BaT - Bus and Train project (was UBAT, was no CRR)

[Stillwater]

The $5 billion cost of the Brisbane Underground is an initial estimate and has been arrived at without first conducting a full business case analysis.  Remember how CRR jumped in price from the initial estimate to the fully-costed business case model?  The same will occur here.  So, government chest-beating about cost savings is a bit premature.

What this project has over CRR is greater potential to wring money from the private sector, either as a investor partner earning money over time or 'direct opportunists' (such as new Casino) who would see the benefit in having a bus/rail interchange right outside.

It would be helpful to get some indication of the network-wide efficiency dividends for this project, the implications of an Exhibition station and tie-ins to northside rail services.

What does it mean that there will be a 'new station beside Roma Street'?  Does that mean the Roma Street Parklands go, or are they talking about a Roma Street underground extension?

More information please.

The government would also appear to be having an eye to the Commonwealth Games on the Gold Coast and the need to have capacity to run trains back and forth.  Once again, Gold Coast gets the dollars as they are levered from the back of the government sofa, Sunshine Coast languishes, a la Sunshine Coast Stadium versus Carrara Stadium, GC Line versus SC Line etc.

PS: lol @ 'You-Bat'  (UBAT)

[STB]

Video Flythrough:

[STB]

Yep, Park Road station missing from the project has me very highly concerned.  I hope there is some sort of provision that once community feedback comes through, they can allocate some money towards building two more underground platforms for Park Road.

Also I wonder how this works around Mayne and the track layout there?

[James]

There is no mention of Park Road station at all in the proposed stations. This worries me greatly. Yes, there's the 29 at the Gabba but is it really wise to be shovelling pax onto a route which is for capacity management between the PA/Park Road an UQ? Dutton Park station should have been removed years ago - its in the catchment area of Park Road station ffs! It serves no use - if I lived near the station, outside peak (thanks to appalling Beenleigh Line frequency), I'd simply walk to Park Road or use the 196 BUZ.

What I like about this plan:
- The tunnel 'dives' a lot later, and means that there is no need to run via South Brisbane trains from Yeerongpilly - a big plus IMO.
- Significant increase in capacity (rail and bus)
- George Street station
- Cheaper

What I don't like about this plan:
- Bus conga party now occurs in a tunnel
- The diversion for the buses to enter the new tunnel around the PAH looks a bit stupid IMO - I think it would have been better to have an on-ramp/off-ramp kind of thing around where the Clem7 entrance is on the busway, because under the current plan, the Buranda Junction is going to get even worse (and probably become a congestion hotspot)
- What the hell are they going to use the bus tunnel for outside of peak?
- Prior remarks with relation to Park Road
- Lack of Albert Street station (i.e. serving Eagle Street/Riverside precinct) will still result in an excessive amount of P-rockets in that area, I forsee

I'd be greatly satisfied if the bus tunnel could simply be ripped out of the plan, but of course, political interests mean that won't happen. I really hope they also consider a station in Spring Hill. For a place so close to the CBD, it a bit of a PT black hole. Short term I don't think it'd hurt to run the Spring Hill Loop half-hourly at night weekdays and during the weekends, but long term I think it'd be a good idea to put a station there. Would also solve the problem of BGS kids needing a whole fleet of buses to take them home. The 411 which starts up at BGS/BGGS is always 15 minutes late because of all the school kids, and I'm sure this issue is a very prominent one for other routes too.

[STB]

Just as a side note, I wouldn't mind seeing Park Road/Boggo Road station renamed as 'Dutton Park' station, after this is built.

[Gazza]

^Hah, certainly puts the debate to bed as to what that station should be called STB

Bus conga party now occurs in a tunnel

Meh, just make one massive underground busway platform the length of the CBD.

Also, agree with earlier comments that the tunnel should be design for conversion to heavy rail on the upper deck in the future....It's certainly got the clearances to do so, and it seems like a super duper cheap way of future proofing then network.

Agree that it's a dick move to skip having a station at Boggo Rd...Guess people better get used to backtracking on the 29.

As for the allignment through the city...why aren't they just going dead straight off George st up to the surface tracks, which avoids the length of tunnel needed, and puts it closer to the busway.

[Gazza]

The diversion for the buses to enter the new tunnel around the PAH looks a bit stupid IMO - I think it would have been better to have an on-ramp/off-ramp kind of thing around where the Clem7 entrance is on the busway, because under the current plan, the Buranda Junction is going to get even worse (and probably become a congestion hotspot)

And doing this could actually allow a Boggo Rd station to be incorporated cheaply.

Basically, you'd continue the full 15m bore start to finish, but at Boggo Rd it would only contain rail tracks, but one would be on the upper deck, and one would be lower.
The spare space inside, to the side, would be used to fit rail platforms, much like Barcelona L12:


After Boggo Rd the track on the upper deck transitions donwards to to the lower deck, and at this point the busway merges in above.

[pandmaster]

Why do we need a bus tunnel when the original bus review would have freed up the Victoria Bridge and Cultural Centre station? This largely parallels the existing busway with an expres lane. IMHO this will just foster the duplicitous separate busway and train networks.

I am somewhat biased as a UQ student but Park Road must be served. It is too busy a station to ignore.

[Cam]

15 minute time saving to southern suburbs needs to be clarified. Will all Beenleigh Line services use UBAT or just express services from Beenleigh with Kuraby/Coopers Plains starters running all stations via South Brisbane? Where would you change trains from a Cleveland Line service if you want to go to George St?

[Gazza]

Where would you change trains from a Cleveland Line service if you want to go to George St?

Buranda.

[BrizCommuter]

The BrizCommuter word on Brisbane Underground / UBAT.
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/11/brisbane-underground-more-information.html

Includes a few notes on Park Road, and Legacy Way non-connections.

[James]

Why do we need a bus tunnel when the original bus review would have freed up the Victoria Bridge and Cultural Centre station? This largely parallels the existing busway with an express lane. IMHO this will just foster the duplicitous separate busway and train networks.

I am somewhat biased as a UQ student but Park Road must be served. It is too busy a station to ignore.

Because BCC wishes to stick with its hi-waste bus network with P-rockets being fired everywhere in the southern suburbs, engulfing the Beenleigh (and to a lesser extent, Cleveland) lines and limiting its patronage.

I think half of it could be to do with Abbott's refusal to fund urban rail. Abbott never said anything about busways, and I'm sure Newman will twist Abbott's arm suitably to in effect, have the federal government fund a significant portion of the project. Petty polyticks it is, but it will at least get a solution.

[Arnz]

I believe Abbott refused to fund Public Transport in general, not just urban rail.  There were Transitways (IIRC, open to correction) in Sydney that his government cancelled funding for.

[Stillwater]

I believe you are on the money, James.  At the time Mr Emerson was raving on, after the federal election, about writing to the feds for a 'better deal' on CRR, engineer Newman was plotting the Brisbane Underground concept.

Newman realised that the time for banging on about getting money out of a Liberal-National federal government for urban rail had past.  The PM had stated categorically that his government would not fund urban rail.

Solution, step in, sideline an unimaginative Emerson (at least on this issue) and come up with a solution he possibly had rattling around in his head as Lord Mayor -- a bus and rail solution.  It is a clever way to introduce an element (bus tunnel) that will bring the feds back on the hook funding-wise.

Now it is time to let Mr Emerson out of confinement after re-education in the gulag so he again is on the right page and will alter the content of the 'please give us money because Queensland deserves it' letter to focus in on having the feds paying for the bus component.

The 'Gabba railway station could be paid for by developers winning concessions to redevelop land and sky around the station, or by a special rate levy on whatever is built there, new casino pays for the George Street Station.

State could get a good deal PROVIDED cost estimates don't rise.  Mr Emerson has said an LNP Government has found a solution $3 billion cheaper than separate bus/rail solutions, but that is a foolish statement if the next stage of the project (EIS and costings) reveals an inaccurate initial cost estimate.

[Arnz]

Solution, step in, sideline an unimaginative Emerson (at least on this issue) and come up with a solution he possibly had rattling around in his head as Lord Mayor -- a bus and rail solution.  It is a clever way to introduce an element (bus tunnel) that will bring the feds back on the hook funding-wise.

No Chance of fed funding.  As was said, Abbott doesn't fund Public Transport projects.  Only roads (highways) and to a lesser extent freight rail.

[#Metro]

No Chance of fed funding.  As was said, Abbott doesn't fund Public Transport projects.  Only roads (highways) and to a lesser extent freight rail.

Just get an even larger TBM with road on the top, bus on the middle and rail on the bottom. Toll the road, ask feds for funding and pull down the Riverside Expressway. 

[#Metro]

What is this UBAT Business?

It's CAMPBELL'S BUM (Brisbane Underground Metro).

[#Metro]

Cross River Rail TICK
Mass Rail Service Upgrade TICK
BUS REVIEW CROSS


Two out of three, still good!!
Very happy with the developments in the last two weeks! Looking forward to the cost patronage explosion

[STB]

Hey LD, how come you didn't add the lack of underground platforms at Park Road as a negative?

[Golliwog]

I'm hoping that the next phase will bring back the Park Rd station. Provided the tunnel surfaces early enough you cna do whatever you want to the Exhibition station later, but not building this important interchange point is BS. If you're only saving $200M (which is chump change for government), getting rid of the interchange at Park Rd and the only other benefit you're boasting about is saving 4 minutes for buses from the north (which seems to be by running fewer buses via QUT KG and instead pumping them through this tunnel which has a slightly shorter route) then you're saving is a load of crap.

The benefits for buses from the south could have been part provided by properly reviewing the busway routes to give more trunk routes and fewer half full (or less) random little feeder routes fomr various suburbs, with the other part by playing around with the Melbourne St portal to remove some of the conflicting moves, and bus lanes on the CCB.

Equal important to discuss here is what stopping patterns you're proposing to run. Which trains are going via the tunnel and what's staying above?

[#Metro]

I wasn't able to gather all the details - does anyone have an official primary report? (i.e. not just newspaper secondhand info).


The second issue - this looks somewhat odd if Park Road is not included. Is this so BT can continue to run buses 130, 140, 150 all the way into the CBD despite the buses travelling directly above the train line that will have HUGE capacity to take all the passengers from the bus services? Perhaps these services should now be terminated at Griffith University and pax for the CBD TRANSFER at Altandi? The "there's no room on trains" excuse won't exist with the BUM.

[STB]

@LD - yes, I posted it earlier.  A flythrough video has also been uploaded.

The project is now on the TMR website:

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/U/Underground-Bus-and-Train.aspx

[James]

I love your alternative name for the UBAT, Lapdog!

No Chance of fed funding.  As was said, Abbott doesn't fund Public Transport projects.  Only roads (highways) and to a lesser extent freight rail.

Abbott only said he would not fund urban rail. He never said anything about busways - and this is where the government may be able to convince Abbott to take a look at the BUM. If feds still won't fund it, I would support the removal of the bus tunnel. There is no need for it, and due to the poor Northern Busway connection, it will only be useful southbound, and most likely only in peak hour.

The second issue - this looks somewhat odd if Park Road is not included. Is this so BT can continue to run buses 130, 140, 150 all the way into the CBD despite the buses travelling directly above the train line that will have HUGE capacity to take all the passengers from the bus services? Perhaps these services should now be terminated at Griffith University and pax for the CBD TRANSFER at Altandi? The "there's no room on trains" excuse won't exist with the BUM.

Altandi has lower frequency than the 130/140 at times during weekdays, and a proper interchange does not exist at Altandi at this point. Build a 4th track Salisbury - Kuraby (for 15 min frequency for both GC and BL lines) and a proper bus-rail interchange at Altandi and there is a very, very strong case for this.

[#Metro]

Hmm. Thanks for the video STB. Still not much to go by. I am not exactly happy about the BUM alignment re:buses. It is awkward (typical, I reckon BT has something to do with this). Buses will file off the busway, do this awkward hook manouvre and then funnel under park road (for what, 4 min time saving?). There does not appear to be a station at Park Road. That's not good at all.

Where are these buses going to go? It's like the bus tunnel to nowhere. Chermside?

A better plan would be to sink the busway into the BUM just before Wooloongabba. Buses would continue to a point just before Wooloongabba before entering the BUM. A combined station would exist at Wooloongabba.

Where are the bus passengers going to get off in the CBD? George Street is a bit far and the next station is Roma Street! People want to get off at Adelaide St and Queen St Mall!

There is no need for buses to continue from the CBD up the BUM with trains past Roma Street. I don't like that idea at all. It looks horrible. The buses should be exiting into the CBD streets or heading in a tunnel to Fortitude Valley. Again, this has BT's fingerprints all over it - having the buses pop up in QSBS or perhaps KGS would probably flood these stations with 100s of buses and that's probably the reason why buses are in the tunnel with trains - you would have simply shift the problems at Cultural Centre to KGS/QSBS which would be an utter catastrophe. Their solution to this is to make 100s of rocket buses flood RBWH instead.

Has the penny dropped yet BCC? Running every bus to the CBD is going to be hugely expensive and running them on the same alignment as trains past Adelaide street has no operational basis or utility. The sole exception to this would be if the bus section of the tunnel popped up under Roma Street to join the INB there.

[STB]

Oh geez, up the BUM, in the BUM, through the BUM.  As classic as the 'G-Spot'.    Would make for an interesting media release title  .

[#Metro]

I can just see the headlines now STB:

Lord Mayor needs to fix up the BUM

Recommendations for BUM surgery:

1. Buses must not enter the BUM until Wooloongabba, where a combined bus/rail station would exist. This means that the SEB needs to be sunk at this point. This may be somewhat tricky as there is a large sewer at this position (yes, just my luck eh?)

2. Consider another station within the CBD, potentially under the Roma Street Courts site. Roma St Courts are being demolished and the land could have development over the top of it. This will give direct access to Queen St and Adelaide St. George Street is too far away and somebody in the ivory tower at 1 William St needs to think of the needs of the rest of us commoners.

3. Station needs to be put out at Park Road. UQ is the second largest destination after the Brisbane CBD. Don't stuff it up!!

4. Get buses to exit at Roma Street if you have to into the INB if possible. This way buses can at least get to QUT, RCH etc.
It is preferable that NO connection to Roma St exist and that buses simply continue into a tunnel underneath or exiting on to Adelaide St to Fortitude Valley.

[Arnz]

I love your alternative name for the UBAT, Lapdog!

No Chance of fed funding.  As was said, Abbott doesn't fund Public Transport projects.  Only roads (highways) and to a lesser extent freight rail.

Abbott only said he would not fund urban rail. He never said anything about busways - and this is where the government may be able to convince Abbott to take a look at the BUM. If feds still won't fund it, I would support the removal of the bus tunnel. There is no need for it, and due to the poor Northern Busway connection, it will only be useful southbound, and most likely only in peak hour.

I do recall in his book and Abbott saying it himself that he won't fund Public Transport projects in general, and that he believes that the cars and highways are the way to go. 

Thus next to no chance of this bus/rail tunnel getting funding whilst Abbott keeps his stance of not funding Public Transport projects in general.  The only way this would get federal funding if there's a "highway" on top of the bus and train tunnel, as LapDog said. 

[STB]

I can just see the headlines now STB:

Lord Mayor needs to fix up the BUM

Or for opening day Get ready for your first trip through the BUM

Oh sorry, I'm having too much fun now! 

[#Metro]

Bus Tunnel a BUM idea 


Look, I read today that Annastacia doesn't like it. She think's Campbell's BUM is too big

But Opposition leader Annastasia Palaszczuk said the scale of the new 15 metre wide, double decker tunnel could cause cost blowouts.

"I'm very concerned that a bigger tunnel will cost more money, and Campbell Newman and the Treasurer [Tim Nicholls] have not said where the money is coming from," she said.


Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/mixed-reaction-to-brisbane-underground-plan-20131117-2xotu.html#ixzz2kswn27J8

[James]

I do recall in his book and Abbott saying it himself that he won't fund Public Transport projects in general, and that he believes that the cars and highways are the way to go. 

Thus next to no chance of this bus/rail tunnel getting funding whilst Abbott keeps his stance of not funding Public Transport projects in general.  The only way this would get federal funding if there's a "highway" on top of the bus and train tunnel, as LapDog said. 

If it is in his book, I stand corrected. Obviously Abbott's head is very far up his BUM...

With regards to the buses, they should come up somewhere in Adelaide Street, and preferably not in the BUM of the City. If the Lord Mayor thinks where the buses exit right now is a good plan, it is quite obvious he is speaking through his BUM. Finally, unless this tunnel is combined with high frequency services for all lines, it is a BUM deal for Brisbane.

[STB]

I do recall in his book and Abbott saying it himself that he won't fund Public Transport projects in general, and that he believes that the cars and highways are the way to go. 

Thus next to no chance of this bus/rail tunnel getting funding whilst Abbott keeps his stance of not funding Public Transport projects in general.  The only way this would get federal funding if there's a "highway" on top of the bus and train tunnel, as LapDog said. 

If it is in his book, I stand corrected. Obviously Abbott's head is very far up his BUM...

With regards to the buses, they should come up somewhere in Adelaide Street, and preferably not in the BUM of the City. If the Lord Mayor thinks where the buses exit right now is a good plan, it is quite obvious he is speaking through his BUM. Finally, unless this tunnel is combined with high frequency services for all lines, it is a BUM deal for Brisbane.

And what will happen when the buses spill out of the BUM? 

[ozbob]

[ozbob]

And I rode the holy '524' bus today...  ommmmmm

We adore our sometimes one hour bus  .. cause we do! 

Stop whining team, get on board the 524! 

[beauyboy]

There is no detail for any of what they claim. I went straight to the website for atleast some details and there is nothing but a Fly through.
That is simply not good enough. Until there is detail of some kind, it is just a thought bubble to me! Nothing More nothing less!
Donald

[Derwan]

4. Get buses to exit at Roma Street if you have to into the INB if possible. This way buses can at least get to QUT, RCH etc.
It is preferable that NO connection to Roma St exist and that buses simply continue into a tunnel underneath or exiting on to Adelaide St to Fortitude Valley.

But wouldn't it be preferable to run longer haul buses directly into the city and have shorter haul buses servicing QUT, etc?  Those coming from the south through the UBAT would simply change at Roma St..... so yes we DO need the connection there. 

[James]

But wouldn't it be preferable to run longer haul buses directly into the city and have shorter haul buses servicing QUT, etc?  Those coming from the south through the UBAT would simply change at Roma St..... so yes we DO need the connection there. 

You might as well have shorter-haul pax filling up the longer-haul routes if there is space available on those longer-haul routes. The INB is not at capacity with bus conga lines either. If INB is anywhere near capacity (and no, this does not simply refer to a lack of 66s being run), start feeding buses to trains up there, simple.

I would rather see BUM (UBAT isn't as catchy or funny as BUM) connect to a North-West busway (or something of that order), then you almost (somewhat) have the ability to operate the busway as two separate lines - Eastern busway to NW Busway, and North busway to SE Busway.

(Note: The North-West busway is my conceptual name to refer to a bus transit line which would proceed to the west of Brisbane. Whether this is to the Centenary suburbs via the M5, Waterworks Road via T3 lanes or something else, I don't know what - and no, I do not support the bus part of Brisbane's BUM, I just think if it is to be built it should be made worthwhile).

[Gazza]

I don't really have a problem with the bus component so long as it  has provision for heavy rail to be added to the top deck in the future.

In 20 years time, kick the buses out and send another line through it as needed.

[ozbob]

I don't really have a problem with the bus component so long as it  has provision for heavy rail to be added to the top deck in the future.

In 20 years time, kick the buses out and send another line through it as needed.

[aldonius]

I don't really have a problem with the bus component so long as it  has provision for heavy rail to be added to the top deck in the future.

In 20 years time, kick the buses out and send another line through it as needed.

Or rather, the SEB to light Metro conversion.

[#Metro]

This issue is with the bus component. The buses need to run on the INB not in a tunnel underneath Spring Hill. Trains can do this because trains are regional and can run from one part of SEQ to another, whereas buses are citywide and die as soon as they cross the BCC boundary.

The second issue is hi-waste and personal home rockets. There are so many of them shooting into the BUM when passenger numbers increase BT will have to buy more buses and have more drivers during peak hour and because the loadings are all uneven (due to skipping stops, different origins etc) lots of air will go up the BUM which is more inefficient than say a rail system stopping at every station where air would be expelled from the BUM in the act of interchanging from feeder services rather than impelled into it. I reason that this is one of the reasons why BT has had to make lots of bus purchases which has led to the cost explosion...peak load.

Yes you could use ultra-large bogota style buses but the issue with that is (a) you'd need to interchange anyway and (b) it's not automatic so you have to hire people and pay then $30+ per hour(c) the lifecycle of a bus is shorter than a train so you will end up paying more over time.