BaT - Bus and Train project (was UBAT, was no CRR)

[minbrisbane]

Can they continue to BH and run back around the loop, or v.v?

[BrizCommuter]

...but why terminate the GC train? Why not terminate the CL or BL train instead and move those patrons onto the GC train? On the face of it, I would argue for terminating the Cleveland line, and then (if possible) pairing the Shorncliffe and Doomben lines going via the Ekka so that a service from Shorncliffe to Doomben via Roma Street only passes the inner city stations once. There's probably issues doing this though, seems to always be the case.

Can they continue to BH and run back around the loop, or v.v?

Oh no, not again. 

Please read this blog post from 2010. http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2010/08/loopy.html

[James]

...but why terminate the GC train? Why not terminate the CL or BL train instead and move those patrons onto the GC train? On the face of it, I would argue for terminating the Cleveland line, and then (if possible) pairing the Shorncliffe and Doomben lines going via the Ekka so that a service from Shorncliffe to Doomben via Roma Street only passes the inner city stations once. There's probably issues doing this though, seems to always be the case.

Because the GC train is half full while the Beenleigh train is (theoretically) full. And BL/CL have the increased frequency - chances are by terminating those trains, people will migrate away from them. By terminating ALL ex-Gold Cost trains in an hour window, you stop this crowd bunching. Remember, people don't like having to move their bum from a seat to another seat, just ask the users of BUZ 100.

And SurfRail, my plan accounts for that. We still need to take care of future growth, and terminating Gold Coast trains at South Brisbane is the best way of doing it. By effectively separating the GC line from the rest of Sector 2 (bar the sections where it runs with the BL expresses), GC line frequencies could go up to as high as 6tph without having to find additional paths through the CBD. I'm thinking turn around at South Brisbane, and then make it go out empty via the Up Main, and adding additional stops along the outer section of the Beenleigh Line for GC trains to deal with the bottleneck Kuraby - Beenleigh.

At the present time it's not necessary, but there needs to be a plan to further maximise capacity in the core section, especially given there's the possibility (with Tony Abbott's refusal to fund CRR) that CRR might not be finished until 2025.

[ozbob]

For interest ... 1895, a push to re-open Normanby railway station ...

--> http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3597305

[SurfRail]

Hi,
Problem is once they cross a bridge then what? There is very limited space at Roma Street to store spare sets.

The south Brisbane solution is probably meant for after the bridge reaches 24 trains per hour or what ever the limit is.

You can fit at least 4 x 6 car sets on platforms 2 and 3, and they feed right off the bridge without impacting on sector 1.  XPT will be gone much earlier based on the NSW timetable revision.  Combine this with running more services in the counterpeak direction to the west and via South Bank and you will have more room at Roma Street (shorter dwells seeing you don't have to empty out the train, rest the points etc), meaning the current stabling of sets on platforms 2 and 3 could possibly be done away with and replaced with terminating trains from the south.

24 trains per hour over 2 hours is still not to be sneezed at.  Currently from 6am to 9am we are only doing 40 trains over the Merivale Bridge inbound in that 3 hour period.  I think there is a lot more to be squeezed out of it, and adding more shoulder peak services will spread the loads.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Re airport services. Gold Coast services mean jack. So long as there is a Roma Street-Airport service the contract is filled. Remember the Corinda-Airport services? It's why when there are delays on the Beenleigh/Gold Coast line a empty set rolls out of Mayne for a new airport and Gold Coast service until such a time that the unit it replaced reaches Roma Street or Mayne and can be swapped around.

[Golliwog]

I think any talk of terminating any trains at South Brisbane is pure foam.

The bridge is capable of taking 24 trains per hour with the right stuff.

We should be talking about wrong-roading over the bridge and terminating/originating trains at Roma Street, if anywhere. 

Have a look at the transport plans for the new Perth Stadium for some real, actual discussion of this in practical terms (ie using excess capacity on the outbound Armidale line track to get trains back from the stadium station to Perth and beyond).

As far as all the bad ideas in this thread go (i.e. anything about not building CRR), that's not too bad. One of the few things BCC got right in their 'review' seemed to be supporting the 1099+66 combo route. If you jack up the southbound frequency on that then you cover South Brisbane, South Bank, Park Rd, and provide the connection to UQ (not to mention the 111, 222, and even the Maroon Glider). Only problem them becomes rollingstock utilization as they already have limited rollingstock and you're no limiting the number of southbound moves for empty trains to start new services. I suppose some of the Y'pilly starters could be made by running empty via Sherwood, but theres only so much you can do running the long way around.

That's right, rail feeding bus: BCC's dreams could come true!

[BrizCommuter]

Yeerongpilly service "slots" are likely to become re-used by Gold Coast, Beenleigh, or Kuraby services whenever we eventually see the sector 2 timetables.

[Golliwog]

Yeerongpilly service "slots" are likely to become re-used by Gold Coast, Beenleigh, or Kuraby services whenever we eventually see the sector 2 timetables.

Considering how long it's taken them to approve a new .pdf timetable to reflect the minor changes made on May 6, I'm not holding my breathe on sector 2.

[minbrisbane]

I really don't think there's sufficient space on the north bank for a dive.

[James]

CRR might not be finished until 2025.

Optmisitic!

Nah, GC trains actually make the St Bris solution worse. You then have to deal with get trains to Airport, you also have people cross the station with bags.

The Sth Brisbane solution will probably only affect 2 trains make, much easier to make it a suburban

The transfer at South Brisbane is a cross-platform one with level platforms either side and nothing more. If people complain about that, they're in for a shock when they get to a big airport like Hong Kong or LAX and have to wheel their bags for miles, and most people are not making through trips anyway. There is also (as stated prior) no obligation to provide trains from the Gold Coast to meet Airport trains.

By making it only affect ONE BL and ONE CL, especially given core peak frequency would be every 12 minutes (minimum), you are going to drive away patronage from those services, making them far less useful. If you make it two GC services, if someone is that opposed to interchange, they have to leave at least 15 minutes (possibly up to 30) minutes earlier. Scale wise, it is only 1-2 minutes more on an hour-long commute, compared to someone coming from Dutton Park (for example), for whom it is a 12 minute commute.

And remember, these BL/CL services (as I've designed them) will be FULL. I've once had the chance to ride on a GC service going through the CBD in core peak (it was an SMU, as luck would have it - the 7:20am VLBD service) and there were very few standees - that is, the train was half full. Now, what takes longer - 600 passengers boarding, or 300 passengers boarding?

[SurfRail]

The cost of doing a second Merivale Bridge and the related works doesn't stack up - see ICRCS.  It was estimated to cost around $4bn if I recall - this was in 2006 dollars, and there is VERY little you can take to with a scalpel under that plan.  Even the lobotomised CRR is now over $5bn in current dollars.

[somebody]

We should be talking about wrong-roading over the bridge and terminating/originating trains at Roma Street, if anywhere. 

That would block the counter peak path for more than 8 minutes.  Not at all a fan of this idea.

[SurfRail]

We should be talking about wrong-roading over the bridge and terminating/originating trains at Roma Street, if anywhere. 

That would block the counter peak path for more than 8 minutes.  Not at all a fan of this idea.

I doubt it would be for that long.  South Brisbane to Roma Street should be able to be cleared in 3 minutes.

I think it's a dumb idea too, but not as awful as terminating trains at South Brisbane.

[somebody]

We should be talking about wrong-roading over the bridge and terminating/originating trains at Roma Street, if anywhere. 

That would block the counter peak path for more than 8 minutes.  Not at all a fan of this idea.

I doubt it would be for that long.  South Brisbane to Roma Street should be able to be cleared in 3 minutes.

I think it's a dumb idea too, but not as awful as terminating trains at South Brisbane.

Timetable is 4-5 minutes.

EDIT: And actually, you need to clear South Brisbane #1 too because you must pass this station to use the eastern track over the Merivale Bridge unless I'm mistaken.

[#Metro]

Can Cross River Rail be privatised?

I mean, look at it this way, if we can get private sector funding for 1/3 of the project, why not get 100% funding for it and fund that through availability payments entirely?

[colinw]

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/political-news/missing-link-pm-axes-2b-parramatta-plan-20130528-2n9nr.html

Come on Julia, Wayne & Anthony - offer the money to QLD for CRR. I'd love to see Newman & Emerson try to squirm their way out of THAT offer without looking like complete prats.

[TruemanQLD]

Come on Julia, Wayne & Anthony - offer the money to QLD for CRR. I'd love to see Newman & Emerson try to squirm their way out of THAT offer without looking like complete prats.

This money will already have been allocated elsewhere in the budget. I think it is safe to say that CRR is gone, TA will win the next election and there is no way he will invest it in rail, he has already said that. The LNP has a great deal in front of them at the moment, the best they are going to get and they know it. They need to sign up now and get it locked in, there is no way TA would cancel a project already under construction, especially given he wont get a Senate majority (if he does) until July 2014. Newman has spent billions while Mayor on tunnels that wont be 'helpful' for another 10-15 years, why wont he spend the same on a rail tunnel that will be helpful NOW and wont be the financial failure of the Clem7 and AirportLink?

[colinw]

Yeah, I was just dreaming, but it would have made a delightful "wedge" to clearly illustrate the stark choice that faces us at the next election.

[BrizCommuter]

Could you do a gateway and put a 2nd span over the river and then go underground?

Just asking?

That was investigated by the Inner City Rail Capacity Study and found to be less value for money than the proposed route.

[mufreight]

The cost of doing a second Merivale Bridge and the related works doesn't stack up - see ICRCS.  It was estimated to cost around $4bn if I recall - this was in 2006 dollars, and there is VERY little you can take to with a scalpel under that plan.  Even the lobotomised CRR is now over $5bn in current dollars.

A second river crossing (duplication of the Merivale Street Bridge) does not solve the problem of a lack of capacity through the CBD, Cross River Rail does and provides two additional stations that will provide rail public transport into two areas presently not serviced, Wooloongabba and Gardens Point with the interchanges at Park Road (Boggo Road) and Roma Street with a level of redundency by providing two lines that are seperate from the present four lines through the CBD

[Stillwater]

One of the issues the government has not thought through is that the extra stations in the city courtesy of CRR would have relieved the number of people who would be using Central to get on and off in the city.  At peak periods, the passenger numbers passing through Central's pedestrian councourse and to and from the loos and fast food joints, and changing from one platform to another are pretty high.  OHS would demand some way of adding extra space to the concourse, or removing some of the features there now, such as a restaurant or two.

[Golliwog]

One of the issues the government has not thought through is that the extra stations in the city courtesy of CRR would have relieved the number of people who would be using Central to get on and off in the city.  At peak periods, the passenger numbers passing through Central's pedestrian councourse and to and from the loos and fast food joints, and changing from one platform to another are pretty high.  OHS would demand some way of adding extra space to the concourse, or removing some of the features there now, such as a restaurant or two.

Or perhaps doubling the number of go card fare gates? --> A new and improved Central station

Last updated: 4.25pm Tuesday 4 June 2013

From Tuesday 11 June, you'll start to notice some big changes at Central train station as Queensland Rail's $5 million station redevelopment project gets underway.

Once the redevelopment is finished, the new and improved station will have:

    improved access with eighteen new fare gates (double the number of gates currently at the station), including four new wide-access gates
    better security with upgraded lighting and closed circuit television (CCTV), and new roller shutters to secure the station when it's closed
    a brand new reverse ticket window inside the station.

Central is one of the busiest stations on the network, with more than 80 000 customers travelling through every day. The redevelopment will help customers flow smoothly through the station and maximise the space in the concourse area.
Want to find out more?

Contact Queensland Rail via email or call 3235 1516.

No mention of whether they're going to raise the platforms while they're rearranging the deck chairs though.

(to be fair, it is a good idea, but it sh%ts me that to have this starting in a week, they've clearly been planning it for a while)

[Golliwog]

Response received from QR what the upgrade entails:

Queensland and TransLink are redeveloping the Central station concourse to improve customer flow and cater for growing patronage.

Key features include:

- Doubling the amount of fare gates at the station from 18 to 36
- a new ticket office in the adjacent heritage building
- a new customer service window within Central station
- security improvements including upgraded lighting and closed circuit television above the new fare gates.

The additional fare gates will be installed near the existing ticket office, and at the entrance from Edward Street.

While these works will provide an additional four wide access gates, this project will not involve platform raising.

Kind regards,

[ozbob]

I also think it is time to start thinking about a a combined bus/rail tunnel.   

Serious bus and rail capacity issues through core CBD sections.

I just heard a report on ABC Radio that the Government is looking at reworking CRR to possibly be a rail and bus solution .. 

The earlier stories have had the message changed ..

[dancingmongoose]

And heres a link -> http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-09-09/qld-government-considers-cut-price-cross-river-rail/4946368

[ozbob]

Thanks ..

From the ABC News click here!

Qld Government considers cut-price cross-river rail

Qld Government considers cut-price cross-river rail
By Melinda Howells

Queensland Premier Campbell Newman says his Government is coming up with a cheaper way to get more trains across the Brisbane River.

The Bligh government had planned a tunnel under the river with new stations at a cost of about $8 billion.

Last year, the Newman Government said it could deliver cross-river rail for $4.5 billion with funding from the Commonwealth.

But the new Federal Government will not contribute to the project, so Mr Newman says an alternative plan is being developed.

"We are currently reworking cross-river rail," he said.

"We are turning it into a project that delivers lots more bang for less buck that solves not just the rail issues but hopefully bus issues.

"It's a comprehensive public transport solution for the Brisbane CBD."

State Transport Minister Scott Emerson says the Abbott government will contribute more to roads projects, freeing up funding for rail.

But Opposition Leader Annastacia Palaszczuk says Mr Emerson and the State Government must commit to a timetable.

"Now is the time for Scott Emerson as the Transport Minister to say is he going to support Cross-River Rail, yes or no. How is the state going to fund it?" she said.

[petey3801]

Does anyone else have the feeling that this new working of CRR will be BCC's prized bus tunnel with trains terminating at South Brisbane..?

[ozbob]

Does anyone else have the feeling that this new working of CRR will be BCC's prized bus tunnel with trains terminating at South Brisbane..?

Hope not, we don't have a tram over Victoria bridge any more ... 

[#Metro]

How much more "Cut price" can it be?!?!?

I can understand that they don't want it to be gold plated, but I don't want it to be MOULD plated either!!

Remember cost-benefit is a double edged sword. Politicians like to talk about costs but benefits as measured by the Net Present Value (NPV) and BCR are very important. Cheaper might also mean crapper...

QLD have a long tradition of stuffing infrastructure up and cutting corners which then instils critical problems into the network that make it impossible to (a) have high frequency or (b) predictable, regular timetables.

Does anyone else have the feeling that this new working of CRR will be BCC's prized bus tunnel with trains terminating at South Brisbane..?

I reckon it is some HORRIBLE UGLY surprise like The Fairfield Solution, South Brisbane Terminators, A train on tyres, or, heaven help us all, The Cleveland Solution... The last one is the only one I can think of that they could actually be stupid enough to attempt...

[nathandavid88]

Does anyone else have the feeling that this new working of CRR will be BCC's prized bus tunnel with trains terminating at South Brisbane..?

Surely Newman's saying that "solves not just the rail issues" means that it can't be South Brisbane Terminators – terminating trains there does not solve the issue. As for the Cleveland Solution, I don't think there's room there for trains and buses.

The first wild idea that came to mind for me was that of a bus tunnel built in parallel with the CRR, and sharing that alignment, that could connect Wooloongabba Busway Station with Roma Street Busway Station maybe? Don't even know if its possible, that's just what popped into my head.

Edit: Newman has elaborated more on his CRR plan in a Courier Mail article.

"Cross River Rail is the name that I would give the to the former government's project which was unfunded and totally uneconomic and wasn't feasible," Mr Newman said.

"We are currently reworking Cross River Rail. We are turning it into a project that delivers lots more bang for less buck, that solves not just the rail issues but hopefully bus issues."

Mr Newman described it as a "comprehensive public transport solution for the Brisbane CBD".

"I can tell you we've stripped billions of dollars out of the project cost already," he said.

"We are committed to the project. We have to solve the capacity issues for public transport through the CBD and across the Brisbane River and we are working to do just that."

Mr Newman said the project would have to get going "within the next few years".

The Merivale rail bridge is due to reach capacity in 2016.

"There's a lot of planning going on for the precinct just adjacent to the Parliament, the George and William streets precinct and that will also be part of the planning for this new inner city transport capacity project," he said.

"In about three years we'll be knocking down the current Executive Building and the Public Works building."

Mr Newman said the new plan would likely coincide with that work.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/special-features/campbell-newman-welcomes-tony-abbott-election-victory-as-8216freeing-him-from-shackles8217-of-federal-labor/story-fnho52jo-1226714817922

[petey3801]

Does anyone else have the feeling that this new working of CRR will be BCC's prized bus tunnel with trains terminating at South Brisbane..?

Surely Newman's saying that "solves not just the rail issues" means that it can't be South Brisbane Terminators – terminating trains there does not solve the issue. As for the Cleveland Solution, I don't think there's room there for trains and buses.

The first wild idea that came to mind for me was that of a bus tunnel built in parallel with the CRR, and sharing that alignment, that could connect Wooloongabba Busway Station with Roma Street Busway Station maybe? Don't even know if its possible, that's just what popped into my head.

Oh, but it does solve the issue (in the mind of a politician...). Terminating at South Bris reduces conflicts on the Maryvale Bridge while allowing more trains to come in from the outer areas. It will likely be the bus tunnel and Newman's old idea of more platforms at South Bank and South Brisbane..

[ozbob]

Couriermail ...  --> here!

" Labor's Cross River Rail plan is being scrapped by the Newman "

THE Newman Government has again gone back to the drawing board to come up with a new plan to ease train and bus congestion in Brisbane, effectively killing off the Cross River Rail project.

Premier Campbell Newman said his Government was currently finessing their own project which would solve both bus and train congestion problems.

"Cross River Rail is the name that I would give the to the former government's project which was unfunded and totally uneconomic and wasn't feasible," Mr Newman said.

"We are currently reworking Cross River Rail. We are turning it into a project that delivers lots more bang for less buck, that solves not just the rail issues but hopefully bus issues."

Mr Newman described it as a "comprehensive public transport solution for the Brisbane CBD".

"I can tell you we've stripped billions of dollars out of the project cost already," he said.

"We are committed to the project. We have to solve the capacity issues for public transport through the CBD and across the Brisbane River and we are working to do just that."

Mr Newman said the project would have to get going "within the next few years".

The Merivale rail bridge is due to reach capacity in 2016.

"There's a lot of planning going on for the precinct just adjacent to the Parliament, the George and William streets precinct and that will also be part of the planning for this new inner city transport capacity project," he said.

"In about three years we'll be knocking down the current Executive Building and the Public Works building."

Mr Newman said the new plan would likely coincide with that work.

It comes as Opposition Leader Annastacia Palaszczuk again called on Mr Newman to outline his plans to prevent a public transport meltdown in the city.

"The election of an Abbott Government hasn't changed the fact that we are still only three years away from reaching capacity on our SEQ rail network," she said.

"If Brisbane's Cross-River Rail is not built then the network will hit capacity in 2016 and traffic will worsen as people are forced onto the roads.

"It also means rail passengers facing slower trips, crowded into carriages like sardines, and making more trips standing than sitting especially during peak hours." ...

[Stillwater]

Sounds like the state government is thinking bridge in vicinity of old botanical garden, maybe running in tunnel down George Street to Roma Street Station.

[Gazza]

Just looking on google earth, i reckon that executive precinct would be the key to it all....Have a bridge over the river, double deck with busway and rail next to the captain cook bridge.
Tunnel through the CBD would have its portal in the executive precinct somewhere (You could even have the station at "surface level", with the new buildings/casino planned above it)

Then a shallow level tunnel under George St, underground platform at Roma St, then surface and run around the ekka loop.....

[ozbob]

Sounds like the state government is thinking bridge in vicinity of old botanical garden, maybe running in tunnel down George Street to Roma Street Station.

Sounds feasible.  Guess we just have to wait to see what is actually being planned ..

[Gazza]

So here's my first stab at how you could do it.

The red dotted rectangle are buildings earmarked for demolition anyway. The yellow box is a 240m long station (9 cars), 26m wide. This is big enough for a 9 car train on the top level, and a busway station over twice the length of Cultural Centre on the lower level.

On approach the line runs over the river and above gardens point rd into the station, and after leaving the station it curves to get under George St, where it runs underground for 1.5km and surfaces next to the bus layovers space near countess st.
I guess the benefits of building the station there are that it puts it in the middle of where the action is planned to be in the CBD in the future and the construction cost would be lower...If the private sector was going to be flattening that area anyway, then that gives you a nice easy spot to put your station in, and then just build your building on top....Lots of value capture.
The location is also a tad closer for QUT students than albert st station.


http://i.imgur.com/3kVq51o.jpg

[#Metro]

This project is going to be about what's best for politicians, not the public.

* Easy access to parliament, especially when having late night meetings
* Easy access for top bureaucrats to the new public service building going up
* All sorts of green bragging rights if it is built as a TOD, spin doctors will love this
* Convenient for Lord Mayor et al - short walk to his office on George Street
* Lots of shops will open up near the station, convenient for ministers to grab lunch etc on long days

The best thing about Gazza's workup is that the station is right next to Parliament House and below the offices of ministers and public servants. Given that they (politicians) will have the most to gain from the station being sited like this, they are going to approve it.

[#Metro]

Sounds feasible.  Guess we just have to wait to see what is actually being planned ..

I THINK GAZZA IS ON THE MONEY!! 

[Gazza]

But to be fair, is it really a bad location? If they've suddenly decided that this is where the action going forward is going to be with casinos and new towers and all that jazz then it probably has the intensiveness of land use of for the station to go there....And it would be nicely located for QUT students too.