BaT - Bus and Train project (was UBAT, was no CRR)

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Two Brisbane Citytrains loaded with passengers came within metres of colliding when train failed to stop at red signal

=======================================

Media release 9th April 2013 re-released 16th November 2013 re-released 13th June 2014



SEQ: Suburban rail network needs Automatic Train Protection too!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has said the introduction of Automatic Train Protection (ATP) which incorporates improved signalling is well overdue on the suburban rail network in SEQ (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Automatic Train Protection (ATP) is a system that relays signal information, track speed information and other track information to trains, and can automatically slow or stop trains if they exceed the track speeds or approach signals at STOP at too high a speed. It will also stop trains that pass a signal at STOP unless a specific procedure is followed."

"There are concerns with rail safety generally and it is time that ATP was introduced on the suburban rail network."

ATP is needed because:

Safety - the current Automatic Warning System installed on Queensland Rail's suburban network will not prevent crashes or derailments caused by:

1) Excessive speed around corners or through switches.
2) Excessive speed through red signals compromising the safe stopping distance.
3) Excessive speed through yellow signals, again compromising the safe stopping distance.
4) Excessive speed on approach to dead end tracks, such as at termini.

ATP will prevent the majority of crashes caused by the above.

Capacity - ATP in conjunction with a high capacity signalling system such as European Railway Traffic Management System - ERTMS - level 2 allows for higher train frequencies and/or higher reliability.  This is important as we approach maximum capacity limits on the Merivale Bridge.

Cost savings - ERTMS level 2 has less track wayside equipment, reducing equipment maintenance costs.  Longer term significant cost savings.

Open market - as ERTMS is standards based, multiple manufacturers can bid for contracts. Multiple manufacturers can also be involved in a contract. Leads times may be faster, and approval processes may be simplified.

"It appears that moves to implement ATP have stalled (3).  We can really afford to wait any longer?"

References:

1. Automatic Train Protection (ATP) http://www.railsafe.org.au/section.jsp?id=8684

2. The European Railway Traffic Management System (ERTMS)  http://www.ertms.net/ertms/ertms-in-brief.aspx

3. Rail Safety Systems Assessment of the South East Queensland Rail Network http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Safety/railsafety/rail%20safety%20systems%20assessment%20of%20seq%20rail%20network%20update%202.pdf

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Stalled ...

[ozbob]

There is a serious issue at play here with BaT.

BaT is to have ATP.  Why is the rest of the  suburban network being ignored?

Unacceptable to me.

[colinw]

I very much suspect that the cost of a full ETCS level 2 (or equivalent) rollout has led to the idea being left to just quietly die.  It does not come cheap, particularly if retrofitting to existing rollingstock.

[BrizCommuter]

I very much suspect that the cost of a full ETCS level 2 (or equivalent) rollout has led to the idea being left to just quietly die.  It does not come cheap, particularly if retrofitting to existing rollingstock.

ATP (combined with high capacity signal block design) is still good value for money for capacity increases when compared to infrastructure options.

[Golliwog]

I very much suspect that the cost of a full ETCS level 2 (or equivalent) rollout has led to the idea being left to just quietly die.  It does not come cheap, particularly if retrofitting to existing rollingstock.

Pretty sure this years QTRIP has money for Westect to be installed on IMUs?

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

26th June 2014

What ever happened to ATP on the suburban rail network?

Greetings,

The public has become less than optimistic with the roll out of improved public transport solutions, little wonder hey?

Ok, what has happened to the roll out of Automatic Train Protection on the suburban rail network in SEQ?

Here is the last update of the Rail Safety Systems Assessment of the South East Queensland Rail Network, around 3 years old.

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Safety/railsafety/rail%20safety%20systems%20assessment%20of%20seq%20rail%20network%20update%202.pdf

on this page http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Safety/Rail-safety.aspx

ATP would have significant benefits over cost.  Apart from the very profound safety considerations, it would also allow improved train frequency hence capacity, particularly at peak when combined with high capacity signal block design. Driver Only Operation would also be possible.

Half baked infrastructure solutions such as BaT could be then approached from a more measured rational approach, as was properly planned Cross River Rail.  Planning for the BaT suggests that train operation will be under ATP control. Why is the rest of the suburban network not being upgraded?

Political knee-jerk solutions are not sound transport solutions.  Is south-east Queensland about to be condemned to prolonged transport failure?

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

Couriermail --> Two Brisbane Citytrains loaded with passengers came within metres of colliding when train failed to stop at red signal

=======================================

Media release 9th April 2013 re-released 16th November 2013 re-released 13th June 2014



SEQ: Suburban rail network needs Automatic Train Protection too!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has said the introduction of Automatic Train Protection (ATP) which incorporates improved signalling is well overdue on the suburban rail network in SEQ (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"Automatic Train Protection (ATP) is a system that relays signal information, track speed information and other track information to trains, and can automatically slow or stop trains if they exceed the track speeds or approach signals at STOP at too high a speed. It will also stop trains that pass a signal at STOP unless a specific procedure is followed."

"There are concerns with rail safety generally and it is time that ATP was introduced on the suburban rail network."

ATP is needed because:

Safety - the current Automatic Warning System installed on Queensland Rail's suburban network will not prevent crashes or derailments caused by:

1) Excessive speed around corners or through switches.
2) Excessive speed through red signals compromising the safe stopping distance.
3) Excessive speed through yellow signals, again compromising the safe stopping distance.
4) Excessive speed on approach to dead end tracks, such as at termini.

ATP will prevent the majority of crashes caused by the above.

Capacity - ATP in conjunction with a high capacity signalling system such as European Railway Traffic Management System - ERTMS - level 2 allows for higher train frequencies and/or higher reliability.  This is important as we approach maximum capacity limits on the Merivale Bridge.

Cost savings - ERTMS level 2 has less track wayside equipment, reducing equipment maintenance costs.  Longer term significant cost savings.

Open market - as ERTMS is standards based, multiple manufacturers can bid for contracts. Multiple manufacturers can also be involved in a contract. Leads times may be faster, and approval processes may be simplified.

"It appears that moves to implement ATP have stalled (3).  We can really afford to wait any longer?"

References:

1. Automatic Train Protection (ATP) http://www.railsafe.org.au/section.jsp?id=8684

2. The European Railway Traffic Management System (ERTMS)  http://www.ertms.net/ertms/ertms-in-brief.aspx

3. Rail Safety Systems Assessment of the South East Queensland Rail Network http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Safety/railsafety/rail%20safety%20systems%20assessment%20of%20seq%20rail%20network%20update%202.pdf

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[#Metro]

QR and the Queensland Government KNOW that they don't have ATP, KNOW that this is dangerous, there has now been a near miss event which they KNOW about, if something were to happen and persons were injured or heaven forbid, die, I am almost certain there would be one of those large ASX listed litigation funders launching class action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligence

[petey3801]

QR and the Queensland Government KNOW that they don't have ATP, KNOW that this is dangerous, there has now been a near miss event which they KNOW about, if something were to happen and persons were injured or heaven forbid, die, I am almost certain there would be one of those large ASX listed litigation funders launching class action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligence

Just an FYI, it was a loooooooooong way from being a near miss. Simply another CM beat up. Metres away? Yes, but not 2-3m, more like 100-200m...

[ozbob]

[HappyTrainGuy]

QR and the Queensland Government KNOW that they don't have ATP, KNOW that this is dangerous, there has now been a near miss event which they KNOW about, if something were to happen and persons were injured or heaven forbid, die, I am almost certain there would be one of those large ASX listed litigation funders launching class action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligence

Just an FYI, it was a loooooooooong way from being a near miss. Simply another CM beat up. Metres away? Yes, but not 2-3m, more like 100-200m...

Not to mention the UTC are quick to issue stop measures when a SPAD occurs.

[BrizCommuter]

QR and the Queensland Government KNOW that they don't have ATP, KNOW that this is dangerous, there has now been a near miss event which they KNOW about, if something were to happen and persons were injured or heaven forbid, die, I am almost certain there would be one of those large ASX listed litigation funders launching class action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligence

Just an FYI, it was a loooooooooong way from being a near miss. Simply another CM beat up. Metres away? Yes, but not 2-3m, more like 100-200m...

Moot point, lack of ATP is still an accident waiting to happen!

[Simon Lovell]

The CM said 3.25% (1 in 30.7) up from 3.00% (1 in 33.33)

Ha ha.  I remember the techos at the consultation saying that it was too late to change the acceptable gradient for the NGR stock.

[petey3801]

QR and the Queensland Government KNOW that they don't have ATP, KNOW that this is dangerous, there has now been a near miss event which they KNOW about, if something were to happen and persons were injured or heaven forbid, die, I am almost certain there would be one of those large ASX listed litigation funders launching class action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negligence

Just an FYI, it was a loooooooooong way from being a near miss. Simply another CM beat up. Metres away? Yes, but not 2-3m, more like 100-200m...

Moot point, lack of ATP is still an accident waiting to happen!

True, however it is getting on my nerves with the continual 'it was just metres from a crash!!!!11!!1!1' BS that the CM has bandied around.

ATP is something that should be implemented, yes. Nowhere have I ever said it wasn't. But people need to stop grasping at straws (and CM headlines) to prove their point, as it does little for their own integrity.


On the issue of gradients, I have a lot of trouble believing anything the Gov't say about only the NGR stock being able to handle the grades in the BaT tunnel. Considering there are sections of 1 in 30-ish grades on the network currently, which are not proving fatal to any of the rollingstock, as well as the fact that in Sydney, trains traverse 1 in 30 gradients all the time, with old trains (S and V sets, K sets, T sets) on less overhead power, and they don't have major problems. I think it's a case of the Gov't saying 'we're building this new tunnel, and because it's new, we only want the new trains to run in it'. The only trains I believe might feel the strain would be 60 series EMUs, but considering all the EMUs should be gone by the time this tunnel is open (if it ever does open, fingers crossed it doesn't...), there shouldn't be a problem. 160/260s should be able to tackle the grades without a problem, 120/220s the same. 100/200 might be a bit slower, but shouldn't be too much of a problem IMO. As we have seen, it's yet another "unsolvable" problem that TMR have come up with, which is likely a simple load of BS.

[ozbob]

BaT is just polyticks.  I feel sorry for the BaT project team.  Told to say one thing, and then undermined by more political expediency by Newman et al.

The best thing that can happen to the BaT is that it just flies away to Quilpie or even further west. 

[ozbob]

For interest. The steepest simple adhesion railway in Oz was the Camden line ..  1 in 19 ruling grade. 

[ozbob]

Minister for Transport and Main Roads
The Honourable Scott Emerson

Labor plan to destroy 100 homes and businesses

The Queensland Government is demanding Labor withdraw its support for the botched Cross River Rail project that would have resulted in 108 properties being demolished and communities being destroyed.

Transport and Main Roads Minister Scott Emerson said while the LNP government has a strong plan for a brighter future with no property resumptions, Labor has no plan other than to bring back a project that destroys local communities.

"The Labor Opposition Leader Annastacia Palaszczuk wants the government to deliver their failed unfunded Cross River Rail Project," Mr Emerson said.

"The fact is support for Cross River Rail means support for destroying more than 100 homes and businesses.

"Labor need to stand up today and rule out its support of a project that has a devastating impact to communities, like Yeerongpilly, particularly when there is a much better alternative.

"Unlike Labor's Cross River Rail project, the BaT Tunnel fixes capacity issues for both buses and trains, costs $3 billion less, and homes and businesses will not be resumed."

Mr Emerson said work has begun to revitalise areas such as Yeerongpilly that were left devastated by the former Labor government.

"When she was Transport Minister, Ms Palaszczuk spent $32 million of taxpayer money purchasing up to 65 properties, which Labor planned to raze, on a project it knew it could never afford," Mr Emerson said.

"The Opposition Leader already had to apologise to parliament after falsely claiming the Cross River Rail project was fully costed. Now she should rule out the community-destroying plan completely.

"We have already sold seven properties, purchased under Labor's bungled Cross River Rail project, with another four under contract.

"Unlike Labor, we are working hard to restore this community for residents and local businesses.

"While we have already started returning properties to market, we need to ensure we re-establish a community, rather than flood the market."

Out of the 108 sites that were going to be resumed, 82 were in the Yeerongpilly area, making it the most impacted suburb.

[ENDS] 30 June 2014

=======================

[dancingmongoose]

Actually Mr Emerson, I'd rather have a Park Road underground station thanks.

[petey3801]

Is this a joke? Seriously, please tell me this is a joke... 

[ozbob]

[ozbob]

The stubs at Dutton Park indicate that a future extension (as planned for CRR) is on the cards ..   what then?

[red dragin]

So when BaT is canned that means nothing will ever happen as the houses where sold and redeveloped into flats? 

[Derwan]

The stubs at Dutton Park indicate that a future extension (as planned for CRR) is on the cards ..   what then?

Exactly!  It WILL happen.  But I guess the LNP is expecting to lose the election before then and it'll happen while Labor is in power! 

[STB]

The politics has made this and the CRR projects messy, and frankly it will cost them even more in the long run.  I would suspect that the BaT project may get canned or postponed after next election, even if the LNP get back in power (minus Campbell).  As it seems obvious, the ALP looks to be wanting to get CRR back on the cards - this will probably get nasty between the two parties leading up to the election (along with the asset sales).

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Dutton Park neighbourhood plan fast-tracked

[Derwan]

So Dutton Park is becoming a transport hub..... well... half of one.

Gold Coast trains will stop at Dutton Park, creating a connection with trains travelling via South Brisbane - but not buses.... they're all at Park Road / Boggo Road.  And heaven forbid if you're coming from the Gold Coast and want to head towards Cleveland!

It would've been far better to close Dutton Park station, dive the tunnel sooner and put platforms underground close to Park Rd - with exits at both the Park Rd and Dutton Park ends.

Unfortunately logic and politics are mutually exclusive.

[James]

So Dutton Park is becoming a transport hub..... well... half of one.

Gold Coast trains will stop at Dutton Park, creating a connection with trains travelling via South Brisbane - but not buses.... they're all at Park Road / Boggo Road.  And heaven forbid if you're coming from the Gold Coast and want to head towards Cleveland!

It would've been far better to close Dutton Park station, dive the tunnel sooner and put platforms underground close to Park Rd - with exits at both the Park Rd and Dutton Park ends.

Unfortunately logic and politics are mutually exclusive.

Exactly. Why I am furious with the idiots who decided to look to do political point scoring and save Dutton Park station (a station which mind you, actually falls within Park Road station's catchment area, as well as the catchment area of multiple bus services), instead of doing the right thing by the community and actually focus on getting a connection at Park Road station *cough*ALP*cough*.

I believe the BaT alignment in terms of rail, is generally superior (ignoring lack of Park Rd) as you avoid the need for via South Brisbane trains (in the short term, and possibly even long term) to service Dutton Park/Fairfield/Yeronga.

[nathandavid88]

So Dutton Park is becoming a transport hub..... well... half of one.

Gold Coast trains will stop at Dutton Park, creating a connection with trains travelling via South Brisbane - but not buses.... they're all at Park Road / Boggo Road.  And heaven forbid if you're coming from the Gold Coast and want to head towards Cleveland!

It would've been far better to close Dutton Park station, dive the tunnel sooner and put platforms underground close to Park Rd - with exits at both the Park Rd and Dutton Park ends.

Unfortunately logic and politics are mutually exclusive.

Actually, the refinements that reinstated Dutton Park station also shows that Kent Street will be transformed into a two way busway spur, so there will be bus connections of some sort. According to the PDF, coming from PAH, buses can turn left onto the spur and past the station. After the station I'm pretty sure the thinking is to do a big loop of left onto Cornwall St > right onto Rusk St > right onto Annerley Road > right onto Cornwall Street and left back onto the busway. It looks like there will only be platforms on the station side of the road, which is why I'm thinking they'll do the loop. After stopping, buses go back down the spur and turn left out onto the main busway towards Boggo Road. The intersection with the spur looks to be a left in, left out arrangement, to it beats me how exactly they intend the reverse route to work.   

[Simon Lovell]

James, one gets the politicians society deserves.

[petey3801]

I believe the BaT alignment in terms of rail, is generally superior (ignoring lack of Park Rd) as you avoid the need for via South Brisbane trains (in the short term, and possibly even long term) to service Dutton Park/Fairfield/Yeronga.

Apart from the fact that we're still stuck with the bottleneck of Dutton Park to Yeerongpilly, plus the slower alignment of such, plus the continued mix of freight and pax as currently happens (mostly would have been separate with the CRR alignment), all of which means less services are possible in the short, medium and longer term with BaT compared to CRR. So, (IMO), no, the BaT alignment for rail is certainly not superior.

[bagbuffy]

So Dutton Park is becoming a transport hub..... well... half of one.

Gold Coast trains will stop at Dutton Park, creating a connection with trains travelling via South Brisbane - but not buses.... they're all at Park Road / Boggo Road.  And heaven forbid if you're coming from the Gold Coast and want to head towards Cleveland!

It would've been far better to close Dutton Park station, dive the tunnel sooner and put platforms underground close to Park Rd - with exits at both the Park Rd and Dutton Park ends.

Unfortunately logic and politics are mutually exclusive.

Exactly. Why I am furious with the idiots who decided to look to do political point scoring and save Dutton Park station (a station which mind you, actually falls within Park Road station's catchment area, as well as the catchment area of multiple bus services), instead of doing the right thing by the community and actually focus on getting a connection at Park Road station *cough*ALP*cough*.

I believe the BaT alignment in terms of rail, is generally superior (ignoring lack of Park Rd) as you avoid the need for via South Brisbane trains (in the short term, and possibly even long term) to service Dutton Park/Fairfield/Yeronga.

How is this the fault of the ALP? Last time I checked  Newman and the LNP are in office, or am I wrong?

[aldonius]

The 'Save Dutton Park' campaign was speaheaded by ALP MP for South Brisbane Jackie Trad.

[bagbuffy]

The 'Save Dutton Park' campaign was speaheaded by ALP MP for South Brisbane Jackie Trad.

So? Why didn't Newman and the LNP have the leadership and courage to continue on? Or is that the ALP's fault as well?

[James]

The 'Save Dutton Park' campaign was speaheaded by ALP MP for South Brisbane Jackie Trad.

So? Why didn't Newman and the LNP have the leadership and courage to continue on? Or is that the ALP's fault as well?

It is petty political point scoring. Really it should not be an issue, but instead of putting its political efforts towards doing its job (i.e. holding the government to account for dumb decisions), it instead went for political point scoring in saving a station which adds nothing to the public transport network.

Now we have a situation which is made even worse by the saving of Dutton Park station. There is absolutely no chance in hell now that BaT will include Park Road station.

[mufreight]

A situation that will undoubtedly change after the election with a change of government

[ozbob]

[ozbob]

Sadly team, polyticks and good public transportation policy are not delineated, they are inextricably together.

If LNP were presently in opposition, Mr Emerson or his equivalent would be leading the cheer squad to save Dutton Park!

I understand why Ms Trad was vocal, it is her electorate after all. 

It is the LNP that have decided, on their technical advice that suits their political advantage as well, to alter BaT to keep Dutton Park. Bottom line.

[ozbob]

> Dutton Park local area update—June and July 2014 (PDF, 2.2MB)

> Spring Hill local area update—June and July 2014 (PDF, 1.4MB)

[ozbob]

Election looming ...   

==============

Twitter

Felicity Caldwell @fel_caldwell

The BaT tunnel environmental impact statement and reference design released. Community consultation to follow

[ozbob]

Twitter

Geoff Breusch ‏@gbreusch

BaT Tunnel Enviro Impact Statement process details released by @theqldpremier #7NewsQ