultation sessions and push the issues.

My own personal view is that BaT really now depends on the state election due in 2015.  LNP successful, BaT and its flaws will probably proceed.  LNP not successful, I think there will be a reversion to CRR and sorting out the bus network.

Asset sales will be linked to the BaT.  No asset sales, no BaT ... so be it ...

[paulg]

The one thing which can't be dealt with later in a relatively straightforward fashion is (the lack of) Park Rd. It will be bloody obvious from Day 1 how much of a fail that is.

Anyway, we've seen what AM peak will look like, but not daytime offpeak. Hence I'll take the opportunity to present Frankenmap #2!

Nice work. That diagram makes it painfully clear how crazy it is not to have a Park Road interchange. In my discussions with project staff at the consultations it did become clear that it is a cost saving measure rather than a practical/engineering problem. Such a short-sighted approach.

Having said that, I do think BaT is better than nothing and it does allow expansions to the south and north to achieve CRR-like benefits. The only irretrievable loss (relative to the original CRR proposal) will be the Park Rd interchange.

Alex - in your diagram it would be nice to have a more direct busway line between Wooloongabba and Boggo Road, making it clear that UQ buses travel direct to the city. This is the one clear benefit of the BaT (relative to CRR) that I think will be a great improvement to the network - much improved UQ access.

Cheers, Paul

[Derwan]

I attended the information session at Woolloongabba yesterday afternoon.  The staff were keen to answer questions and record any concerns that people had.  They gave very frank answers to questions, which was appreciated.  (I much prefer this over the "regurgitating authorised publications" method.)

Nothing really new.  Confirmed that southern tunnel stubs will be built for rail but not the northern stubs to connect to Trouts Rd corridor.  My personal opinion is that the current government is not interested in Labor's vision of including rail in the solution for the Trouts Rd corridor - so isn't willing to spend the $100 million to ensure that it can be done.  NOT building the stubs effectively rules it out - as you can't tunnel beside an operating rail line.

However from what they were saying, it's possible that the future could have different options - such as the line from the Trouts Rd corridor connecting to separate platforms under Roma St and continuing to a western tunnel instead of the BaT tunnel.  So there is still hope!

As for the northern end for rail, from what they were saying it will eventually become a proper connection with the existing line (ala CRR) so that revenue services can run north/south through the BaT Tunnel.  But constrictions from Bowen Hills to Northgate will limit the effectiveness of this.

I think what we're effectively getting is CRR stage 0.5 with added bus.  Connections to the north and the extended tunnel to the south will eventually turn it into something that resembles CRR - minus the stations at Park Road and Dutton Park.

[paulg]

I think what we're effectively getting is CRR stage 0.5 with added bus.  Connections to the north and the extended tunnel to the south will eventually turn it into something that resembles CRR - minus the stations at Park Road and Dutton Park.

Yes, indeed.

[paulg]

The remaining posters from the consultation sessions (including the station layouts) are now also available on the BaT website:
http://qld.gov.au/transport/projects/bat/news/index.html

[ozbob]

... I think what we're effectively getting is CRR stage 0.5 with added bus.  Connections to the north and the extended tunnel to the south will eventually turn it into something that resembles CRR - minus the stations at Park Road and Dutton Park.

Yes, that is about it Derwan.  Don't forget nothing really for Exhibition either although that remains operational.

Funding will be the real issue from here.  Tones might have a shift in focus,  which might help.

A community consultation group is being set up for the next year or so, focussing on those directly impacted along the corridor.

I expect bi-artic buses will be in the BaT as well.

[achiruel]

LNP not successful, I think there will be a reversion to CRR and sorting out the bus network.

CRR unlikely to happen with Abbott at the helm federally with his anti-urban-rail philosophy.  Remember CRR was to depend largely on IA funding.

[red dragin]

Bring the old dock platform at Ekka back into use, ramp up to Bowen Bridge Rd. Easy connection to RBH from the south side, cost recovery as part of turnaround procedure, trains still avoid conflicting Ekka loop traffic.

Nah, makes too much sense for this state 

[Jonno]

I think what we're effectively getting is CRR stage 0.5 with added bus.  Connections to the north and the extended tunnel to the south will eventually turn it into something that resembles CRR - minus the stations at Park Road and Dutton Park.

Yes, indeed.

We are robbing rail to pay for failing to fix bus network. Loose loose situation!!!

[minbrisbane]

I'd put it this way.  BaT is a solution to problem that ought not to exist.

Sent from my SM-N9007 using Tapatalk

[Jonno]

I'd put it this way.  BaT is a solution to problem that ought not to exist.

Sent from my SM-N9007 using Tapatalk

+1

[ozbob]

Depending on how Cyclone Ita behaves, BaT might be  'deferred ' for a while ....

[ozbob]

I think what we're effectively getting is CRR stage 0.5 with added bus.  Connections to the north and the extended tunnel to the south will eventually turn it into something that resembles CRR - minus the stations at Park Road and Dutton Park.

Yes, indeed.

We are robbing rail to pay for failing to fix bus network. Loose loose situation!!!

Not fixing the bus network, but enabling more bad bus network practices ...   QUEENSLANDER!!

[SteelPan]

Depending on how Cyclone Ita behaves, BaT might be  'deferred ' for a while ....

A largish wave washing ashore, anywhere on the Qld coast, is about all it would take pollies and govt bean counters to defer the [no acronyms allowed] BaT Tunnel project - mind you, those critical to everyone 2018 Commonwealth Games - the ones we've all been crying out for years  - they're absolutely going ahead, you really need to see mostly 2nd rate athletes in performance as often as possible!

Remember though, the BaT and other major r_il projects are now given "sexy" cover names: BaT now means - Brisbane A[FL] Training facility, ohhh yes and all the world NEEDS that, yes it costs billions, but it's SPORT people, men in tight shorts kicking an inflated chunk of cow hide around - you NEED that, unlike the essential infrastructure stuff, that countless numbers of people use every day, to go about productive activities...like REAL commerce and industry - that's the optional stuff the BIG wave can put off for years...but a Brisbane A[FL] Training facility - Make it Happen!

[ozbob]

Media release 14th April 2014

SEQ: BaT - it is just not cricket!



RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has cautiously reviewed the BaT design only to conclude the project is attempting fix a bus congestion problem that ought not exist.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The BaT Project seeks to fix the chronic bus congestion caused by BCC's refusal to adopt leading practice network design such as those operating in Aukland, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland - to name just a few 'world' cities. The design concessions such as no Park Road Station, no connection to the northern or airport lines and no feeder network capacity enhancement mean the BaT is more about the buses than rail."

"As we have said all along, the current bus network is unsustainable. It is operationally unsustainable because adding more and more buses to the system is causing huge congestion and delays in the city centre. It is financially unsustainable because we cannot keep paying ever increasing fares, amongst the world's highest, and also some of the world's highest taxpayer subsidies for services that leave some Brisbane Suburbs such as Bulimba, Centenary and the Northwest in the dark."

"The current bus system is anti-patronage and doesn't serve the needs of the city. A simpler, frequent and more reliable bus network as proposed in the Translink Network Review in 2013 would significantly reduce the current bus congestion problems, increase patronage, minimise waste and allow the BaT investments to maximise the benefits for the entire public transport network."

"We can sit back and let the same investment fix a problem that ought not exist and provide the network with a sub-optimal outcome or instead adopt leading practice bus network design and maximise the rail and overall network benefits."

References:

1. SEQ: BCC Bus Cost Explosion Engulfs Community -   http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10458.0

2. SEQ: Bus review shambles confirmed by RTI - http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10146.0

3. SEQ: BCC Bus Review Fail a Raw Deal for Brisbane and SEQ http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10285.0

4. Bus and rail tunnel all show and no substance: transport expert
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/bus-and-rail-tunnel-all-show-and-no-substance-transport-expert-20131118-2xrab.html

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Online consultation today, Monday:

--> http://www.rumbletalk.com/client/chat.php?LtpbY1e3

The BaT (Bus and Train) project's online chat session will be taking place here from 12-2pm on Monday 14 April 2014.Please check back on this page from 11.45am on Monday.

[ozbob]

Online consultation today, Monday:

--> http://www.rumbletalk.com/client/chat.php?LtpbY1e3

The BaT (Bus and Train) project's online chat session will be taking place here from 12-2pm on Monday 14 April 2014.Please check back on this page from 11.45am on Monday.

^ on now.  Confirmed that both rail tracks bi-directional.  That is good.

The chat platform is neat too.

[ozbob]

^ bi-artics are under consideration ...   

[pandmaster]

I had a look at this study. I think they have done a better job than the recent Federal Government HSR study. What stands out to me is the $5 billion (PDF page 104; printed page 84) cost of Gold Coast to Brisbane HSR, using GCL to Ormeau then a new alignment to Roma Street. This is the same price as BaT and will surely have a larger benefit for the same price. As the first stage, trains could stop all stations Varsity Lakes to Ormeau before running to Roma Street until the line is extended or feeder trains could be provided VL - Beenleigh with connections at Nerang and Ormeau. The timetable has times of 23/24 minutes Nerang to Roma Street, so GCL trains along the existing corridor could be drastically reduced if not truncated at Beenleigh. This would allow for Federal funding (as not "urban rail") and would boost the Gold Coast economy tremendously by facilitating commuting to Brisbane and take countless cars off the Pacific Motorway.

HSR will take off in Australia once the people experience it.
http://bze.org.au/HSR_web_01_medium.pdf

[minbrisbane]

^ bi-artics are under consideration ...   

Fantastic.  I'll be even happier if they're green and not blue and yellow.

Sent from my SM-N9007 using Tapatalk

[ozbob]

http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2014/5/8/community-gets-involved-with-bat-tunnel

Minister for Transport and Main Roads
The Honourable Scott Emerson
Thursday, May 08, 2014

Community gets involved with BaT tunnel

More than 3,000 Queenslanders have given their feedback to help shape the design of the once-in-a generation Bus and Train (BaT) Tunnel project.

Transport and Main Roads Minister Scott Emerson said it was pleasing to see so many people having their say on the draft design of the project that will revolutionise public transport and create more than 18,000 full-time jobs in Brisbane.

"We wanted as many people as possible to provide their feedback, so it was great to have more than 3,000 people provide their thoughts during March and April," Mr Emerson said.

"This government promised to deliver better planning and better infrastructure and this project is a perfect example of this.

"As well as written and online submissions, seven community information sessions were held with more than 300 people in attendance.

"An online 'BaT' chat session garnered more than one hundred interactions and the BaT project website had almost 10,000 unique visits during the consultation period.

"Many residents also visited information displays at various Brisbane City Council libraries and the State Library."

Mr Emerson said the draft reference design was an important step in the planning process for the vital infrastructure project.

"The comments and feedback from residents, stakeholders and industry will help to shape the project's final reference design," he said.

"Now, we will analyse the feedback received and consider any community impacts and issues raised and following this some refinements may be made to the design.

The final reference design and environmental impact statement are expected to be available for public comment later this year.

The BaT project is a world-first design, which will create combining a railway and busway in a single, double-decked, 15-metre-wide tunnel beneath the Brisbane River and central business district.

The project is due to be completed in 2020 and operational in 2021.

For more information visit www.qld.gov.au/batproject

[ozbob]

Twitter

Emma Chalmers ‏@EmmaJChalmers

In today's @mXBrisbane @AlboMP tells commuters they are getting a "second rate'' solution with the BaT tunnel.

[petey3801]

Was having a think about this (can't even remember if it has been discussed earlier in this thread or not), but simply having the BaT trains terminate at Roma Street will do absolutely nothing to help the growing congestion through the City from the Northside. Without through routing through the BaT tunnel (and associated works at Mayne, ala CRR), we're basically already at the limit of the amount of trains that can be run in the AM peak from Ferny Grove, Airport, Doomben and Shorncliffe, not to mention Caboolture/Petrie/Kippa Ring. This project is really becoming more of a waste of time and money as time goes on IMO. Needs to be done properly first time and be done with it!

[dancingmongoose]

Twitter

Emma Chalmers ‏@EmmaJChalmers

In today's @mXBrisbane @AlboMP tells commuters they are getting a "second rate'' solution with the BaT tunnel.

Tahdah!
[IMGT]http://i.imgur.com/KKVZ2Gj.jpg[/IMGT]
They both make good points, it certainly is inferior (for a start there are three less stations in Ekka, Dutton Park and Boggo Road with no trains running through), and as others have correctly mentioned it is a solution to a bus problem that shouldn't exist, however if the labour government had actually bothered to get it funded instead of screwing around it would probably be built by now and we would be having a very different conversation.

[ozbob]

ALP and LNP are as much to blame as each other.  Shambles, BaT has had no real scrutiny in the same way that CRR had - rigorous by IA.  Yes BaT is flawed in some sense, but IF it ever does get built, a rational government will quickly move to turn the T into CRR effectively anyway (minus Park Road / Boggo connection)  ...

I can't wait to watch the masses transferring into bi-artics ... Ha! 

"But you promised I wouldn't have to transfer!" said the phleb  "Wasn't a core promise phleb!" said the Emperor of Queensland ... 

Onwards!

[Stillwater]

How does the BaT sync with the HSR terminus.  Following words from the feasibility study report.

"The Brisbane HSR station would be the northern terminal of the preferred HSR system. It would offer inter-capital express services to Sydney and inter-capital regional services to locations between Brisbane and Sydney. It is forecast that 16.7 million HSR passengers would pass through Brisbane in 2065.

"Peak hour passenger demand is forecast to be 4,600 passengers per hour. In the busiest hour, there would be ten arrivals or departures of HSR services, requiring four platforms of 315 metres in length to accommodate the longer 300 metre inter-capital express services forecast to be required in 2065.

"Trains 200 metres in length would be sufficient for inter-capital regional services. An HSR station at Brisbane is proposed for the site currently occupied by the Brisbane Transit Centre. The station site is to the south of the existing Roma Street station, as shown in Figure 5-6, between the heritage station building and Roma Street, and is located approximately half a kilometre from the Brisbane CBD.

"The site is currently occupied, and acquisition and demolition of the existing buildings would be required. The station would be below ground, to fit with the track alignment approaching from the west, with a rail level approximately ten metres below Roma Street. Because the footprint is alongside the existing operational station, none of the existing platforms would be required for HSR and therefore construction interfaces with existing and future operations would be minimised.

"Redevelopment of the site above the station is anticipated."

[ozbob]

I think at the best now, BaT delivery will be pushed back, and possibly will never be built.

Asked the question ..

===============

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow 5m

Is the BaT about to be shunted into a siding? #qldpol #auspol ... #showmethemoney #batmad // @scottemersonmp @BATProjectBris

[ozbob]

For information ...

[SurfRail]

Can I assume that we do not endorse this?

[ozbob]

Yes, we don't.  No reason to not share the information.  Other people are entitled their views.

I have explained our position and the reasons for this to the organisers.

My own view is that the BaT project will be at best delayed and possibly might not be built as envisaged anyway.  With the budgets cuts effecting all states, I doubt if this project can be funded.

Political instability at the federal level complicates.

[paulg]

The BaT team recently sent me an updated longitudinal section (which will apparently be made available on the website soon too):
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3o8iycpl0v32oi8/BaT%20project_Draft%20Reference%20Design%20longitudinal%20section.pdf

I am very hopeful that the State Government will still somehow find the money for this project.
This project is an awful lot better than no project.

Someone needs to convince Tony Abbott to change his mind on his government's refusal to commit any money to public transport projects. Funding more urban roads will get us nowhere. I think the electorate as a whole definitely supports more money for public transport, and all of the big projects are at risk as long as the federal government keeps holding out. Something has got to give.

Cheers, Paul

[dancingmongoose]

Yes, we don't.  No reason to not share the information.  Other people are entitled their views.

I have explained our position and the reasons for this to the organisers.

My own view is that the BaT project will be at best delayed and possibly might not be built as envisaged anyway.  With the budgets cuts effecting all states, I doubt if this project can be funded.

Political instability at the federal level complicates.

If there was a Park Road underground, would that be different? They are quite close, even closer than South Brisbane/South Bank. Wouldn't be hard to just catch the 104 and get off at Noble St.