BaT - Bus and Train project (was UBAT, was no CRR)

[OzGamer]

I didn't realize there was no train connection to the north in the initial plan. From page 38 of the briefing:

BaT will deliver rail connectivity between the Gold Coast / Beenleigh lines to the south and the Exhibition Line to the north. Initially, and in order to deliver a scheme that is affordable to Government, BaT will only allow revenue passenger services from the south. The rail connections to the north will only allow Gold Coast services to turn back, or access the stabling facilities at Mayne Yard. However, the project has been designed to allow for a full service connection to the North Coast Line in the future, allowing rail services from the northside into the tunnel.

Apart from halving the usefulness in terms of peak services, how will they deal with the AirTrain contract if trains can't go through to the Gold Coast?

[ozbob]

Air train services will run between Roma St and Airport by the looks of things.

[minbrisbane]

World's First(&Last/Only).

I still am dumbfounded that trains will not be through-routed. 

[ozbob]

^ without capacity enhancements simply not achievable in the present scope of BaT ..

[paulg]

I'm mainly interested in the capacity issues south of Park Road.
At the moment it looks like at least 3 GC services travel via the westernmost 3rd track in the outbound peak (stopping at Park Road platform 4). The BaT tunnel southbound track appears to only connect with the easternmost track. So in the outbound peak, all of the Kuraby, Beenleigh and GC trains will have to use that easternmost track. Kuraby all-stoppers can't use the westernmost track because there are no platforms on that track at many stations. How would they make this work?

Cheers, Paul

[ozbob]

I would expect both  tunnel tracks would be bi-di ...

[BrizCommuter]

Any indication on where trains terminating at Roma Street will turn back/reverse direction?
Turn back platforms, with crossover to south - would be a bit dumb due to side platforms?
Crossover & turn back to north - but trains would have to turn back on steep gradient?
Crossover & turn back facilities on surface near Victoria Park?

[Stillwater]

Original CRR had provision for connection to tunnel running to Alderley, then onto Trouts Road Corridor.  Together with SCL duplication and super-tilt trains, this was the basis of Anna Bligh's great promise of trains 'taking about an hour' to run between Nambour and Brisbane.   

So BaT seems to have no connection to tunnel or Trouts Road Corridor, but merely a loop around the Mayne yards.  We can assume there will be some gawd-aweful plan to eventually link it in to the existing northern rail corridor in 20-whenever.  Fast rail travel to the Sunny Coast not on the horizon.      :conf

[aldonius]

Any indication on where trains terminating at Roma Street will turn back/reverse direction?
Turn back platforms, with crossover to south - would be a bit dumb due to side platforms?
Crossover & turn back to north - but trains would have to turn back on steep gradient?
Crossover & turn back facilities on surface near Victoria Park?

I'm guessing surface.

[longboi]

Any indication on where trains terminating at Roma Street will turn back/reverse direction?
Turn back platforms, with crossover to south - would be a bit dumb due to side platforms?
Crossover & turn back to north - but trains would have to turn back on steep gradient?
Crossover & turn back facilities on surface near Victoria Park?

The last one.

[Jonno]

Guano guano guano!!!!

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Legacy Way and BaT tunnel to be linked, ending long commute from western suburbs

One of Brisbane's worst traffic crawls - the bus trip from the western suburbs through the city and out to the southside - is set to be shortened by more than 15 minutes.

Western suburbs buses that will soon come off congested Milton Road, will now also be removed from Brisbane's choked inner-city streets by 2020.

Premier Campbell Newman on Wednesday confirmed that planners would link Brisbane City Council's Legacy Way tunnel to the new Bus and Train (BaT) tunnel, giving buses a much faster run across the city.

'There are certainly issues now being looked at in the pre-feasibility study – and it is early days - but there is certainly a desire to take buses from BaT and put them into Legacy Way because that gives us even greater flexibility to provide better public transport services into the Brisbane CBD," he said.

Mr Newman said the design options to link the two tunnels were now being considered.

"So if a ramp, or a bridge, or some form of access point can be created, that will really make a huge difference in terms of bus services into the CBD from the western suburbs."

The BaT tunnel – between Dutton Park and the Inner City Bypass – includes buses and trains and will be finished by 2020.

Construction of Brisbane City Council's Legacy Way tunnel - running between Toowong and the Inner City Bypass - is ahead of schedule and will be finished by late 2014, or early 2015.

This map shows the current plan to connect the passages via a bus link near the Inner Northern Busway.

Meanwhile, Mr Newman said Federal Treasurer Joe Hockey's asset sale incentive announced last Friday would allow the state to apply for federal funding to help pay for the $5 billion BaT tunnel.

Under Mr Hockey's plan, state governments can receive an additional 15 per cent "top up" to money received from asset sales from the federal government.

Assets have to be sold "for productive infrastructure" by 2016.

The Newman government has earmarked ports at Townsville, Gladstone and Bundaberg, Sunwater and the electricity generating companies, Stanwell and CS Energy for sale or long term leases.

The federal government money would be paid out over five years.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/legacy-way-and-bat-tunnel-to-be-linked-ending-long-commute-from-western-suburbs-20140402-35yyu.html

[#Metro]

Guano guano guano!!!!

This is so funny.


I don't really mind if it does not continue beyond Mayne. Keeps it separate from the rest of the network and leaves open the opportunity for extension under Trouts Rd in the future. Plenty of lines that go north from Roma Street and a simple transfer to do that.

[#Metro]

I couldn't help myself Jonno!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guano


Guano (via Spanish, ultimately from the Quechua wanu) is the excrement of seabirds, cave-dwelling bats, pinnipeds, or (in English usage) birds more generally.[1] As a manure, guano is a highly effective fertilizer due to its exceptionally high content of nitrogen, phosphate, and potassium,

[Jonno]

Hehe he It still stinks though

[#Metro]

OMG!

Batman = Campbell Newman
Robin = Graham Quirk



It's photoshop time!!

https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/1/17/1389958032642/Adam-West-and-Burt-Ward-i-010.jpg

[Stillwater]

The LNP better have the politics surrounding the BaT finances in check.  Premier Newman now saying that the sale of ports at Townsville, Gladstone and Bundaberg will generate money to pay for the BaT.

Only a few weeks ago, the government said it wanted to get Queenslanders' opinions re a possible sale of state assets.  It seems the government had made its mind up all along.  THEN, we needed to sell the assets to pay down 'Labor's big bad debt.'

NOW it won't be allocated for that purpose, but will be spent on 'productive infrastructure' that generates jobs.

Labor will be able to drive a truck through this.  The spin will be:

The LNP was lying all along.  While there is debt that can be managed, there is no debt crisis and the government has demonstrated this by not using asset sales to pay down debt, but to spend on BAT etc.

Secondly, the LNP is only interested in shoring up its power base in SEQ.  It has 'sold out' the people of rural and regional Queensland by selling off their assets (at Townsville, at Gladstone, at Bundaberg, at Central Queensland) to build yet more things in Brisbane.

Labor could question where are the benefits to rural and regional Queensland from the asset sales plan and use one of those throw-away lines pollies spout -- along the lines of 'LNP has sold out the people of rural and regional Queensland to prop up its power base' and 'This is not a government for all of Queensland, just the bits where the government wants people to vote them back into power'  blah blah.

[ozbob]

Again, naming the world's first, once in a generation opportunity, and possibly the only combined bus and train tunnel as BaT, expressly after ' no acronyms ' edict, and then ignoring it, was always going to bite ...

Interesting to note a number of recent road projects have been named after Queensland local identities and so forth.

The LNP must really hate public transport ...

[ozbob]

Have yet to see any real independent reviews of the BaT project.

A few comments from Hale here but that is about all at this stage.  I have searched cannot find anything.  If you do please share ..

I would hope the academics and the like might set about reviewing this project ..

[paulg]

There is a new overall design map on the BaT website:
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Projects/U/UBAT/detailedrefdesign.pdf

(see also the Google Earth version here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5eikhvnd7qw3p9l/BaT%20Tunnel.kmz)

[ozbob]

The BaT is getting a significant work over on the Brisbanetimes blog ...

--> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/legacy-way-and-bat-tunnel-to-be-linked-ending-long-commute-from-western-suburbs-20140402-35yyu.html#comments

[SurfRail]

The team indicated a few things to me at today's session:

- Trouts Rd stubs would be around $100m to implement.  No budget for this currently and no plans concrete enough to do much with even if there was.
- Southern tunnel stubs WILL be provided, just not present on the reference design plans.
- The ticketing system will need to be amended to allow for entry through the surface barriers, to board a bus without needing to touch on and be able to touch off at a normal bus stop.
- Turnback location will be near the Energex facility just before Bowen Bridge Rd overpass, so it will be on flat ground after the tunnel portal.
- Beenleigh services will potentially run as far as Helensvale to provide 15min-ish frequency.
- Platform faces will be provided on the DG track from Salisbury to Fairfield, and the middle road will be the "tidal lane" (as per the Ringwood corridor in Melbourne).
- In-cab signalling in the tunnel - 80kph speed limit.
- BCC and QR identifying and throwing up various down-the-track infrastructure problems for identification now.

[paulg]

There is actually some evidence of stubs at Park Road in the reference design.


There are some other useful station design drawings on display at the consultation sessions:



The locations of the fare gates still needs to be refined e.g. at the moment the Roma Street design shows passengers going through two sets of gates to transfer to the BaT, but this could be changed to allow gate-free transfers.

Cheers, Paul

[#Metro]

Why are the bus platforms curved and wavy? Is this going to stuff up rail conversion were platforms are best straight?

[paulg]

Why are the bus platforms curved and wavy? Is this going to stuff up rail conversion were platforms are best straight?

They have used the same cavern width for both bus and train, but because the buses need a passing lane they can't fit full length platforms (this works out fine though because they only need a limited number of stopping bays). In the event that they changed to some sort of rubber-tyred metro they would reconfigure the whole thing I imagine and go to a more rail-like layout. Nothing preventing this, since the cavern size is the same for both levels.

[#Metro]

What are the Southern Tunnel stubs for?

[paulg]

What are the Southern Tunnel stubs for?

Eventual extension of the BaT tracks in a tunnel through to Yeerongpilly (or vicinity). Capacity is severely constrained by only having 3 tracks south of park road.

[longboi]

What are the Southern Tunnel stubs for?

Eventual extension of the BaT tracks in a tunnel through to Yeerongpilly (or vicinity). Capacity is severely constrained by only having 3 tracks south of park road.

Pretty much will be a given if Flagstone goes ahead and in any case a bump in frequency to the south.

[aldonius]

The team indicated a few things to me at today's session:

- The ticketing system will need to be amended to allow for entry through the surface barriers, to board a bus without needing to touch on and be able to touch off at a normal bus stop.
- Beenleigh services will potentially run as far as Helensvale to provide 15min-ish frequency.

1. So this means that we're going to be able to have gated busway stations in general?
2. That 15 min frequency - combined GC+BL both at 30 min, or BL at 15 min in and of itself?

[ozbob]

What are the Southern Tunnel stubs for?

Eventual extension of the BaT tracks in a tunnel through to Yeerongpilly (or vicinity). Capacity is severely constrained by only having 3 tracks south of park road.

One of the strengths of CRR southside was the through tunnel to Yeerongpilly.  Northside is even a bigger concern.

Southern tunnel stubs not indicated as they don't want to really let on that eventually a tunnel will be coming through to Yeerongpilly?

Politics can be very unpredictable.  We could end up with CRR + a bus tunnel section  ...

[Jonno]

We are getting an inferior rail solution to help fix a bus problem created by a refusal to change worst practice bus route design.  This is a complete waste of my hard earned and valuable taxes!!!!

[#Metro]

We are getting an inferior rail solution to help fix a bus problem created by a refusal to change worst practice bus route design.  This is a complete waste of my hard earned and valuable taxes!!!!

Guano Guano Guano!!!!  

For the record, I think it is a fairly good project, both bus and train corridors problems fixed up with a new alignment. The lack of Park Rd station does bother me a bit, but other than that it's not too bad at all.

I think so long as the bus section can be upgraded to rail (and some poison pill engineering isn't slipped in to prevent rail upgrade) then it should be OK. I'm all for network redesign (shocker, I fully expect the BCC bus network to be exactly the same as it is today just shoved through BaT) when going near the CBD. They had better expand the Victoria Park bus layover massively given all the rocket buses being fired etc.

[ozbob]

Long way to go yet, but the LNP could lose Government which should that happen my guess is BaT will get a fatal dose of Lyssavirus ..

And we will be back to a ...

[ozbob]

We are getting an inferior rail solution to help fix a bus problem created by a refusal to change worst practice bus route design.  This is a complete waste of my hard earned and valuable taxes!!!!

Fairies have told me that there is a growing cohort within BT that want to sort the BT bus network but the BCC itself (despots) won't be in it.

[#Metro]

Fairies have told me that there is a growing cohort within BT that want to sort the BT bus network but the BCC itself (despots) won't be in it.

What is not financially sustainable will not be sustained. It is not sustainable to cut $16 million pa each and every year and withdraw service. A growing city demands more service, not less. Raising rates, subsidies or fares are non options because these avenues have all been maxed out already.

A taxi style network = taxi style fares. There's no escape from this conclusion.

Failure to change will leave them wide open to being undercut during a bus contracting, simply by the new operator redesigning the bus network along TransLink's design in the 2013 bus review.

[ozbob]

A problem with the broader BaT mentality is that it is reducing pressure on BCC for proper reform.  As we have seen the present state political leadership is either unable or unwilling to take BCC on, rather, preferring to sacrifice the community.

I also have serious doubts as to whether any real concerns raised in the so called consultation processes will actually result in any changes from the BaT plan as it is now.  Minor tinkering but the plot is set in concrete ...

[paulg]

They have added a PDF of the consultation posters to the BaT project website:
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Projects/U/UBAT/batconsulationposters.pdf
(station designs not included though)

[Derwan]

They have added a PDF of the consultation posters to the BaT project website:

Thanks Paulg.

I'll be dropping in to the information session in Woolloongabba tomorrow. 

[Fares_Fair]

Pity the North Coast Line isn't duplicated, they could rail the spoil - a point mentioned in the document for consideration - (around 3 million tonnes of it) up the NCL and use it for drainage / flood protection works around Gympie (or anywhere else along the NCL for that matter).

[Jonno]

Have pointed out to a number of people this week that BaT will not connect to northern lines. Received a "That's stupid We're bring sold a dud" each and every time. We are getting far less value for the investment than CRR provided.