BaT - Bus and Train project (was UBAT, was no CRR)

[somebody]

^ Disagree. One track railway would be worse than zero - like buying a car without wheels - it would cost money but the benefits would be grossly negative PLUS you could put out a lot of media releases from your Gov't PR department and it would be useless and half baked.

PERFECT IDEA!!

What exactly is it that you are disagreeing with?

[SurfRail]

One track railway would be worse than zero

Just like the ones we built to the Gold Coast & Airport in the '90s.

I suppose the Cross River Rail equivalent would be building one functional tunnel, and then building a non-functional tunnel with no rails, traction gear or signalling, and a big gap under the Brisbane River which breaks it into 2.

By the way, has anybody had a detailed look at the alignment plans?  The NWTC connection appears to face north-east and is roughly where the car wash sheds are.  It almost looks like the NWTC would have to pass under the RBH to get there...

[petey3801]

c: all to Manly
d: all to Park Rd, Morningside, Manly all to Cleveland

all running at 5tph

Pointless having such a large express run with the all stopper only 10 mins (at most with current signalling) in front. As it is, with the stoppers 11-13mins in front of the express trains (EXP PKR - MNY) the express is on restricted signals around Lindum.

I'd say go for Park Road to Wynnum North stopping only at Morningside. It'll probably take a similar amount of time in reality as running exp to Manly.

Fair enough, but current timings have only 6-8 minutes saved by the Park Rd to Manly express.

Yes, but that timetable has a lot of room in it. Anytime i've worked the Cleveland expresses, i've caught up to the stopper by Wynnum North at the latest, and that wasn't even really pushing the speeds! Just cruising along, cause I knew we would catch the stopper anyway... Same think in the AM, catch up to the stopper by Cannon Hill/Morningside (which makes the descent to Norman Park even bloody slower...).

One track railway would be worse than zero

Don't tempt them!!! They'll build a single track CRR (MAYBE with dual track platforms, if we're really lucky...) and make it peak direction running only!

[ozbob]

As LD has mentioned somewhere, difficulty in getting in and out of CBD could lead to some decentralisation.

To also assist with the radial congestion peak flows a  better cross suburban bus network should be properly developed, akin to the Melbourne Smart Bus program ( http://corp.ptv.vic.gov.au/projects/buses/smartbus/ ), with the frequency and connections.

[#Metro]

, in this group of late too many saying "its Cancelled", when no body even Newman has never said it was cancelled.

Not cancelled, just being built in the year 3033...

I think Abbott is serious re: no funding. The seat is marginal and he doesn't seem to care that he'll probably lose it.

[ozbob]

Support for CRR is massive in the community @RTT.  One has to look at the many  proper blogs and polls.

I don't now where you get your wonky ideas from, but any close observer of Brisbane media, any active participant in Brisbane media knows that over the past 4 years a  tremendous ground swell of support has been garnered for Cross River Rail.

The CM blogs are often selectively edited.  Fairfax seem to be much more balanced.

eg. http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/brisbane-live/brisbane-live-at-work-wednesday-may-22-20130521-2jyk1.html#post_live_38898

[BrizCommuter]

The Independent Review of CRR estimated that the early capacity enhancement works would cost $300m.  The state budget must include this figure and show how the money will be raised.  If the state does not recognise that $300m is needed, we are in strife!  It will be a government in denial on transport infrastructure needs.

They actually need to introduce the stage 2 timetable, doing as much as they can with current track capacity and train resources, then properly assess loadings etc, to decide what "capacity enhancement works" need to be done.

[Stillwater]

Agreed, but you still need to have the money set aside.

[BrizCommuter]

A reasonably in depth look at plan B options due to the "postponement" of CRR.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/plan-b-again.html

[ozbob]

A reasonably in depth look at plan B options due to the "postponement" of CRR.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/plan-b-again.html

Thanks!

[#Metro]

A nice article Brizcommuter.

Some ugly options there. I think though that South Brisbane termination is the fastest and cheapest of the lot. Little or no new infrastructure required and can be done rapidly compared to other measures.

Next easiest is deleting all express services from the Cleveland line (and making everything stop all stops there).

I'd put extreme fare increases during peak (or a toll on the merivale bridge) as next hardest. Again, not much by way of new infrastructure to implement that.

There is room on the bus system in peak (up to 50%) and we know this because a lot of air is carried into the CBD by the buses thanks to the DSN (direct service network) configuration of it. Trains feeding buses - only in Brisbane!!

All of these options are extraordinarily ugly, horrible and should not be taken as a first line resort.

Politicians of both sides need a good kick in the pants and nothing better than a very big PR disaster to see to that.

[ozbob]

Any real latent capacity with the BT bus network is lost with the network design.  The BCC bus review is only more of the same essentially.

Rail still has capacity in reality overall.  Certainly not seeing the congestion that was common 2007-8 for example.  More trains now.

My guess is with the fares, will go up 7.5%, but off peak discount will be increased.  There might be a couple of other initiatives related to health care card holders and possibly families, but not real confident.  Nothing much else will change.

Sector 2 in 2014 will create a few more peak paths, but radical changes not likely.

BCC are not a team player.  I would like to see TransLink embark on a SmartBus program using competitive tendering.  Done right this can optimise the rail and the rest of the bus network.

[somebody]

Next easiest is deleting all express services from the Cleveland line (and making everything stop all stops there).

Urgh.  With the single track, not every train can reach Cleveland.  The short workings then are likely to be entering the CBD with capacity to spare while the full length runs would be well overcrowded.

[#Metro]

Better an overcrowded train than no train at all.

[somebody]

Better an overcrowded train than no train at all.

Urgh.  Did I say no train at all?

Queenslander!

[BrizCommuter]

Next easiest is deleting all express services from the Cleveland line (and making everything stop all stops there).

That would result in uneven loadings. To balance loads and limit long distance standing, the Cleveland Line should have alternating Cleveland express (? Manly to Morningside), and Manly all stations services in the peaks - probably on a 15 min cycle.

I'd put extreme fare increases during peak (or a toll on the merivale bridge) as next hardest. Again, not much by way of new infrastructure to implement that.

There are already extreme fares in the peaks - they are world's 3rd most expensive!

[ozbob]

Also agree Briz, turning trains back at South Brisbane will achieve nothing in the end, just inconvenience many.  Is just a throw back to double headed PB15s on the southside ...

[Mr X]

Hmm If the political wankers in George St continue their current stance and on the 'blue team' get in in September, i think any sort of 'logical' solution will be thrown out the window.
- Remove all express services on all lines
- Remove all seating
- Introduce railbuses (similar to the 649) onto the most packed routes using nearby arterial roads

Or we can do what they're doing now and buy time through killing off passenger growth by putting in a 15% fare increase every year until 2020

Never fear, this is QLD! Land of the maroon wasteglider, latin train dancing at Caboolture, suburbs2city bus tunnel (cash funnel) and BCC 'change nothing' bus reviews. we don't need no CRR (or CRR lite, or CRR mini or CRR bus).

[BrizCommuter]

Just a few updates to the plan B blog post:
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/05/plan-b-again.html

[#Metro]

It concerns me that a stifling toxic politics seems to pervade Queensland. Other justisdictions (Melbourne - City Loop/RRL, Perth, Auckland, Ottawa, Toronto) manage to undertake extremely difficult and radical changes and manage to get them done.

Why not us? Why are simple things stuffed? Stuffing things up seems to be a hallmark of Queensland politics, perhaps only paralleled with that in NSW.

Meanwhile in other jurisdictions:

[somebody]

Also agree Briz, turning trains back at South Brisbane will achieve nothing in the end

It'll achieve something, just not very much.

[O_128]

I think the network needs to collapse for anything to be done, Australia has never been know for being proactive, we would rather solve solutions when there is a problem. Lets wait for MBRL and springfield to open up combined with high fuel prices and see what happens. No point arguing with the idiots in poltics, the gateway is obviously much more important.

[somebody]

Australia has never been know for being proactive, we would rather solve solutions when there is a problem.

Australia?  Qld perhaps.

[BrizCommuter]

Also agree Briz, turning trains back at South Brisbane will achieve nothing in the end

It'll achieve something, just not very much.

It will achieve longer journey times, passengers unable to board following trains, cultural centre confusion, and p****d off passengers.

On the plus side, one or two passengers may walk across the Victoria Bridge and get marginally healthier (or sunburnt).

[somebody]

Perhaps it will achieve all of those things, but it will also increase capacity.

[#Metro]

It will achieve longer journey times, passengers unable to board following trains, cultural centre confusion, and p****d off passengers.

On the plus side, one or two passengers may walk across the Victoria Bridge and get marginally healthier (or sunburnt).

It is important that people are Pi%%sed off. Failure needs to be seen and felt for what it is.
That is how you get people into action.

I agree with O_128, system has to collapse for people to sit up and notice.

I also was about today, wondered why QR uses coaches from as far away as Glasshouse Mountains. Why not use BT buses? They're just sitting idle in the depots around Brisbane and are already GoCard equipped. Simply touch on and off.

[Mr X]

^ 'Rail passengers? On OUR buses? ick.' clearly BCC sees trains as a 3rd world transport solution. absolutely crazy.

[ozbob]

Because the cost of hiring the buses is much cheaper with the non-BT operators .....

The BT go card gear would need to be programmed for rail replacement stops as well.

Oh dear,  where ever one looks it is a mess  ....

[colinw]

Australia?  Qld perhaps.

Err, no. Its the whole damn country, and indeed most of the Anglosphere bar occasional instances of cities that get it right by accident.

We continue to treat the problem like it is a simple one of infrastructure & policy, when it is a manifestation of a dysfunction that is deeply embedded in our culture.  When we eventually do build CRR or similar, it will be years too late and for the wrong reasons, just like the MBRL.  But the underlying flaws in our culture, and its manifestation in the form of politics, will remain.

[somebody]

Interesting POV colinw!  I'd say that the degree varies.

[TruemanQLD]

Hey first-time poster here,

Been very interested to read attitudes towards CRR, and never fails to disappoint me how Australians on-the-whole (especially QLDers) do not understand how fantastic a great public transport system can be for day-to-day life and the entire economy. Having been to cities like Shanghai, Beijing, Paris and Singapore, I can really appreciate why it is so crucial for a great public transport system here in SEQ. I also dont believe the 'too sparsely populated' argument, while we wont see 4-min train intervals all day, there is no reason that 10mins, and even 5 mins at peak, is not viable. I do think that a properly implemented CRR would be a great help, I also think that the Libs will win the next election and we wont see it until Labor gets back in again (hopefully sooner rather than later - we cant afford to wait any longer).

While I cannot think of a proper-fix, one possibility I thought of is based on the Singapore MRT change for the short-hop to Changi Airport. My idea was to have the Beenleigh line terminate at a redesigned Park Road. If Platform 4 could be redone so boarding was on both sides (similar to Platform 2/3 already), you could have the Beenleigh line terminate at the Platform 3/4 Stop and passengers going into the city would exit on the right (Platform 3) and board the awaiting GC/Cleveland train at Platform 2. Meanwhile, passengers from the City on the GC line will arrive on Platform 4 and disembark and board on the left side of the train which will return to Beenleigh. The only difficulty would be passengers who board a Cleveland bound train would exit at Platform 1 and climb over to Platform 3/4 to board the Beenleigh Line. To compensate for the reduction in capacity over the Merivale, the Cleveland Line and Gold Coast line can have an increased capacity to equal the previous capacity, so thereby giving more overall capacity on those two lines up until Park Road and then maintaining capacity between Park Road and Roma Street, not to mention that the Beenleigh line can be increased since it doesnt have to cross the Merivale.

While passengers on the Beenleigh line would undoubtably whinge, if the timetable could be set up so there was always a train waiting for them (so only an extra 2 mins on their travel time + they only have to walk across a platform (not up and over)) then any complaints would quickly disappear. This would also solve the issue of GC trains not stopping at Park Road, which is absolutely absurd, the number of UQ Staff/Students that get off at South Bank and rush to the busway to catch the overcrowded 109 back through Boggo Road to UQ Lakes, is ridiculous. Park Road + Busway serve as a great link to UQ and should not be neglected.

While I am not sure exactly what potential train movements over the Merivale are, I would envisage a timetable that would see (off-peak):
2ph - All Stations to Manly
2ph - All Stations to Cleveland
2ph - Express to Manly, all stations to Cleveland (stopping at Morningside)
4ph - Express to Beenleigh, all stations to Varsity Lakes (stopping at Loganlea and Yerrongpilly)
2ph (FUTURE) - Express to Beenleigh then express to Coomera (or Helensvale) - Nerang - Robina then all stations to Coolangatta

That gives 12ph crossing the Merivale, so at most, Beenleigh-line passengers would be waiting 6mins for a train at Park Road into the city.

I realise my plan likely has many flaws in it, especially in the timetable section, and would like to know what they are

[ozbob]

Welcome TruemanQLD!  Thanks for sharing your comments.

Much to do hey?   

Looking at all the options is needed ...

[HappyTrainGuy]

Because the cost of hiring the buses is much cheaper with the non-BT operators .....

The BT go card gear would need to be programmed for rail replacement stops as well.

Oh dear,  where ever one looks it is a mess  ....

Not to mention the other operators have more comfortable buses and can go faster than BT buses

[ozbob]

Signalling improvements are the way forward.   Benefit the whole network.

Terminating trains at South Brisbane is pointless.  Waste of capital expenditure for what gain?  Minimal at best.

[somebody]

I realise my plan likely has many flaws in it, especially in the timetable section, and would like to know what they are

Ok, the most obvious flaw is that Park Rd platform 4 has been deemed unusable.

Second flaw is why should the Gold Coast trains get the run through when they are the least busy of the trains heading over the Merivale Bridge?

Another flaw is turning around on Park Rd #3 is a side turnback rather than a centre turnback.  This practice is discouraged because departing to the south from #3 will conflict with any trains approaching #2 from Dutton Park.

Final flaw is that a sizeable portion people are heading to South Bank and you are stopping short of this destination for reasons that aren't entirely clear.

[ozbob]

Does anyone know if and when platform 4 Park Road was last used?

[somebody]

Does anyone know if and when platform 4 Park Road was last used?

Pretty sure colinw has posted that it has never been used.

[petey3801]

Does anyone know if and when platform 4 Park Road was last used?

Pretty sure colinw has posted that it has never been used.

It has been used, it's just extremely rare. I've only heard of it being used once or twice in my 3 1/2yrs in QE.

[ozbob]

Ok thanks all.  I thought the XPT used it once too.

Basically not used.

Meanwhile


This is interesting ...

http://www.bda.org.au/events/2012/the-inner-city-rail-the-solution

Talk fest at Tatts on 28 Mar 2013

The Newman Government understands the critically important role that passenger rail will play in supporting the next phase of growth within the CBD, and expects:

"Over the next 25 years, the population in the inner five-kilometre ring surrounding Brisbane's CBD will grow by about 50 per cent, or an extra 90,000 residents. At the same time, the number of workers needing to enter the city each day will double from 200,000 to 400,000."

With a number of exciting new developments planned within the CBD, including the catalyst 1 William Street project, set to increase demand for travel to and from the CBD, the passenger rail network will play an increasing role in supporting commuter, tourist and visitor travel.

The Hon Scott Emerson MP, Minister for Transport and Main Roads, will provide an update on the Newman Government's strategy to deal with capacity constraints on our rail network and the prospects for the Brisbane Inner-City Rail Solution over the next two decades.

His presentation will also touch on longer term planning for public transport bringing high capacity and high frequency services to Brisbane to further support the unprecedented inner-city population and employment boom.

[techblitz]

All the more reason to keep the inner city buz services the way they are...if that is the projected inner city population growth. Even the maroon glider has hope east of the cc !