BaT - Bus and Train project (was UBAT, was no CRR)

[#Metro]

Once we start getting into stuff like splitting tunnels and running off street allignments that curve under skyscraper foundations then you are getting away from the whole efficiency of the single 15m wide bore that was going to make this somewhat viable.

The plan serves the project, not the other way around.
The project is to serve the people, not the other way around.

If the plan needs to be changed, change it.
If the project needs to be changed, change it.
The whole thing only exists on paper. For now.
Now is the time to make the changes, once it is built the $$$ to change is going to be impossible.

The alignment is all wrong and must be reviewed. People who want to transfer can do so at KGS/INB. They can do so at stations before the dive under Park Road to the Beenleigh line, they can change to buses for 400 series destinations. I'd rather some transfer users get hit with double interchange rather than all users get this grossly defective alignment which sends buses exactly where they are not required. People need access to Adelaide St, CBD Downtown and Fortitude Valley.

I have no issue with trains going to Roma St. I DO have an issue with the buses following the trains that way.

[#Metro]

There is little reason why a bus to the Western Suburbs could not originate at W'Gabba busway, continue through the busway via South Bank, cross the river, dive under Queen St into KGS busway and continue via the 444 alignment. That would use up only 1 transfer.

[Gazza]

I think it's Hyperbole to say it's Grossly Inadequate.

Bit rich to say that, while simultaneously downplaying any flaws in your own proposal.

Surfrail made an excellent post on SSC...Would you say that Bondi Junction is a failure because it doesn't go via Wynyard or Circular Quay?

Here is the coverage within 400m of each major station after the UBAT is built.


If we expand that to 800m, it looks like this.


Problem?

[#Metro]

I think it's Hyperbole to say it's Grossly Inadequate.

Bit rich to say that, while simultaneously downplaying any flaws in your own proposal.

Surfrail made an excellent post on SSC...Would you say that Bondi Junction is a failure because it doesn't go via Wynyard or Circular Quay?

Well we don't live a perfect world do we now???

No, the buses should go down the axis from the CBD to the Valley, as they all do now.

[#Metro]

.Would you say that Bondi Junction is a failure because it doesn't go via Wynyard or Circular Quay?

Yes, defective because it does not connect at St James. Status Quo fallacy??

Also deficient as it does not extend to Bondi Beach and my personal experience of the bus down there is that it is packed to the gunwales and bursting with pax at all hours of the day.

It is now stuck on a poo alignment like that forever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Circle

What Bradfield wanted



What they actually built

[SurfRail]

Martin Place is too close to St James for there to be another stop on the ESR.  Moving Martin Place closer to St James also makes it less useful for the business end of town.  Any transfer that could be effected at St James can currently be effected at Town Hall, plus more.

Point being that the factors inhibiting the ESR do not go to the route it takes via the city, and specifically that it doesn't matter that you need to transfer to get to Wynyard or CQ.

Overwhelmingly, people do not sit on buses all the way to the Valley, so I can't see why we would need to build a tunnel for buses there.  Keep in mind that in theory bus stations could be built at Gregory Terrace, Spring Hill, and the QSM without requiring corresponding rail stations in those spots

[BrizCommuter]

I think it's Hyperbole to say it's Grossly Inadequate.

Bit rich to say that, while simultaneously downplaying any flaws in your own proposal.

Surfrail made an excellent post on SSC...Would you say that Bondi Junction is a failure because it doesn't go via Wynyard or Circular Quay?

Here is the coverage within 400m of each major station after the UBAT is built.


If we expand that to 800m, it looks like this.


Problem?

The actual location of station entrances may make quite a difference to coverage patterns. More information is required from TMR.

[ozbob]

Hello world ...
Mark time ... left right left right left ....

[Gazza]

The actual location of station entrances may make quite a difference to coverage patterns. More information is required from TMR.

It woudn't change that much though...George St will slide north or south which in the end only really means a bit less of QUT gets covered, and the edge of the Queen St Mall would fall under the 400m radius.

[ozbob]

 

[newbris]

Great Legacy Way will be connected. Being a bit dim I initially was imagining new ramps creating a direct connection to the Legacy Way tunnel entrance but finally worked out that the UBAT will really be connected to the ICB, rather than Legacy Way, a fair way north of the Legacy Way portal nearer to the RBH.

Inbound they will exit the normal Legacy Way/ICB portal, travel north/east along the ICB and then exit the ICB near the hospital and then use the existing INB busway bridge to cross the ICB towards Bowen Bridge Rd before doubling back into the UBAT tunnel.

Outbound the buses will exit the UBAT onto a new ramp that double backs onto the south/west bound lanes of the ICB. The buses will then change lane to the right lane with the general traffic and enter the Legacy Way through the standard ICB/Legacy Way portal. 

Thought I'd restate it here for people who missed it in the original press release.

[huddo45]

Overwhelmingly, people do not sit on buses all the way to the Valley, so I can't see why we would need to build a tunnel for buses there.  Keep in mind that in theory bus stations could be built at Gregory Terrace, Spring Hill, and the QSM without requiring corresponding rail stations in those spots

Unlike back in the Good Old Days when everyone rode the trams through the City to the Valley to Shop at Mc Whirter's or T.C. Beirne's. The idea of a tunnel is nothing new, but with much nicer vehicles :-).

[#Metro]

Overwhelmingly, people do not sit on buses all the way to the Valley, so I can't see why we would need to build a tunnel for buses there.  Keep in mind that in theory bus stations could be built at Gregory Terrace, Spring Hill, and the QSM without requiring corresponding rail stations in those spots

Well, consider that there are 50+ bus routes that travel between the CBD and the Valley it may not be obvious to the eye. The Valley is a major destination and very recently is undergoing urban renewal with call centres, gov't offices, residential etc. I'm surprised that there isn't a decent woolies there yet.

Remember 199, 196, CityGlider are some of the BUSIEST bus routes on the entire system. The purpose of sending transit up the Queen Street axis is to replace this hi-waste fan of buses with one single legible line.

[#Metro]

Unlike back in the Good Old Days when everyone rode the trams through the City to the Valley to Shop at Mc Whirter's or T.C. Beirne's. The idea of a tunnel is nothing new, but with much nicer vehicles :-).

Thanks for this, Toronto had the same idea and there are tram tunnels in the Toronto CBD as part of this idea.

[James]

Well, consider that there are 50+ bus routes that travel between the CBD and the Valley it may not be obvious to the eye. The Valley is a major destination and very recently is undergoing urban renewal with call centres, gov't offices, residential etc. I'm surprised that there isn't a decent woolies there yet.

Or they could all be carrying air, and those with decent patronage not having pax get off in the Valley. I think the Valley is served well enough at this point, and I don't see it being a 'booming residential area' - I'd give that to Newstead/Teneriffe.

The crux of the BUM is that the bus tunnel really needs to go in one area and the train tunnel in the other. The only decent alignment I can think of right now is sending the tunnel from George Street up to Central, Spring Hill then out around Victoria Park, with possible surface tunnelling to allow the buses to exit earlier. Alternatively, the current alignment could be kept, but buses would either be sent to terminate, or fed into some form of SW Busway, which could take the form of bus lanes in Legacy Way.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Overwhelmingly, people do not sit on buses all the way to the Valley, so I can't see why we would need to build a tunnel for buses there.  Keep in mind that in theory bus stations could be built at Gregory Terrace, Spring Hill, and the QSM without requiring corresponding rail stations in those spots

Well, consider that there are 50+ bus routes that travel between the CBD and the Valley it may not be obvious to the eye. The Valley is a major destination and very recently is undergoing urban renewal with call centres, gov't offices, residential etc. I'm surprised that there isn't a decent woolies there yet.

Remember 199, 196, CityGlider are some of the BUSIEST bus routes on the entire system. The purpose of sending transit up the Queen Street axis is to replace this hi-waste fan of buses with one single legible line.

Don't forget to consider that alot of those valley bus routes can be cut and merged into other routes to reduce congestion and make better use of resources While they might be popular I'd personally like to see a breakdown of some of these services combined with other current routes. Just because its the CBD doesn't mean that duplication isn't a problem. It would be interesting to know if some services could be cut with patronage transferred onto other services such as the 199, Cityglider or via busway services. A prime example would be the 370 deletion 330/333/370 merger. You could even add the Stafford/Grange 370's, those 170/180's from Mt Gravvatt to that list aswell.

Who knows maybe even some sort of Woolloongabba-RBWH via Downtown Brisbane/Valley to make use of the recent developments going on between Bowen Hills and Fortitude Valley could be a possibility with some under performing routes getting cut at busways/interchanges instead of running all the way to the centre of Brisbane be it terminating in the Valley or in the City.

[#Metro]

The crux of the BUM is that the bus tunnel really needs to go in one area and the train tunnel in the other. The only decent alignment I can think of right now is sending the tunnel from George Street up to Central, Spring Hill then out around Victoria Park, with possible surface tunnelling to allow the buses to exit earlier. Alternatively, the current alignment could be kept, but buses would either be sent to terminate, or fed into some form of SW Busway, which could take the form of bus lanes in Legacy Way.

We need a BUM crack so buses can exit.

There are a few formulations of my proposal, I will have to adopt sub numbering when I get around to it so we all know what's what. You're right, the trains need to go one way, the buses another. Or some variation thereof.

The problem with Legacy way is that (a) only really useful in peak hour, (b) no demand generators in the tunnel for many km. This is like route 77 - it's fast and (almost) useless. Why? Because it misses Coro Drive and Toowong where the demand is.

Don't forget to consider that alot of those valley bus routes can be cut and merged into other routes to reduce congestion and make better use of resources

Absolutely. But I suspect the issue is space, there isn't enough space in the CBD to fit all the buses. So now you have to ask, if there is no space in the CBD, where is the bus going to terminate to drop off it's CBD pax?? I could say, terminate at a busway or rail station, but we have this connectionphobic planning paradigm.

While they might be popular I'd personally like to see a breakdown of some of these services combined with other current routes. Just because its the CBD doesn't mean that duplication isn't a problem. It would be interesting to know if some services could be cut with patronage transferred onto other services such as the 199, Cityglider or via busway services.

Sure. But cut where? Wooloongabba? You have 100s of rocket fired everywhere into the CBD, they have to have enough space to terminate somewhere.

Who knows maybe even some sort of Woolloongabba-RBWH via Downtown Brisbane/Valley to make use of the recent developments going on between Bowen Hills and Fortitude Valley could be a possibility with some under performing routes getting cut at busways/interchanges instead of running all the way to the centre of Brisbane be it terminating in the Valley or in the City.

I agree. Now you go off in your flameproof suit and tell BCC that. 

[techblitz]

Whats with the bum talk james and LD 
Anyways...

Brisbanetimes --> Pedestrian bridge to link Princess Alexandra Hospital to Park Road Station

A pedestrian bridge will be built from the city end of the Princess Alexandra Hospital across to the Park Road Rail Station and Busway at Buranda, Transport Minister Scott Emerson said on Tuesday.
That is about 660 metres from Dutton Park Station, which is going to be demolished and the land resumed as part of the $5 billion new Brisbane Underground rail project.
The project plans to run buses and trains underground between Dutton Park and Bowen Hills but not until 2021, three years after Labor's planned Cross River Rail was to be running.
Mr Emerson said the direct link from the city end of the hospital across to Park Road Station would also provide extra buses, as well as the trains.
Advertisement
"The PA Hospital Busway Station will have a significant increase in bus services, and more direct services to the city with the Underground Bus and Train project," he said.
The 196 high frequency BUZ route, as well as the 107 and 108 bus routes which all stop about 200m from the entrance to the Dutton Park Rail Station, will continue, he said.
The connection to Park Road station and busway will be welcomed by hospital nurses who on Tuesday were angry because no alternative to closing Dutton Park had been explained to them. They rejected suggestions they could walk the 20 minutes to Buranda train station at night.


Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/pedestrian-bridge-to-link-princess-alexandra-hospital-to-park-road-station-20131119-2xtgf.html#ixzz2l6Sdabru

[HappyTrainGuy]

CHARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is like route 77 - it's fast and (almost) useless. Why? Because it misses Coro Drive and Toowong where the demand is.

Not completely. The 77 is a fantastic route that is poorly managed. Especially when it comes to promotion and its advantages. The overall network design isn't 100% helping its cause either unfortunately either is it's route design around Chermside but the biggest advantage of the 77 is the peak hour time savings. There's been multiple trips where I've been a minimum of 20 minutes faster than going via the CBD on 2 express buses (330/130) [/plug for route 77]

Sure. But cut where? Wooloongabba? You have 100s of rocket fired everywhere into the CBD, they have to have enough space to terminate somewhere.

As you said firing those rockets from the burbs to stations would be better. Especially with the next stage of the rail network review. I'm not too familiar with south/east/west routes but an example would be better management of the Gympie Road/Inner City Busway via Valley corridors. Both in peak hour and off peak. Do the 334, 335, 354, 360, 361, 364, 370, 375 all have to go to the valley or could some be cut at Kedron/RBWH bus station to connect with the existing buz routes/66 route. Could the 375/376 be put onto 369 services with a transfer at Kedron. Could the 379 form a loop route taking over the stops that the 370/375/376 did between Lutyche-Kedron-Stafford Road. Could other services that terminate in the city be extended to RBWHBS with higher capacity buses aswell such as the 111. The 376... does that have to go along Gympie Road and then the inner city busway before going to Ashgrove/Bardon or wherever it terminates (might be confusing it with the 377 leg). 310... does that really need to go to the city with the amount of patronage it has off peak.

The south east busway could be performing better. Make the 111 prepaid, consider cutting that stupid 160 rocket that stops at like 3 stops and maybe bump up its frequency - similar to the Glider routes (needs more buses to terminate along the busway to make it worth wild).Get rid of the 161/162 aswell. There's more on the southside/eastern suburbs but I'm not too familiar with the exact route numbers but there's plenty of cuts that can be made. It just needs the correct network design to make the absolute most out of it.


The real question should be why does Brisbane have so many rockets.

[#Metro]

Not completely. The 77 is a fantastic route that is poorly managed. Especially when it comes to promotion and its advantages. The overall network design isn't 100% helping its cause either unfortunately either is it's route design around Chermside but the biggest advantage of the 77 is the peak hour time savings. There's been multiple trips where I've been a minimum of 20 minutes faster than going via the CBD on 2 express buses (330/130) [/plug for route 77]

There are very good reasons why route 77 and others like it are poor routes.

Lack of combination of markets. Route 77 is only useful for people who have Chermside or Nth busway destinations as their destination. It doesn't combine markets well and there are no demand generators inside the tunnel. It misses RBWH. I'm not disputing that it is fast - so was my personal home rocket 161, and that ran ALL DAY. It isn't just about speed - but speed and frequency and utility. Rocket 161 ran express all the way to Garden City with one stop at Griffith University. Why wasn't it bursting with pax? Because you could catch a 111 and beat it due to waiting time. And you couldn't use 161 for other busway stations or destinations. Same issue with route 77 and will be the same issue with Legacy Way Tunnel.

Routes like 77 are good during peak when demand is so high you can reach these destinations without too much air. But off peak, not useful at all and the resources would be better put elsewhere.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The 77 does tend to get some good loadings during peak hour. Not full to the brim loadings. It's a route that should be frequent during peak hour only. Cut the day time runs.

[SurfRail]

^ No different to the express services which only run in peak between Belconnen and Tuggeranong and Belconnen and Woden in Canberra.  All other times of the day, you have the Blue Rapid.

[huddo45]

If having buses on the top deck of the tunnel gets us a $5B tunnel for trains to enter the city, I say go for it. It will never be converted to light rail (in our life time) so put that out of mind in consideration.

One can have one's cake and eat it too.

Light rail and buses share the same tunnel in Seattle.



The GCLR opening is only eight months away, Brisbane people then will be asking 'Where's OURr light rail system?' I saw a newspaper poll on the C-M website some time ago where the vast majority of Brisbaneites were in favour of light rail.

[James]

We need a BUM crack so buses can exit.

There are a few formulations of my proposal, I will have to adopt sub numbering when I get around to it so we all know what's what. You're right, the trains need to go one way, the buses another. Or some variation thereof.

The problem with Legacy way is that (a) only really useful in peak hour, (b) no demand generators in the tunnel for many km. This is like route 77 - it's fast and (almost) useless. Why? Because it misses Coro Drive and Toowong where the demand is.

I would argue the worst part of a Legacy Way busway is that it misses Indooroopilly when it continues via the M5 (or has to make a time-wasting diversion). Another option would be to connect it up with Waterworks Road and turn the T3 lanes into full-time bus lanes, and (possibly) subsequently widen Waterworks Road *ducks*. Long-term you'd construct a North-West busway, but on the whole, it's a good thing as then you can create busway 'sectors' (Eastern - NW and SE - Northern). In the busway network, BUM just seems like a misplaced piece of infrastructure.

Whats with the bum talk james and LD 

It's because UBAT sounds like a name you'd use to refer to a bat which has lost its marbles (or making a subtle reference to U-Boats...), so I figure BUM (Brisbane Underground Metro) sounds nicer, plus you can make a lot of great BUM jokes. Shooting into the BUM, expelling air from the BUM, stop shoving buses in my BUM, Tony Abbott would never act gay so he'd never even touch Campbell's BUM, yet alone fund it, etc.

With regards to the 77: The bus review network actually made the 77 useful. In a connective network, when everybody connects at shopping centres, to have a bus which BYPASSES the CBD (taking passengers that don't need to be there with it) is a good thing for congestion and a good thing for those people who don't need to go to the CBD and would have ended up having to double transfer or single transfer with a walk in the CBD.

With a direct services network, the 77 does very little, 330/333/340 pax might as well stay on the bus to the Cultural Centre/KGSBS (for the 340) and change to a 111/160/555, and so many pax aren't being fed to the busway spine (e.g. passengers who would use a route like the 369) and instead proceeding right to the CBD on low frequency, the 77 simply doesn't work. Monday - Friday I would argue there is a very strong argument for the 77. I would further argue that sending it to UQ would help (I know of students who live on the northside, for whom it takes over an hour to travel from their place of residence to UQ), but on the contrary that could result in missing Buranda and could fuss Griffith students.

With regards to the 111/160/555 mess - may I contest that if you combined all these routes, you would only need one route. I was on board multiple busway services over the past few days (off-peak), and I fail to see how we can justify running the 111, 160 and 555 from three locations in direct competition with each other, all carrying loads of ~20 pax. Simply consolidate the route into one to 8MP on 15 minute frequency and one to Springwood on 15 minute frequency, alternating so busway stations get 7.5 minute frequency. I would go further and say at times, there is only a need for one bus route to operate every 15 minutes along the busway spine, especially on weekends.

Yes, there is high demand on the busway - but numerous times I've seen even the flagship service (111) go out with only half seated loads. When there are two other services running the similar/same route, this isn't acceptable, and service must be consolidated. I would argue all demand for the corridor, especially on weekends, could fit on artic buses running every 15 minutes Loganholme - CBD.

[techblitz]

the 77 is like  the railbot backed 369  LOW LOW
Campbell no doubt chose to keep it in service due to it going through his masterpiece `clem7'
he was probably the one who suggested the 330 use the airport link
Next up...Legacy way!

[SurfRail]

the 77 is like  the railbot backed 369  LOW LOW
Campbell no doubt chose to keep it in service due to it going through his masterpiece `clem7'
he was probably the one who suggested the 330 use the airport link
Next up...Legacy way!

Unsurprising.  Like the 369 it has numerous competing routes for the patronage (except in this case many, many, many more).  Would you deliberately wait 25 minutes for one as opposed to just going via the CBD?

Similarly, 369 could never reach its potential while the 375 was still running.  TransLink review diverted the 369 via Lutwyche down Richmond (as suggested by me) and this would have made 15 minute headways viable - no different to how the Smartbuses operate in the north of Melbourne where they intersect tram/train routes.

[techblitz]

interesting how this thread has suddenly turned into a bus review thread...
what...everyone gone quiet now on the park rd issue? 

[STB]

Whats with the bum talk james and LD 
Anyways...

Brisbanetimes --> Pedestrian bridge to link Princess Alexandra Hospital to Park Road Station

A pedestrian bridge will be built from the city end of the Princess Alexandra Hospital across to the Park Road Rail Station and Busway at Buranda, Transport Minister Scott Emerson said on Tuesday.
That is about 660 metres from Dutton Park Station, which is going to be demolished and the land resumed as part of the $5 billion new Brisbane Underground rail project.
The project plans to run buses and trains underground between Dutton Park and Bowen Hills but not until 2021, three years after Labor's planned Cross River Rail was to be running.
Mr Emerson said the direct link from the city end of the hospital across to Park Road Station would also provide extra buses, as well as the trains.
Advertisement
"The PA Hospital Busway Station will have a significant increase in bus services, and more direct services to the city with the Underground Bus and Train project," he said.
The 196 high frequency BUZ route, as well as the 107 and 108 bus routes which all stop about 200m from the entrance to the Dutton Park Rail Station, will continue, he said.
The connection to Park Road station and busway will be welcomed by hospital nurses who on Tuesday were angry because no alternative to closing Dutton Park had been explained to them. They rejected suggestions they could walk the 20 minutes to Buranda train station at night.


Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/pedestrian-bridge-to-link-princess-alexandra-hospital-to-park-road-station-20131119-2xtgf.html#ixzz2l6Sdabru

Wait, does this mean that there will be a Park Road station for the UBAT?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Would you deliberately wait 25 minutes for one as opposed to just going via the CBD

If it ran straight into Chermside interchange and via Airport link too I would wait as it would still be faster than going via the city.

Echoing what James and Surfrail have said. Across the network there are just too many routes duplicating sections of other routes. The whole 111/160/163/555 is a good example along the busway. 330/333/334/335/340/360/370/375/379 along Gympie Road-Valley is another. It would be far better to have a proper integrated network to then really take the advantage of all the busways that lead into the city by running higher capacity and more frequent services.

[MaxHeadway]

I cannot remember which city, might be Oslo, but there are a few stations where the exits would be up to 500m away from each other. Brisbane is not that big that an entrance to a station on Queen St Mall couldn't be on the next block in all directions thus giving an illusion of a short distance to a single station and improving access.

That's pretty much the case already with King George Square busway station! But it has air-con and escalators, making the trek much more bearable. So hardly the worst scenario.

[techblitz]

Yo ozbob..new article on brisbane times

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Expected site of new Brisbane train station revealed

Expected site of new Brisbane train station revealed
November 20, 2013 - 2:08PM
Tony Moore

Transport Minister Scott Emerson has given the closest indication of where Brisbane's newest inner-city train station will be built.

Speaking at a Property Council business breakfast on Wednesday, Mr Emerson said the new underground train station would sit between Alice and Mary streets, under George Street.

The station will be built as part of the Underground Bus and Train (UBAT) project, announced on Sunday.

A 5.4 kilometre long, 15.4 metre wide tunnel will carry buses on the top level and trains on the lower level between Dutton Park to Victoria Park from 2021.

"We looking at a station near where the government precinct is, but in that area between Alice Street and Mary Street," Mr Emerson said.

He said the exact location had not yet been determined, but it was likely to be included in the expressions of interest to redevelop the George Street government precinct.

That will go to the private sector before Christmas.

Similar to the previous government's Cross River Rail project, the Newman government's model also includes stations at Woolloongabba and Roma Street.

The previous government proposed a train-only tunnel and station under Albert Street.

However the Newman government's plan adds bus connections to these train stations, allowing them to link into the existing busways at Woolloongabba, under the Myer Centre, under King George Square and at Roma Street.

Mr Emerson said discussions with the federal government over the project were about "financing a debt guarantee", suggesting a public private partnership was being considered.

Money will come from Brisbane City Council, which recently agreed to "lease" the tolling revenue from its Legacy Way tunnel to Queensland Motorways for about $500 million by 2020.

Mr Emerson stressed the importance of being able to reach an agreement with now-Prime Minister Tony Abbott that an Abbott Government would provide 80 per cent of funds to road projects in Queensland.

He said the Labor Party had been steadily moving towards a road funding model where the federal government provided 50 per cent of project funding.

"What we came to with the federal Coalition was the state and the federal government working together for $10 billion over 10 years for the Bruce Highway and the Gateway North upgrade in a an 80:20 split," he said.

"Now if it had been a 50:50 split, instead of us paying $2 billion we would be paying $5 billion.

"So $3 billion would have been coming out of state money – that wouldn't have previously have been going there – it would have been going to the state's roads.

"So you understand how important that was to get that locked in."

In a wide-ranging speech Mr Emerson also said Brisbane newest rail line - the link from Darra to Springfield - would open on December 1.

He also said the price for the Toowoomba Second Range Crossing had firmed at between $1.6 billion and $1.7 billion.

He said the Queensland Government had "locked in" 20 per cent of the cost in the state budget and the Abbott government had already expressed interest in the project.

"They have committed $700 million already," he said.

"We are just waiting for the federal government to put more money onto the table."

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/expected-site-of-new-brisbane-train-station-revealed-20131120-2xuza.html

[minbrisbane]

The actual location of station entrances may make quite a difference to coverage patterns. More information is required from TMR.

It woudn't change that much though...George St will slide north or south which in the end only really means a bit less of QUT gets covered, and the edge of the Queen St Mall would fall under the 400m radius.

I cannot remember which city, might be Oslo, but there are a few stations where the exits would be up to 500m away from each other. Brisbane is not thbig that an entrance to a station on Queen St Mall couldn't be on the next block in all directions thus giving an illusion of a short distance to a single station and improving access.

HK is much the same, Quarry Bay station has a lengthy underground tunnel to get to exit C. Probably not quite 500m, but East TST + TST are like that, maybe even over 1km, all underground and a/c. 

It's a good idea in my mind, plonk a series of tunnels lined with retail and you'll go some of the way to paying for the construction of these exit tunnels.

[Stillwater]

If Mr Emerson wants the feds to provide a 'debt guarantee' he should be prepared to undertake a business case study for UBAT.  That may affect the timing of the project.  Feds are unlikely to adopt a 'we will trust ya, mate - if it goes belly-up, she's sweet' attitude to coughing up any shortfall.  The feds would want to assess their likely exposure and risk.

[techblitz]

If Mr Emerson wants the feds to provide a 'debt guarantee' he should be prepared to undertake a business case study for UBAT.  That may affect the timing of the project.  Feds are unlikely to adopt a 'we will trust ya, mate - if it goes belly-up, she's sweet' attitude to coughing up any shortfall.  The feds would want to assess their likely exposure and risk.

First up....lock in another major supermarket chain!

[Derwan]

Haven't been around for a few days.  Just saw this on the updated UBAT page on the TMR website:

Station designs incorporate 2 rail platforms, catering to 6- and, in the future, 7-car trains...

7-car trains?  Seriously?  The LNP is still on about 7-car trains?      

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/U/Underground-Bus-and-Train/Project-design-Underground-Bus-and-Train.aspx

[#Metro]

7 car trains are stupid. We are being drip-fed information. How the will they get a 7 car train? Tack on a trailer unit to BUM trains? DUMB!!

Where are the academics? They're supposed to be the knowledgeable elite and they are all MIA.

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Brisbane Underground to replace Adelaide Street bus tunnel

Brisbane Underground to replace Adelaide Street bus tunnel
November 21, 2013 - 12:02AM
Tony Moore and Kim Stephens

A plan to build a bus-only tunnel under Adelaide Street in order to remove city buses from the CBD will no longer go ahead, the state transport minister says.

However the benefits of the Brisbane City Council project – shifting 200 buses a day underground – will be delivered by the state government's 5.2 kilometre Underground Bus and Train project (UBAT), which was announced on Sunday.

Brisbane's lord mayor Graham Quirk said Brisbane's ratepayers would contribute to the state government project, dubbed Brisbane Underground, but said it was too early to predict a figure.

"I will not be naming a figure today because it is too early to do so. But, yes we will make a contribution, it is the right thing to do so," he said.

Meanwhile Mr Emerson predicted the tunnel would offer considerable time savings for bus commuters.

"We get 200 buses off our CBD roads, 100 buses in peak hour off the bridges," Mr Emerson said.

"A saving of 14 minutes from Beenleigh [into the city]," he said.

"From UQ, from 18 minutes to get to the city, down to eight minutes."

The council was previously considering building a new bus-only bridge from South Bank to Adelaide Street at a ballpark cost of $2.8 billion, because buses are mounting up on the Victoria and Captain Cook bridges.

Mr Emerson said inner-city Brisbane faces two emerging problems, which he said would be tackled by the Brisbane Underground.

The first - identified publicly since 2005 - was the need to provide an extra rail crossing, other than the Merivale Bridge at South Brisbane, to get trains from Brisbane's southside to the northside.

The second problem is buses mounting up on Victoria Bridge – something identified by Fairfax Media in November 2011  – and bus congestion in Adelaide Street, he said.

Mr Emerson said the Newman government's new $5 billion project would provide the benefits of a scaled back Cross River Rail ($5.2 billion) and BCC's underground bus project ($2.8 billion) more efficiently.

"So the two projects together cost around $8 billion. This solution will cost $5 billion. That is $3 billion less," he said.

Mr Emerson said the benefits would be realised when the project was up and running in 2021.

Work on the Brisbane's Underground is scheduled to begin in 2015 and be completed in 2020, with the project to be "operational by 2021".

Mr Emerson said he understood why people were cynical about Brisbane's newest underground rail and bus project.

"Governments always put up projects with a sexy title - not quite as sexy at UBAT - but always at the top there there is a little asterick, and you have to go down to the bottom of the page and it says it is subject to this and this and this.

"Have a look at this. There is no asterick. This will happen."

Cr Quirk said any contribution to the Brisbane Underground would not compromise the city's credit rating.

"Whatever the contribution of this council will be in the future, it is one that will be affordable," he said.

"I have always said we will not be putting this administration at risk."

The council this year leased off the tolling rights to its Legacy Way tunnel to Queensland Motorways, meaning it would receive about $500 million from Queensland Motorways by 2020.

A funding model will be provided by Treasurer Tim Nicholls in 2014.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/brisbane-underground-to-replace-adelaide-street-bus-tunnel-20131120-2xvrr.html

[SurfRail]

The reference to 7 car trains I think may be a reference to trains with 7 shorter cars with more doors but roughly the same length overall.

[paulg]

Hi all,
Here is an exchange I had with the UBAT team on Facebook.

> paulg:
> Could you please clarify whether the new line includes an interchange at Park Road station? This is important to allow passengers on Gold Coast trains to transfer to UQ bus services and to
> Cleveland Line trains.

> Underground Bus and Train Project - Brisbane:
> Hi Paul,
> Sorry for the delay in our response, we do appreciate your comments.
> At this stage, the proposed stations will be at Wooloongabba, Roma Street and George Street. That being said, starting next year the Underground Bus and Train project will undertake a
> number of a key activities including developing a reference design, preparing an environmental impact statement, and consulting with key stakeholders and the community.
> Community consultation will play a key role in the developing both the reference design and the environmental impact statement. We'll advertise consultation events and opportunities on both
> the project's website at www.tmr.qld.gov.au/ubat and also here on the Facebook page. If you would also like to be added to our email list, please send your details to ubat@tmr.qld.gov.au and
> we'll make sure you're kept informed regarding feedback opportunities in the future.

Not that encouraging. The Park Road interchange is especially important for Gold Coast Line passengers trying to get to South Bank and South Brisbane (as well as UQ/Cleveland Line/PA). Hopefully sanity will prevail when the Reference Design is developed. I encourage all RBOTers to submit similar feedback through their Facebook or Twitter channels.
https://www.facebook.com/UBATBrisbane
https://twitter.com/ubatbrisbane

Cheers, Paul