BaT - Bus and Train project (was UBAT, was no CRR)

[ozbob]

Patronage has flattened mainly due to the deliberate fare path strategy.  It won't remain there for much longer, there are already very serious issues with road congestion.  They tried to buy a few more years with high cost fares but it is all starting to come down around their ears.

It is an absurd proposition RTT to not proceed with a significant increase in cross river capacity both rail and bus.  Anti-public transport views are becoming somewhat tedious to me and many others.  There is a very significant pent up latent demand that is going to explode in the near future.

Now is the time to move forward.  Newman et al. do recognise that.  Price control can only work for a limited time.  The revolution is about to explode.

By the way the patronage figures are not correct.  There was an over estimation with the earlier figures due to the high volumes of paper tickets.  Go card has enabled more accurate data collection of late.  Patronage has flat-lined though, and that was part of the flawed fare path strategy.  The government was happy to delay infrastructure and service expenditure by manipulation of the fares, problem is now they are going to be caught short and belted unless they start to act in the community's best interests.

[Set in train]

Agree with Ozbob, fare path strategy is a failure. To actually jack up fares to discourage patronage and therefore investment is a most absurd idea. You'd fail with that idea even on Sim City!

Build, build, build more public transport infrastructure.

[Stillwater]

Who is up for doing our cars up to look like a railway car, then drive in convoy across the Victoria Bridge to highlight lack of investment in PT and rail capacity?  Bound to get some media attention.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Cross River Rail replacement to be known by Christmas

The state government is set to announce details of a new underground rail and bus project to replace the abandoned Cross River Rail proposal before Christmas.

The government's new plan is to combine an underground rail tunnel under the George Street Parliamentary Precinct with Brisbane City Council's desire to remove buses from the city's surface roads.

The proposal replaces the former state and federal Labor governments' plans for a $4.45 billion underground rail link, dubbed Cross River Rail, which would have run trains underground from Woolloongabba to the Exhibition station, via an underground Albert Street rail station.

Labor's idea was scrapped by Premier Campbell Newman in September.

A spokesman for Transport Minister Scott Emerson said the new design included solutions to bus congestion identified by the council.

In December 2011, Lord Mayor Graham Quirk suggested a new bus-only bridge, which could go into an underground tunnel under Adelaide Street.

Mr Emerson's spokesman said the state government and council were working on a solution which would combine buses and rail, with the aim for the proposal to be announced by Christmas.

He said the government decided the Cross River Rail project was too expensive and did not solve increasing bus congestion on the city streets and bridges.

Planners are starting from scratch.

"It is nothing like Cross River Rail," the spokesman said.

"It's quite different."

However, the LNP's project will also include a tunnel under the river, running from Brisbane's southside and underneath George Street.

"They are looking at another crossing, and at this stage, it looks like the preferred (choice) is to go under the river," the spokesman said ...

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/cross-river-rail-replacement-to-be-known-by-christmas-20131022-2vz89.html

[ozbob]

There was mention of the ' Brisbane Underground ' the new name for a combined bus/rail tunnel, at yesterday's Queensland Transport Infrastructure Summit.  Nothing new other that the proposal is proceeding as confirmed in this article.

[#Metro]

Funny how BCC is only too happy to work together when it involves bus. Their ownership of BT is definitely skewing their field of vision. There has been no modal choice study to my knowledge nor public consultation. I like the idea of a subway because it would prevent large fleets of buses ever needing to enter the CBD and would allow for turnbacks in the suburbs to supply higher frequency for cheaper cost.

I travelled to the CBD yesterday counter peak, lots of rockets and expresses half full.

[newbris]

From the article above:

"However, the LNP's project will also include a tunnel under the river, running from Brisbane's southside and underneath George Street.
"They are looking at another crossing, and at this stage, it looks like the preferred (choice) is to go under the river," the spokesman said."

Didn't realise they had changed back to preferring a tunnel...I thought the bridge was where a lot of the cost savings were projected.

[newbris]

Have you guys seen this render from the proposed 300 George development with an Adelaide St bus tunnel portal ?



Source: http://brisbanedevelopment.com

[ozbob]

Thanks Newbris, interesting ..

[ http://brisbanedevelopment.com/300-george-street/ ]

Details of the 'Brisbane Underground' are planned to be made available before the end for the year.  The planned concept of the Adelaide St bus tunnel may change. 

[#Metro]

Sigh. I think the Law Courts should be considered for potential CRR station exit.

I am not exactly thrilled at the bus tunnel in the middle of the street either - not because I think it will not have benefits - but because it will release more capacity to continue with the wasteful everywhere to the CBD network design and continue to lock in the dominance of BCC/BT. It is also a bit ugly as well.

Will private operators be allowed into this tunnel or will they be relegated to anti-competitive locations elsewhere in the CBD?. At least with CRR there will be some scope to terminate some buses at Wooloongabba.

[James]

My thoughts on this proposed bus tunnel down Adelaide Street:

Here's a revolutionary idea BCC, instead of throwing your toys out of the pram like a bunch of five year olds and demanding that others fix a problem of your own creation, you can reform the bus network, feed buses to railway stations and stop sending huge amounts of air parcel services down Adelaide Street! Seriously, just stand there in PM peak and see how many air parcel services there are. I can remove 120 buses from Adelaide Street per day, or 15 bph in peak, just by implementing my personal bus review - and that only covers a small section of Brisbane. (All up, around 30bph would be removed from the CBD).

If BCC wants to hold daily bus waste parades in a tunnel instead of down Adelaide Street like they do currently, BCC should be forced to pay.

[Stillwater]

Major development for old District Court / Supreme Court site will generate lots of public transport usage: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/da-lodged-for-brisbanes-second-tallest-building-20131104-2wx46.html

[ozbob]

Details of the ' Brisbane Underground ' not far away is my best guess ...

[nathandavid88]

From the DA plans I've read for this development, the tunnel illustrated was included as a result of pre-lodgement discussions with Council where they talked about the possibility of the (original) Adelaide Street bus tunnel going ahead and told the developers to factor in a potential street widening into their plans. These discussions obviously pre-dated the Brisbane Underground, so what we see here isn't necessarily what will eventuate.

[ozbob]

Details of the ' Brisbane Underground ' not far away is my best guess ...

Next week is the last Parliament for the year.  Wonder if there will be any ' announcements ' on this ..

[aldonius]

The article says something about 'no Dutton Park station' which is both confusing and worrying.

[STB]

I assume this will include additional platforms under Park Road station?

I'm not too concerned if Dutton Park station is removed honestly, the PA Hospital is well served by the busway station and Ipswich Rd services, and the catchment has access to buses nearby, plus Park Road isn't really that far from Dutton Park station anyway.

Guess we'll know more sometime on Sunday with the release of the in depth details.

[aldonius]

If they remove Dutton Park station proper that's fine as you say. Article wording:

dumping plans for a Dutton Park ­station, which required 108 resumptions, including 60 properties that have already been bought.

I'm worried that somehow the Park Rd station has been taken out.

[STB]

If they remove Dutton Park station proper that's fine as you say. Article wording:

dumping plans for a Dutton Park ­station, which required 108 resumptions, including 60 properties that have already been bought.

I'm worried that somehow the Park Rd station has been taken out.

Hmm, I've taken a look at the proposed route map, and you are right, Park Road station isn't in the plans, at least for additional platforms.  That does have me a bit concerned, and I hope that's just an oversight that they are prepared to put in once the public gets a handle of what the plans are.  If not, we have a bit of a fight on our hands, as some underground platforms at Park Road station at the very least should be a simple obvious need.

I'm also interested in how the track will work at either end of the underground line.  I'm thinking that they will need at least 4 tracks along the exhibition loop line between the tunnel entrance and near Bowen Hills station.  It'll be interesting to see what they have proposed in terms of redesigning the track layout near Bowen Hills station.

I also wonder if there is room in the plans to have an underground Spring Hill station, or at least redeveloping Exhibition station and the area surrounding the RNA and turning that into a full time station.

Dutton Park - eh, I've got no problems with them closing that station for reasons I've already posted.

[#Metro]

GOOD

• Finally a tunnel that is useful and not some populist nonsense
• Faster trains
• Faster buses
• Too many stations on Beenleigh line - removing Dutton Park will speed things up

BAD

• No public consultation on new plans
• Bus tunnel locks in Brisbane Transport direct service network, this is going to be expensive to operate
• No modal choice or comparison done - bus is just assumed to be the best solution

[ozbob]

Details of the ' Brisbane Underground ' not far away is my best guess ...

Next week is the last Parliament for the year.  Wonder if there will be any ' announcements ' on this ..

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/lnp-government-puts-5b-seal-on-plan-to-revolutionise-inner-city-public-transport/story-fnihsrf2-1226761712837

Seems logical and efficient use of the cost of a TBM and boring, although I'd prefer the trains to come out at Springhill and enable Ekka station to be brought to life 365 days a year which has a large catchment.

Hallelujah!   We are saved said the penguins!!   

Sunday Mail --> LNP Government puts $5b seal on plan to revolutionise inner city public transport

IT'S the $5 billion tunnel poised to revolutionise public transport travel in inner Brisbane.

The Newman Government will on Sunday unveil plans to begin building the 5.4km joint bus and train tunnel linking Dutton Park to Bowen Hills by 2015.

The so-called Brisbane Underground will include a station at Woolloongabba for sports fans and another along George St to service the new entertainment and casino precinct, as well as the university.

A third station will be built alongside busy Roma Street Station.

The alternative tunnel route into the city will alleviate train congestion on the Merivale Bridge, which is near ­capacity during peak periods, and reduce the number of buses that regularly back up along Victoria Bridge.

Premier Campbell Newman told The Sunday Mail that the dire need for ­another public transport route into the city had suffered because of too much talk and not enough action.

"There's been too much conversation in the past,'' he said. "But we are a government that promised to deliver better planning and infrastructure and that is what we are doing,'' he said.

"We've taken two of Brisbane's major congestion challenges - the Merivale train bridge and the Cultural Centre bus precinct - and come up with an affordable and elegant solution.''

The $5 billion price tag is $3 billion cheaper than the combined cost of Labor's much-hyped Cross River Rail project and the council's ­Suburbs to City bus link ...

[ozbob]

Media release 17th November 2013



SEQ: A combination bus rail solution for inner Brisbane welcome!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has welcomed the announcement of the joint bus and tunnel linking Dutton Park to Bowen Hills (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The Newman Government will today commit to the joint bus and rail tunnel for inner Brisbane (1).  This is exciting and welcome news!"

"RAIL Back On Track has suggested previously that a dual mode tunnel - combined bus and rail, for positioning public transport in Brisbane was a logical and cost effective solution (2)."

"Both the bus system and the rail system need future capacity enhancements."

"As single projects the Adelaide St bus tunnel/bridge and Cross River Rail were simply too expensive.  By considering a plan as to be outlined by the Premier significant cost savings can be achieved while delivering the capacity gains for the network."

"It should be stressed though that the Brisbane Underground project needs to be constructed with a view to expansion in the future.  For example new rail stations should be constructed in a space to allow nine car trains.  The bus tunnel segment be of such size to allow rail or light rail modifications down the track.  Future proofing is essential, there will be only one chance to get it right!"

"This is great news for Queensland!  Well done!!"

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

References:

1. http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/lnp-government-puts-5b-seal-on-plan-to-revolutionise-inner-city-public-transport/story-fnihsrf2-1226761712837

2. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9972.msg131193#msg131193


http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2013/11/16/1226761/786246-7ff9b198-4e4a-11e3-9491-1affab8972a4.jpg

[aldonius]

Having the Park Rd connection is just really common sense from the connectivity perspective.

But underground stations are tricky and expensive buggers to do, especially when you already have stuff on top!

[ozbob]

Fast Facts about the impact of Brisbane Underground:
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/lnp-government-puts-5b-seal-on-plan-to-revolutionise-inner-city-public-transport/story-fnihsrf2-1226761712837

• 80 per cent increase in Gold Coast trains

• 14 minute reduction in travel time by train between Beenleigh and the CBD

• Four minute reduction in bus travel time from Bracken Ridge, Aspley, Lutwyche and Chermside to the CBD

• Double capacity of trains coming from the south and east of the city

• 180 per cent increase in inner city busway capacity

• 200 buses taken off inner city streets

• 100 buses of Captain Cook Bridge in morning peak period.

[STB]

Having the Park Rd connection is just really common sense from the connectivity perspective.

But underground stations are tricky and expensive buggers to do, especially when you already have stuff on top!

The problem is when push comes to shove, something will have to be done about it.  Park Road is a fairly critical station, as it not only provides links between UQ and PA Hospital, but also reduces the need for people to travel into the city in order to access Beenleigh and the Gold Coast, which isn't a good use of resources.

I think public pressure will come onto this eventually if the public find out that there isn't an underground Park Road station to link up with the current Park Road station, and something will have to give one way or another.

[STB]

Fast Facts about the impact of Brisbane Underground:
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/lnp-government-puts-5b-seal-on-plan-to-revolutionise-inner-city-public-transport/story-fnihsrf2-1226761712837

• 80 per cent increase in Gold Coast trains

• 14 minute reduction in travel time by train between Beenleigh and the CBD

• Four minute reduction in bus travel time from Bracken Ridge, Aspley, Lutwyche and Chermside to the CBD

• Double capacity of trains coming from the south and east of the city

• 180 per cent increase in inner city busway capacity

• 200 buses taken off inner city streets

• 100 buses of Captain Cook Bridge in morning peak period.

I'm not quite cheering yet personally, I want to see the detail, including will there be extra tracks built at either end of the tunnels, what is going on about Park Road station, will the busway tunnel be built to allow future conversion to heavy or light rail, and if it can be converted to say heavy rail, can that link into future rail lines or the Cleveland line, and how will this be future proofed.

The good thing is at least it is pretty much guaranteed to being built, barring any unforseen setbacks, which is something to be cheering about.

How does that saying go...the devil will be in the detail.

[ozbob]

[ozbob]

Detail will be forthcoming.  Great news, 'don't knock a gift horse in the mouth' ...

Yee Haa!!

[Old Northern Road]

Do you think they might be getting Dutton Park confused with Yeerongpilly? I'm pretty sure that was where most of the resumptions were meant to be. Not having platforms at Park Road would be incredibly stupid.

I'm not sure how this tunnel is going to save 4min for buses coming from Bracken Ridge, Aspley, Lutwyche and Chermside. I hope this plan doesn't include that stupid bus tunnel from the CBD to the Valley.

[BrizCommuter]

BrizCommuter is eagerly awaiting the detail, before commenting. Good that it may now be really happening, and ingeneous use of a very large TBM (one the largest ever). But not serving Park Road would be a huge mistake!

[Derwan]

I'm not sure how this tunnel is going to save 4min for buses coming from Bracken Ridge, Aspley, Lutwyche and Chermside. I hope this plan doesn't include that stupid bus tunnel from the CBD to the Valley.

I'm guessing that these services will use the tunnel from the north - rather than the current round-trip into Roma St.  We'll have to see where the buses actually enter the tunnel.  I'm eagerly awaiting details.

================

Admin: edited topic name

[ozbob]

Twitter

Scott Emerson ‏@scottemersonmp 35m

Great to announce today the Brisbane Underground bus & train project which will revolutionise public transport. http://t.co/b53CFdgSJ2

[Derwan]

Twitter

Scott Emerson ‏@scottemersonmp 35m

Great to announce today the Brisbane Underground bus & train project which will revolutionise public transport. http://t.co/b53CFdgSJ2

I wish they'd stop announcing that they're going to announce it and just announce it!

[Cam]

How can this project save 14 minutes when it takes 16 minutes from Fairfield to Central in the new timetable? I doubt it will only take 2 minutes from Fairfield to the first CBD station when there is at least one stop in between. I think the saving will be 8 minutes at best and that's to a different CBD location to Central. There will probably be only about a 5 minute saving to Roma Street station.

[ozbob]

I am so excited I think I will go for a ride on the 524 bus today!  After Dec 2 we lose a few Sunday runs ...  can always walk or catch the razzle-dazzle bus .. 

[Cam]

Do you think they might be getting Dutton Park confused with Yeerongpilly?

I agree.

[Golliwog]

The devil is most certainly going to be in the detail. Isn't around $5B what the final estimated cost of CRR was in the first place? So kudos for working in something bus related (though I honestly would have preferred they tried a proper operational solution to that before just saying "f@#k it, that's too hard, we'll just build a new busway to cater for all the buses") but if it's effectively if it's the same price and the rail part is a poorer solution than the previous one, I'll be disappointed.

[HappyTrainGuy]

FFS BRACKEN RIDGE SHOULD NOT HAVE BUSES GOING DIRECT TO THE DAMN CITY! Bracken Ridge busway here we come 

That 4 mins can be removed if they fixed up the current busways on the network. Any the Aspley buses are always going to suffer from traffic from Shand street where it narrows to a single lane all the way to Aspley.

[techblitz]

Twitter

Scott Emerson ‏@scottemersonmp 35m

Great to announce today the Brisbane Underground bus & train project which will revolutionise public transport. http://t.co/b53CFdgSJ2

I wish they'd stop announcing that they're going to announce it and just announce it!

[STB]

The project is now on the TMR website:

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/U/Underground-Bus-and-Train.aspx