BaT - Bus and Train project (was UBAT, was no CRR)

[#Metro]

Conversion from bus to LR will never happen.When the time comes they will prob ably be building a whole new metro system Or line and tunnel through to city to Convert you have two issues.

1) where do buses go during Construction ? Remember M1 traffic will be worse then .

2) Where do the remaining buses go after? Probably 25% Minimum of today

It will cause so much disruption  during 2 to 3 yr construction period no pollie will touch it

Also why LR? I am thinking HR either using current QR trains or green field in a tunnel through suburbs east of busway would be more benefical.

The M1 has recently had transit lanes removed, these can be brought back. M1 traffic will always be bad, if a lane is taken away the traffic in that lane will disappear (de-induction). Go look at the M1 today, after transit lanes were removed, all lanes are now clogged, adding a lane has had no effect and therefore taking one away should have no effect also.

The current system is already causing disruption - high fares and no services to key parts of the city, for example. There is a precedent in Ottawa Transitway - on which the Brisbane Busway was modelled on - which is now converting it's busway to light rail. So the precedent for conversion exists.

I am not advocating Light Rail, I want to see an automatic metro the same as Vancouver Skytrain as this will reduce out labour costs (no staff onboard).

) BCC should be ordered to sell the buses to private operators which will use them where they are needed (i.e. the outer suburbs)

The reality is that the BCC BUSES ARE ALREADY SOLD to the Queensland Treasury and thus are state-owned already. BCC LEASES them back off the Treasury. Howzat!! 

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Transit tunnel planning to cost $30m

[ozbob]

Underground Bus and Train project

The Underground Bus and Train project is a critical new link in South East Queensland's public transport network. It's also a new concept in public transport.

You are invited to have your say on the Underground Bus and Train project and public transport in South East Queensland in general.

--> https://www.getinvolved.qld.gov.au/gi/consultation/1755/view.html

[STB]

Underground Bus and Train project

The Underground Bus and Train project is a critical new link in South East Queensland's public transport network. It's also a new concept in public transport.

You are invited to have your say on the Underground Bus and Train project and public transport in South East Queensland in general.

--> https://www.getinvolved.qld.gov.au/gi/consultation/1755/view.html

Cheers for that, I've just put my two cents in.

With the UBAT project in its current flawed form, I know with myself, I'll be fighting like hell to make sure at the very least they implement a Park Road station and making sure the local community in the Redlands is aware of this and just how important it is.

[ozbob]

The above online survey closes 24 Jan 2014 ...

[ezekial]

I was looking through the 'Benefits of UBAT' part of TMR's website and I wonder how this claim would have been calculated:

"80 per cent more Gold Coast trains on opening of the Underground Bus and Train project."

Would it be comparing the number of GC trains at peak or midday?  And would they be comparing the Jan 20th timetables to what they think they could deliver with UBAT and next generation rolling stock? 

[#Metro]

How is this possible? Aren't there infrastructure constraints (i.e. single track sections, passing issues) on the Gold Coast line?

[Fares_Fair]

There is a 6 minute section of single line track between Coomera and Helensvale as I understand it.


My response to the final question...

YES!
Duplicate the Sunshine Coast line from Beerburrum to Nambour so that the Sunshine Coast population can enjoy the benefits of public transport services and frequency that everywhere else receives.
Our predominant single line track is a major infrastructure bottleneck, and admitted so by Government.
The UBAT will do nothing to improve Sunshine Coast to Brisbane or vice versa services.


Of course it is imperative/necessary to address the 2016 Merivale bridge maximum capacity issue and I fully support its' [UBAT's] objectives.
The Sunshine Coast reached that point many years ago, when buses were introduced to supplement the trains ...

[SurfRail]

I was looking through the 'Benefits of UBAT' part of TMR's website and I wonder how this claim would have been calculated:

"80 per cent more Gold Coast trains on opening of the Underground Bus and Train project."

Would it be comparing the number of GC trains at peak or midday?  And would they be comparing the Jan 20th timetables to what they think they could deliver with UBAT and next generation rolling stock?

It's absolute junk - not at all possible without probably double what is to be outlaid for this project.  The most important constraint on the Gold Coast and Beenleigh line is the Coomera section, and there is now some indication that rather than fix it properly they will do the half-arsed thing and only duplicate to the bridge approaches.   

[James]

It's absolute junk - not at all possible without probably double what is to be outlaid for this project.  The most important constraint on the Gold Coast and Beenleigh line is the Coomera section, and there is now some indication that rather than fix it properly they will do the half-arsed thing and only duplicate to the bridge approaches.   

I would argue that triplication Kuraby - Bethania is just as important for increase peak frequency of GC trains, either that or the modification of the Beenleigh Line peak terminus to not be at Beenleigh. Right now in order to give 7.5 minute frequency to GC commuters, far outer BL line commuters have to sacrifice a clockface timetable and some time - to me that is the first sign of inadequate track capacity along the Beenleigh line.

Duplication to the bridge would be worse than the current scenario, due to the requirement to slow for track points.

[SurfRail]

^ QR's own stated view is that the Coomera section is the biggest impediment to running more trains - moreso than missing track capacity north of Beenleigh given the relative cost.  I tend to trust that assessment.

QR is generally correct on rail infrastructure planning, it is the TMR numpties who step in and compromise it all.

[petey3801]

Agree the Dup needs to be extended closer to the bridge to imprpve reliability and enables trains to travsere the single track section wholely at line speed, not braking and accelerating from a stationn which saves alot of time and increases track capacity signiifcantly. Its realatively cheap and the last extension should have done this and shame they didn't.

Shane, just so you know, QRs version of high speed points is 80km/h, and as far as i'm aware, there are no plans to implement points of any faster speed than this.

Obviously you haven't actually been down there for a while. Trains DO traverse the whole single track section at line speed. The train slows for the crossovers before the stations only slightly before they would need to if it was duplicated, and in the case of Coomera, even if it was duplicated in to the station, we'd still slow at about the same point as now due to the neutral section before the station.

Approaching Helensvale from the north, I apply the brakes for the 80km/h points before the station, take off the brakes at 80km/h, which occurs just before the points and about 100m after the points, re-apply the brakes for the station stop.

If you had your way, most of the Helensvale to Coomera section would be run at 80km/h, simply because it would be pointless getting up much faster, just to slow to 80km/h for the points before the bridge and after the bridge, then it's only a kilometer or so to Coomera (heading north... same thing heading south, really!). I've said this before, but obviously you've simply chosen to ignore it, thinking you know more about the line than someone that actually drives trains on it.

If you're going to duplicate the line up to the Coomera River bridge, you might as well just do the lot. All or nothing. Duplicating to the approaches will do nothing but slow trains down.

[ozbob]

Interesting discussion ..  thank you ...

BUT ...

A couple of observations today with my Uncle.  My Uncle is a Civil Ginger Beer, worked around the world on rail and air ports mainly ..

We travelled ex Goodna to Springfield and back to Rosewood and back to Goodna. Because besides  the rail stuff also interesting the ginger beer stuff is fascinating.  We walked to Bradfield Bridge to see that and the great concept.

OK to the chase ..

QR track infrastructure is a lot better than down south.  Agree there. We noted the marking and the sleepers west of Ippy to be done ..

Uncle's opinion of Darra was less than complementary.  But  we know that, except some ex members ..

Darra is the shining light why bureaucrats should be kept away from railway design ..

[Gazza]

Very good agree, just need  to remember the Coomera Bridge is not a island for funding in the large limited funded cityrail network and in some areas very stressed and what is it that you are actually trying to achieve?

A lot of the network is stressed, why play favourites?

I mean, why not just get one line up to scratch and finish it off (Like the FGY line finally had done) rather than dragging it out?

It's like in Melbourne. They could easily go and pick one line, remove all the LX ings and get it running efficiently, but instead they choose to grade separate a random set of crossings around the city for political reasons, so the net benefit is actually SFA.

[petey3801]

No I not saying my way is the best and only way. Its just a suggestion or an alt view point as are all my posts intended to be. My job at work is to challenge the staus quo and I'm doing it here.

Not saying your way is wrong either, but just not really as appropriate in this instance. Unfortunately, here isn't really the place to be challenging said status quo, we're just dealing with what actually happens.

Building main line track costs $Xm/km. Building bridges, costs $Xm + alot more. I don't how much that is and if its been costed, feel free to share. But I'd say $100m and why it was Single tracked in the first place? Why wasn't the bridge built for easy duplication?

Don't know what the $ figure is on duplicating this section, I do know it is in the pipeline and is high on the agenda within QR. As for single track and not built for easy duplication, the whole line from Ormeau to Robina was build as single track, remember. Cost savings and they weren't expecting the line to boom the way it has.

Also remember, there are more bridges along that section other than just the Coomera River bridge. There are 4 on the northern side of the Coomera River (three small, one larger one) and three fairly long bridges to the south. Only one of the bridges has been built for easy duplication.

I travelled on a number of networks now that have short single track sections on greater frequency than 15min simply because of cost for limited return. I believe the yank have duplicated freight lines that often only have single track bridges. For example Bangkok has a single station platform on a elevated metro line because the space available was the width of two tracks only.

That's all well on good for lines like the Cleveland line or Doomben, which are sub 100km/h lines. But on a line with a top speed of 140km/h, it's not quite as simple. Especially when QR regards 80km/h points as high speed.
If they wanted to make 140km/h narrow gauge points, I would imagine they would have already done it, 1) for the Gold Coast line to start with and 2) for the North Coast line with the Tilt Train upgrade works. The fact they didn't just shows either 140km/h narrow gauge points aren't feasible or they're simply way too expensive to bother with. And they are very expensive. They require a large area to be installed, several motors to move, plus the maintenance required. Considering in the Netherlands, where significant amounts of the network is 140km/h (and higher) rated, and they only use high speed points where absolutely needed, that tells me they are very, very expensive.

In my opinion, if they're going to duplicate the Coomera - Helensvale section, they might as well do it right the first time and do the lot. Unless they come up with some 130-140km/h points, which I don't see as being likely, just duplicate the bridge and then it's done.

[ezekial]

Is there any way to access data on trips made across the QR network?  I mean detailed to the point that you can see the number of touch-ons and touch-offs at each station per day, would this require an RTI request?

[petey3801]

On the north coast line they have many straight through points rated at 160, Borenden (spelling). Is one that comes to mind. How ever on the mostly fast run south of Bundy, its plauged with many slower, some as low as 80.

Rest I guess we see how it goes.

Straight through points (ie: Using the non-diverging route) is no worries in most cases, and on the GC is 140km/h (where normal track speed is that high). It's the diverging route where the speeds come in to play.

I thought this is what this website is all about?

Yes, but unfortunately the media etc. really couldn't care less about point speeds, 1) because they generally won't understand it and 2) the general public won't understand it. Those sort of things we need to hammer directly at QR/Government, as they're the only ones who will be even remotely interested, and by what I know of QR, they are not interested at all.

[SurfRail]

I've only just realised that Melbourne has the same issue with (what is now called) their "Metro Rail Capacity Project" (formerly Melbourne Metro).

The southern portal for the tunnel will be located just south of South Yarra, which is the junction for the Sandringham line away from the Caulfield group lines (Frankston, Pakenham, Cranbourne and V/Line to the Latrobe Valley and beyond).

If you want to get from the Pakenham or Cranbourne lines to Sandringham, you will need to change at Caulfield to an all stations Frankston train and then change trains at South Yarra - alternately make your way by bus or tram from Caulfield to the Sandringham line and then change (eg at Balaclava).

In earlier iterations of the project, the portal would have been at Caulfield (junction for the Frankston line), so it would have been unavoidable anyway.  There is a similar unavoidable problem with there being no transfer between the Arden and North Melbourne stations (although if coming from the west of Footscray you will be able to change onto a train via the tunnel there).  Similarly with a CRR portal at Yeerongpilly which would have meant a transfer to get to say Fairfield.

The difference?  The Frankston and Sandringham lines are both going to be running at 10 minute headways or better even in the off-peak when the tunnel is built - Frankston already does.  There is no evidence of Beenleigh, Gold Coast or Cleveland trains running at 10 minute headways outside of the immediate peak.

Other than that the parallels are interesting.  (Based on the portal location a station is probably not achievable at South Yarra, but I am not yet convinced about the same at Park Road.)

[Fattious]

Speculation this morning on 612 ABC regarding the barge between Kangaroo Point and Botanical Gardens. They have been advised an announcement to be made later today.

Port control confirmed vessel is Mervan (SP?), but are not aware of what activity they are undertaking.

MSQ website lists phone number for Brisbane regional harbour master, which is disconnected (probably due to the 15,000 less public servants not maintaining the content).

Audience asked to help confirm as they have been unable to get on the the various authorities.

Probably UBAT Sample testing, similar to when a barge was near the Albert St area for CRR.

[ozbob]

Yo, there was a statement I think indicating that UBAT geotechnical survey work would be beginning in the river Jan 2014.  Yes, is for UBAT.

[ozbob]

Twitter

Alison Ryan ‏@al_ryan78 3h

@SpencerHowson @612brisbane In the river between KP cliffs and Gardens. Surveying works for proposed ped bridge?
http://t.co/1XrtmOnfaj



==============

Twitter

Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow 2h

@al_ryan78 @612brisbane @SpencerHowson Geotechnical survey work for @UBATBrisbane

[ozbob]

Twitter

Robyn Ironside ‏@ironsider 3m

Premier and Lord Mayor getting kitted up to board a barge in the Brisbane River. #qldpol http://t.co/Cwq0WhFM2t

[ozbob]

http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2014/1/16/river-drilling-starts-on-underground-bus-and-train-project

Premier
The Honourable Campbell Newman
Thursday, January 16, 2014

River drilling starts on Underground Bus and Train project

Geotechnical drilling under the Brisbane River has started as part of planning works for the $5 billion Underground Bus and Train project.

Premier Campbell Newman, Acting Transport and Main Roads Minister Lawrence Springborg and Lord Mayor Graham Quirk visited the Sea Lift 7 barge today which started geotechnical drilling investigations.

"The drilling work is one of the first steps in a project that will revolutionise public transport in Brisbane," Mr Newman said.

"This exciting transport solution will create 18,400 full-time jobs and reinforce this government's commitment to deliver better infrastructure and better planning.

"The samples will be gathered by drilling at least 13 holes up to 60 metres deep into the river bed.

"The drill is located on a large barge that will move locations over the next few days between Lower River Terrace Park in Kangaroo Point and the City Botanic Gardens."

Mr Springborg said the underground project would address bus and rail congestion for an affordable price.

"Unlike Labor's unaffordable options, this project combines rail and bus in a single, double-decked, 15-metre-wide tunnel located about 50 metres below the Brisbane River," Mr Springborg said.

"The tunnel will be carved from the earth by the largest, hard rock tunnel-boring machine ever used in Australia.

"A land-based drilling program will commence at the end of January at various locations along the proposed alignment to confirm the depth and location of the tunnel and stations."

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk said the 5.4-kilometre north-south tunnel with new underground stations at Woolloongabba, George Street and Roma Street would provide a critical new link in South East Queensland's public transport network.

"This project is a great example of different levels of government working together to address the city's public transport capacity issues," Cr Quirk said.

"It will double the capacity of the rail and bus networks, take pressure off existing infrastructure and make way for future growth."

Drilling is expected to be completed by April. The Terms of Reference for the project's Environmental Impact Statement was released by the Coordinator-General this week signalling the start of a rigorous whole-of-government assessment of the potential impacts of the project.

[ENDS] 16 January 2014

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Brisbane underground network: Newman Government doesn't know how to fund but work begins anyway

[BrizCommuter]

The difference?  The Frankston and Sandringham lines are both going to be running at 10 minute headways or better even in the off-peak when the tunnel is built - Frankston already does.  There is no evidence of Beenleigh, Gold Coast or Cleveland trains running at 10 minute headways outside of the immediate peak.

There is no evidence of the outer Beenleigh Line and Gold Coast Line even running at 15 minute off-peak.
As we all know quadruplication would probably be required between Salisbury and Kuraby for this to occur.

[Derwan]

Drilling beside the old Goprint building today - presumably the location of the underground Woolloongabba Station.

[ozbob]

Geo-technical drill survey barge in Brisbane River at Kangaroo Point  - UBAT tunnel will pass underneath this location







Photographs R Dow 21st January 2014

[ozbob]

UBAT drilling still occurring at Woolloongabba, near the Government building







Photographs R Dow 6th February 2014

[ozbob]

http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2014/2/11/underground-needs-a-name

Minister for Transport and Main Roads
The Honourable Scott Emerson
Tuesday, February 11, 2014

Underground needs a name

One of Queensland's largest infrastructure projects needs a name.

Transport and Main Roads Minister Scott Emerson and Brisbane Lord Mayor Graham Quirk will today launch a two-week competition which will see one Queenslander become part of history by naming the Underground Bus and Train project.

"This is a once-in-a-generation project and it needs a unique name to match," Mr Emerson said

"The best name, chosen by an independent panel, will also win six months of free travel on the TransLink network and the two runners up will each receive go cards with $50 travel credit.

"Through better planning as we promised at the election, we are delivering better infrastructure to transform Brisbane's public transport system.

"We're providing for the future, not living in the public transport past as Labor was.

"I'll also be entering a suggestion that represents the faster, more frequent, direct and reliable public transport that the project will provide for thousands of commuters."

The Underground project combines a railway and busway in a single, 15-metre-wide tunnel, running from Dutton Park in the south to Victoria Park in the north.

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk said the 5.4 kilometre north-south tunnel will have new underground stations located at Woolloongabba, George Street and Roma Street, providing a critical new link in South East Queensland's public transport network.

"Brisbane's infrastructure has some great names, from the historic William Jolly, Captain Cook and Queen Victoria to modern infrastructure named after Clem Jones, the Go Betweens, Eleanor Schonell and Legacy Way," Cr Quirk said.

"While delivering this project will be a job for some of the most skilled engineers in the world, naming it will be down to the expertise of everyday Queenslanders.

"This project is a great example of different levels of government working together to address the city's public transport capacity issues."

Once completed, the project will lay the foundation for an international-standard 'turn up and go' transit system for Brisbane.

Entry is via the Get Involved website at www.tmr.qld.gov.au/undergroundcomp and is open until February 23, 2014. For further information on the project visit www.tmr.qld.gov.au/UBAT.

[ozbob]

My suggestion:

Henry Dalziel VC Tunnel

Queensland Railways Victoria Cross Winner.  Henry Dalziel (1893-1965), soldier, locomotive fireman and farmer, was born on 18 February 1893 at Irvinebank, Queensland, son of James Dalziel, miner, and his wife Eliza Maggie, née McMillan, both of whom were native-born. He was educated at Irvinebank and became a fireman on the Cairns-Atherton railway.

For valour during the battle of Hamel on 4 July 1918 Dalziel won the thousandth Victoria Cross awarded.

Naming UBAT after Dalziel would honour all VCs and important transport connection.  He was a great but oft unheralded Queenslander.

http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/dalziel-henry-5876

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Scott Emerson wants to name Brisbane Underground after 1970s band The Riptides

[STB]

Couriermail --> Scott Emerson wants to name Brisbane Underground after 1970s band The Riptides

[Derwan]

I wonder if that was a deliberate attempt to generate interest in coming up with a better name!!

[ozbob]

I don't think  he was serious, well I hope he wasn't, probably just a hook ... 

Riptides were around UQ probably about when the Minister was at UQ as a student ..

[James]

I really don't understand this obsession with naming things after people, especially with full names.

I still call the Eleanor Schonell Bridge the 'Green Bridge' and the Sir Leo Hilscher Bridges the 'Gateway Bridge' (goodness knows how a public servant got something so grand as that named after him). Keep the Gateway the Gateway, and call the Green Bridge the Schonell Bridge.

In terms of a name for the tunnel, I think it should be named the BUM - Brisbane Underground Metro.
'I'm just leaving the BUM now.'
'When you travel in the BUM its all dark and you can't see anything.'
'There are so many air-carrying buses in the BUM!'

[ozbob]

[techblitz]

In terms of a name for the tunnel, I think it should be named the BUM - Brisbane Underground Metro.
'I'm just leaving the BUM now.'
'When you travel in the BUM its all dark and you can't see anything.'
'There are so many air-carrying buses in the BUM!'

[Derwan]

In terms of a name for the tunnel, I think it should be named the BUM - Brisbane Underground Metro.
'I'm just leaving the BUM now.'
'When you travel in the BUM its all dark and you can't see anything.'
'There are so many air-carrying buses in the BUM!'

'I go in and out of the BUM on a daily basis.'
'The entrance to the BUM is called the BUM hole.'
'I'm taking a train up the BUM.'

I think I should stop there.   

[#Metro]

Sir Joh and Flo Tunnel 

</trolling>

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Brisbane Underground name competition