BaT - Bus and Train project (was UBAT, was no CRR)

[ozbob]

I am not depressed, I just accept reality and look at good utube songs     Ballarat is looking good, even in winter!

Best thing that can happen here is to fix what we have first. Lots of latent capacity, just a scarcity of political ' balls ' ...

If BaT ever does fly ( and pigs do ) then rubber tyred metro / electric bi artics will probably need to do the heavy lifting in BaT, that means of course, bus people will have to transfer!  OMG!!

[Stillwater]

Oh, I plan to have a good time before I pass on, Ozbob.  Heading to Ballarat later this year.  Love the Melb.-B'rat train trip!  We can but dream.

[ozbob]

I am heading to Melbourne late April for a few days.  Have booked a V/liner seat to Bendigo for a day outing.  Will be able to check out the trams there too.

Myki now on the V/Line.  Still had to ring up though and book a seat (only on the long haul trains with reserved seats, have buffet cars too ..).

[techblitz]

i like this pic...reminds me of the notion that BT will seperate from BCC

[ozbob]

You never know hey?  lol

[James]

The buses were added to the rail tunnel concept after Tony Abbott got elected and said the feds would not fund urban rail.  Queensland had to find a way to stick the feds for part of the cost.  Feds fund roads, so just add roads that take buses.  Keep the price below the $5 billion mark and hope and pray that a big Armourguard van drives from Canberra with $2 billion on board.

I think it is as crude as that.

The BaT is substantially different from the 'shovel ready' CRR, so a new business case is required, which most probably will expose the flaws.

In any event, the LNP just wants to go to the next election saying they have paid down Labor's big bad debt and with a sod-turning ceremony in mind - just the sod-turning ceremony.  The prize is not PT transport efficiency -- it is another 3 years in power across Queensland.  By then, Boy Scouts might be in trouble for wearing uniforms, patches and insignia.

I don't see that happening. I think Tony Abbott will not fund rail regardless of whether a bus tunnel is above it or not.

I personally do not want BaT funded. I do hope it flops. If it was just simply the rail project on its current alignment with a station at Park Road, I would support it. But the bus portion of it is just stupid. ESPECIALLY this whole faffing around at Park Road. This will mean it cannot be converted to metro without screwing with both the SE Busway AND the Eastern busway. It practically puts the nail in the coffin re: conversion to anything but busway-wide LRT (which might not work at all).

[ozbob]

Summer of 2013/14 has been fairly kind (drought not with standing).  Might not be the case 2014/15,   a couple of bad weather events and we can forget about BaT for a few more years even with asset sales. And so it goes.  2025?  What is the transit framework then?  Self driving cars? Electric buses?

I think the State Election, when ever it is held will really tell if and when BaT is built.

Maybe a true driverless metro system is the real go (automatic train operation).  Investing some money in getting what we have presently maximised and then looking at a proper metro system.

[#Metro]

I'm not sure what all the negativity is about. Both bus and rail corridors require expansion.
I've always said that the best location for a metro is not from West End to Bowen Hills, but simply down the SE busway alignment, because that's where the highest demonstrated demand is.

I daresay they should make the tunnel rail over rail. The bus over train does look a bit silly, but then again, do people think that when two or three train lines run over the top of each other that is silly? (I.e. Cleveland, Ferny Grove, GC trains on the combined section between Roma St-Park Road.) Even Melbourne has rail over rail in the City Loop where four tunnels are bundled with two on top stacked above two on the bottom.

Anyway. There is valid concern over (a) Lack of Park Road Station, (b) The Train Pattern Problem. The purpose of infrastructure is to facilitate services. Services are what do the actual people moving, not infrastructure. Therefore the train pattern really really needs to be thought about BEFORE the infrastructure is built. Few things worse than building something at multi-billion dollar cost and then realising 'whoops, the service pattern is defective'.

Options:

a) All GC and BN trains via BaT - maximum time savings for both GC and BN line passengers. Would require FG services to continue to and terminate at Park Road. When run with Cleveland trains, this puts 7.5 min frequency during the day between Park Rd-South Bank-CBD. This is quite a good option actually, pax to UQ would be able to get the train from Roma St in the CBD to Park Road and transfer at Park Road. The issue then becomes how to get UQ students on the BN and GC trains to UQ, I think the solution there is to redesign the 412 bus to travel via Roma Street Station.

(unfortunately this does mean a return to the pre 2006 pattern of students going past UQ on the Beenleigh line and then doing a great arc back to UQ via Coronation Drive). Route 29 would be boosted going from Wooloongabba to UQ via PA Hospital etc. That's probably the least worst solution. Pax for South Bank on these trains can get out at George Street and walk across the Goodwill Bridge.

b) GC trains via BaT and BN trains via South Bank. No time savings for BN trains, which will reduce the BCR / NPV financial benefits of the project significantly. BN is already too long with too many stations on it, it really really needs the time savings from BaT. On the other hand, interchange is retained at Park Road for the majority of UQ bound pax.

c) BN trains via BaT, GC trains via South Bank. No time savings for GC train users but this is not all bad as most of their journey is express anyway. Assuming the majority of UQ bound pax are on BN trains, this causes a problem with going to UQ and so the 29 boost and 412 redesign would be required in this case.

d) Some GC/BN trains via BaT and some via South Bank. Dog's breakfast and worst possible option as trains to identical locations will split into half frequency at the tunnel portal and 15 min daytime frequencies at train platforms will be halved by 50% to half hourly (i.e. South Bank, South Brisbane and passengers for these stations anywhere along the line will experience half hourly waits during the day). Catastrophe at Roma St as trains to identical locations arrive at different levels/stations at Roma Street, inducing passengers to run between stations or wait in the middle (Toronto had this problem with their experiment in interlining rail services on the TTC subway).

Classic infrastructure - service problem (can't post image but in the link)



Image from http://www.humantransit.org/2011/02/basics-branching-or-how-transit-is-like-a-river.html

"To sum up, we should suspicious whenever we see a branch drawn as though one line can effortlessly divide into two equal lines.  Often, such a branch will be called an extension, a very slightly misleading word because it suggests that an existing, known quantity of service is being extended.  In fact, a branch always means one of three things.  Either:

* Points beyond the branching point have less frequent service or
* One of the branches operates as a shuttle, requiring a connection, or
* in a few rare cases, the train itself comes apart, with some cars proceeding along one branch and some along the other.

Geometrically, it has to mean one of those things, and it may not be the one you prefer.  So before you decide whether the service is useful to you, or whether you support a proposed transit project whose map looks like this, you may want to ask which of those it is."

[ozbob]

^ Reading the BaT documentation as provided on http://www.qld.gov.au/transport/projects/bat/  does indicate that all Beenleigh/GC will be via BaT.

How will the project change rail travel?

When the BaT project is operational in 2021, rail capacity across the Brisbane River will double from 24 trains to 48 trains an hour.

Trains travelling on the Gold Coast and Beenleigh rail lines will travel through the new tunnel to Roma Street through the new stations at Woolloongabba and George Street.

George Street Station will be ideally placed at the front door of Queen's Wharf Brisbane.

The Merivale Street Rail Bridge will continue to be used by trains travelling into the Brisbane CBD from the Cleveland line and Kuraby on the Beenleigh line, servicing key destinations on the way to Roma Street.

http://www.qld.gov.au/transport/projects/bat/about/need/index.html

[ozbob]

Someone say BaT?  ..   

[#Metro]

Trains travelling on the Gold Coast and Beenleigh rail lines will travel through the new tunnel to Roma Street through the new stations at Woolloongabba and George Street.

George Street Station will be ideally placed at the front door of Queen's Wharf Brisbane.

The Merivale Street Rail Bridge will continue to be used by trains travelling into the Brisbane CBD from the Cleveland line and Kuraby on the Beenleigh line, servicing key destinations on the way to Roma Street.

But it doesn't say how these Kuraby trains are actually formed. Are they proposing to split existing Beenleigh line trains (2x BN + 2x Coopers Plains = 4 trains/hour off-peak) into two strands - one strand via BaT and the one strand via South Bank? That's my interpretation of the above statement. Or are they proposing to add more services so that there are eight trains per hour stopping at Kuraby (4x BN trains + 4 South Bank trains)? (seems unlikely).

I think a number of stations may experience an effective frequency dilution with this project.

Consider a person standing on the train platform at Coopers Plains wanting to go to say, Park Road or South Bank. They will wait for 15 minutes, a City via BaT train will go past and this person cannot catch that service so they will have to wait a total of half an hour for 'their' train. Currently such a person only waits 15 minutes because all trains go via South Bank.

Branching divides frequency.

Will this also mean passengers waiting inside the $5BN BaT tunnel to go to Beenleigh line stations in the off-peak will have to wait half an hour to do so - this is actually an effective 50% cut in service frequency.

Additionally, a person standing at Roma Street wanting to go to Coopers Plains would face the possibility that the train they want could arrive at the upper level station or underground at the new Roma Street BaT station. Makes you wonder what it is going to be like during peak hour - will pax have to run between different stations just to get the first train to Kuraby?

I think some clarification from the BaT team of the actual train patterns and numbers of trains per hour in the off peak is needed.

How many Trains/Hour depart from George Street BaT will stop at Coopers Plains in the off-peak?
How many Trains/Hour depart from South Bank will stop at Coopers Plains in the off-peak?

[ozbob]

Getting details of network planning is why people should attend the consultations.  At least ask ..

But am I going batty? 

To me it is straightforward.  All GC and Beenleigh services through BaT.  Kuraby (= Coopers Plains) on surface.  Even if no frequency changes there will be 15 minutes or better both in BaT and on surface Fairfield to Roma St via South Brisbane.

[ozbob]

The Terms and Conditions of the BaT naming competition said no acronyms.  We are now seeing why that was a good rule  ..

BaT jokes are go!

[Old Northern Road]

It mentions that Gold Coast trains will only be 3 minutes faster than currently. Weren't they originally claiming that they will be 15 minutes faster?

[ozbob]

It mentions that Gold Coast trains will only be 3 minutes faster than currently. Weren't they originally claiming that they will be 15 minutes faster?

They suggest that there will be a 14 minute saving on Beenleigh services ... [ http://www.qld.gov.au/transport/projects/bat/about/benefits/index.html ]

[minbrisbane]

I wonder how. 

Sounds like a two tiered service may be in the mix?  All to Kuraby, Express through the BUM?

[paulg]

It looks like they are proposing this sort of arrangement for the Kuraby/Beenleigh/Gold Coast lines (but without the interchange at Park Road):

The question is, can we get 15 minute frequency for all stations Fairfield-Kuraby PLUS 15 minute (or better) frequency for Beenleigh/GC trains with only 3 tracks available?? The original CRR had 4 tracks for passenger trains Park Road - Rocklea PLUS a dedicated freight track. With BaT, we have all passenger trains plus freight on the 3 existing tracks through that section.

[ozbob]

New stabling on the SCL has been identified as being for NGR rolling stock.

[James]

It looks like they are proposing this sort of arrangement for the Kuraby/Beenleigh/Gold Coast lines (but without the interchange at Park Road):

The question is, can we get 15 minute frequency for all stations Fairfield-Kuraby PLUS 15 minute (or better) frequency for Beenleigh/GC trains with only 3 tracks available?? The original CRR had 4 tracks for passenger trains Park Road - Rocklea PLUS a dedicated freight track. With BaT, we have all passenger trains plus freight on the 3 existing tracks through that section.

I think there was actually something done (on here in fact) which indicated that as long as you built 4 platforms at Kuraby (or a way for trains to vacate one of the tracks - crossover hell maybe?), you could have 4tph Kuraby + 4tph Beenleigh + 4tph GC, because the all-stopper vacates the track before the express comes through (i.e. Kuraby terminator is off track when BL train comes through, and BL train is off track when GC train comes through).

You could always have 2tph terminating at Fruitgrove with the other 2tph proceeding to Kuraby out of service, but that would be mediocrity to say the least!

On the note of people waiting - the easy way to do this is timetable well. What I'd recommend is:
ALL to Kuraby via South Bank - 4tph
EXP Park Road to Kuraby, stopping only at Yeerongpilly and Altandi, ALL to Beenleigh (via BUM) - 4tph (ideally, 2tph would work)
EXP Park Road to Beenleigh, stopping only at Yeerongpilly, Altandi and Loganlea, ALL to Varsity Lakes (via BUM). - 2tph

Stop at Yeerongpilly could debatably be pulled back to Fairfield. Note that I still include Park Road station there, as I think it should still be built. If it isn't built, EXP Wooloongabba to Yeerongpilly. I don't think a stop at Fairfield is needed, given it would come at the expense of a Yeerongpilly stop (which has far better cross-town utility than Fairfield).

Lapdog, I expect that by 2021 (or whenever they finish the damn thing), we will finally have 4tph right along the Beenleigh line because the 'lack of trains' problem will be resolved. I think that is one thing preventing the further extension of 15 minute frequency in many places during the interpeak.

[SurfRail]

I suspect the Beenleigh time-saving is simply by running them express north of Kuraby.

The claimed time-saving for CRR was around 10 minutes, which is consistent with the tunnel starting further south, so 3 minutes sounds right.  By then of course the timetable will have inflated even more rendering it worse than current travel times.

[Old Northern Road]

I suspect the Beenleigh time-saving is simply by running them express north of Kuraby.

The claimed time-saving for CRR was around 10 minutes, which is consistent with the tunnel starting further south, so 3 minutes sounds right.  By then of course the timetable will have inflated even more rendering it worse than current travel times.

I don't think that would make much difference. Gold Coast trains currently take 12mins to get from Park Rd to Central while a tunnel from Park Rd to George St shouldn't be anymore than 5mins.

[paulg]

Hi all,
I attended the public consultation session today.
There was some useful additional information available on the network planning aspects of the project.
The big bombshell for me was the realisation that they are proposing that all BaT trains will go to Mayne Yards and turn around i.e. no connection to any of the northern lines.

The following diagram was on display:



This might not be the last word on what is proposed (e.g. they are thinking about an extra stop for GC/Beenleigh trains at Fairfield before entering the tunnel, and the diagram seems to indicate Beenleigh trains going via the surface whereas they will likely be express from Kuraby).

Very interesting! I'd like to know what happens to Airport services in this scenario. I assume they would terminate at Roma Street? Those wanting to go to the GC would then transfer to a BaT train.

Cheers, Paul

[ozbob]

... The big bombshell for me was the realisation that they are proposing that all BaT trains will go to Mayne Yards and turn around i.e. no connection to any of the northern lines ..

Thanks for that observation.  In the absence of any works etc. north and south of the tunnel isolating the BaT trains that way is probably the only way it can fly. 

[dancingmongoose]

Went to the information session at the state library. Nothing really new for me but certainly confirmed suspicions.

• All Gold Coast and Beenleigh trains will run through BaT
• Beenleigh trains will run express Kuraby to either Gabba or Fairfield stopping only at Altandi, with separate all stations services going over the bridge through South Brisbane and terminating at Kuraby
• Only NGR trains will service the BaT
• 14 minute saving from Roma Street to Beenleigh (currently take 64 min, will take 50 with BaT, however it will running part express so that is not an entirely accurate gauge of how much time will be saved)

@paulg, I didn't get to see that chart, so are they not even servicing Exhibition? That makes 3 stations lost from CRR now (Dutton Pk, Park Rd, Ekka). Airport trains might go to Park Road, seems a bit silly to have two lines (Doomben as well) terminate at Roma Street, though it wouldn't surprise me either way.
If they're going to cut out Ekka and terminate at Roma Street, wouldn't it be better to change the direction of the northern portal so trains from the north can arrive at Roma Street (above ground) then loop onto the Ekka line and go straight into the tunnel? You'd be stopping at Roma Street twice but is that a big deal?

[paulg]

If they're going to cut out Ekka and terminate at Roma Street, wouldn't it be better to change the direction of the northern portal so trains from the north can arrive at Roma Street (above ground) then loop onto the Ekka line and go straight into the tunnel? You'd be stopping at Roma Street twice but is that a big deal?

Looks like they are trying to isolate the BaT trains from the rest of the system. Looping around from Roma Street would entail more conflicts.

Yes, looks like BaT trains will pass through Exhibition Station without stopping. I would love to see an upgraded Exhibition Station being used. I also think it would also would be great to have platforms at Bowen Hills. Like this:

A pedestrian link already exists to link the northern ends of the platforms.

Won't make it into this project scope (on cost grounds at a minimum) but worth wondering about for the future. One of the staff at the consultation did say that there would be an eventual plan for future projects to link the BaT with the northern lines (though I suppose this could be via the North West Transport Corridor).

Cheers, Paul

[Old Northern Road]

65mins to Kippa-Ring
41mins to Shorncliffe
27mins to Doomben

Is this a joke?

[Fares_Fair]

The proposed Woombye (Sunshine Coast, 1 stop before Nambour) stabling facility will be designed to house the NGR trains.

[paulg]

65mins to Kippa-Ring
41mins to Shorncliffe
27mins to Doomben

Is this a joke?

The Shorncliffe and Doomben times are the same as current timetables to Roma Street.
The Kippa Ring time is due to the rather indirect route plus lot of stops I suppose.

[aldonius]

35 to Ferny Grove, too.
The fat continues to grow.

So: no Ekka station and no real Northern connection means BaT trains effectively terminate at Roma St.

Parsing that map, here's everything I'm seeing/guessing for AM peak:

4/8 Ferny Grove trains continue all stations to Cleveland.  Other 4 + Doomben trains will run (perhaps out of service after Park Rd) to Manly & Cleveland.
Shorncliffe <=> Kuraby at a consistent 6tph both ways.

Airport to terminate at Roma St full time, express pattern reinstated.

Ipswich/Caboolture, Springfield/Kippa-Ring with one of each northern train terminating at Roma St. Likewise Nambour and Gympie North (not even shown). All limited express Northgate-Bowen Hills. Rosewood shuttle to Ipswich only, of course.

While BaT will only use NGR, by the time the full fleet is delivered it will be used elsewhere too, almost definitely Nambour and probably the rest of the Mains lines.

[dancingmongoose]

Looks like they are trying to isolate the BaT trains from the rest of the system. Looping around from Roma Street would entail more conflicts.

It makes some sense, if they are the only trains that can actually use the tunnel it would ensure that there should always be a train available.

I like that BH plan of yours, I was wondering if something like that was possible at Park Rd after seeing the initial plans that only showed the tunnel starting at the current boggo rd bus station but that's where its fully underground, it dives just after Dutton Pk so you'd effectively be walking to a separate station just to reach the next platform.

I wonder how the Roma St platforms will be counted, will they be 1-10 above ground and 1-4 under, or just 1-14?

After some deliberation, I think that Airport trains will eventually go onto Beaudesert. I stress, eventually. 


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[Gazza]

The way I'm reading the map is that all services north of Northgate will run express Northgate to Bowen hills stopping only at Eagle Junction, with Shorncliffe/Airport/Doomben trains fulfilling the all stops service for Nundah, Toombul, Albion, Wooloowin.

Back during the sector 2 QR CRG meeting/on here I put forward that as a suggestion, since there is sufficient all day frequency to Northgate that you can save a few mins for passengers coming from further afield.

[SurfRail]

If nothing else it makes it relatively easy to build Trouts Rd and stick in.  BaT trains go via Trouts Rd from GC and Beenleigh to Caboolture and Kippa-Ring, Ipswich and Springfield connect to Airport and Shorncliffe, FG and Doomben connect to Kuraby and Cleveland.  Nambour trains go via Trouts Rd and BaT but terminate at say Yeerongpilly (run express from the Gabba and reverse in a dedicated turnback).

Is it just me or are there 4 stations shown on the Springfield line? 

[red dragin]

How are people from the Northside meant to get to George St, we all know that Qld'ers are allergic to transfers...

[dancingmongoose]

Is it just me or are there 4 stations shown on the Springfield line? 

You'll notice that the line system is the same as the CRR map I posted up, just edited a little to reflect what has changed, and that's nothing on the Springfield line. The CRR map is from a pdf dated August 2011. The line was only open to Richlands then, and they would have just put the full plan in, same as Kippa-Ring. So I wouldn't take it as an indication that we will have Ellen Grove by the time BaT comes around. Although realistically speaking, there's no reason why it shouldn't.

[Old Northern Road]

To me the most disturbing part is the insane amount of buses they are proposing to run. 39 buses to Indooroopilly, 45 buses to Carindale, 206 buses to Griffith University . Is it even possible to run that many buses per hour? And I guess most areas outside of BCC (i.e. the areas which are expected to have the highest population growth) will still only have 1 bus per hour during peak.

[Old Northern Road]

If nothing else it makes it relatively easy to build Trouts Rd and stick in.  BaT trains go via Trouts Rd from GC and Beenleigh to Caboolture and Kippa-Ring, Ipswich and Springfield connect to Airport and Shorncliffe, FG and Doomben connect to Kuraby and Cleveland.  Nambour trains go via Trouts Rd and BaT but terminate at say Yeerongpilly (run express from the Gabba and reverse in a dedicated turnback).

Problem is that Trouts Rd is unlikely to be built for decades.

Is it just me or are there 4 stations shown on the Springfield line? 

They have 7 stations along the Kippa-Ring line as well. I'd just assume that the people who created that map are incompetent.

[Old Northern Road]

65mins to Kippa-Ring
41mins to Shorncliffe
27mins to Doomben

Is this a joke?

The Shorncliffe and Doomben times are the same as current timetables to Roma Street.
The Kippa Ring time is due to the rather indirect route plus lot of stops I suppose.

I wasn't aware that they were measuring to Roma St instead of Central. I assume that they forgot to take into account that trains will be 4mins faster if they run express from Northgate. So it should be 52mins to Caboolture and 57mins to Kippa-Ring. That is still too slow for Kippa-Ring which should be at least 3mins faster. I remember the good old days (only around 5 years ago) when there was an express train that only took 28mins to travel from Central to Petrie.

[James]

I'm sorry, but seeing none of the BUM trains continuing through to the northside makes me want to throw bricks at Parliament house. Stupid stupid stupid!

Also: the bus madness needs to stop. 20bph through Kenmore? 14bph through Mt Ommaney? 23bph through Annerley? Look at that figure for Buranda! That is almost one bus every 12 seconds! Not even the Cultural Centre handles that many buses. Are the politicians crazy?

I think the Mains Rd corridor/Griffith Uni takes the cake though. BUM will not solve any busway problems because the choke point will only move further down the busway. The only true solution is a railway line directly down Mains Road, to absorb these 60-90 (if you feederise the 150 too) buses per hour going down the busway and to free up capacity for genuine busway use (e.g. Logan P-rockets, which we can't do much about, bus-only routes which can't be feederised like the 200, Chatsworth Rd BUZ, Ipswich Road BUZ etc.).

[dancingmongoose]

How I believe the network map will look:

I don't think Ipswich and Caboolture trains will be running express outside peak, and I doubt that will happen unless we get 15 minute frequency all day.

[ozbob]

I would not be surprised if once the BaT is actually commenced, Airtrain make moves to get purpose built air-EMUs, that is units designed for airport travel to and from.  Much more luggage facilities in carriages for pax and even the possibility of a baggage car of sorts for direct check-in say at Roma St.

Correct James, the number of buses projected is not achievable practically and will cost a motza. It is also predicated in part on the present failed network model, I have little doubt that will change as well.  I can see busways going over progressively to a trunk and feeder model with electric bi-artics on the busways in the main.  This will hurt the ' one seaters '  ...   

Other than that ..