BaT - Bus and Train project (was UBAT, was no CRR)

[ozbob]

Any suggestions?

Eg. continue focus on addressing all maintenance deficits.  Reliability is essential.

Signalling improvements?  ATP?

[#Metro]

Catch the train, make the plane... to NZ 

I would first start by ripping out the seats on short distance trains

Buy more trains to allow allocated trains to run on allocated lines (I don't believe QR can't do it - look at melbourne, sectorised train types as some types can't run on some lines)

Signalling Perhaps

Terminate trains at South Brisbane???

[ozbob]

I am not convinced ripping out seats as such will do much at all if anything in reality.

I have seen crush loads of least 1200 pax on EMUs for example, this is already over their design limit.

A few less seats around doorways, as has been done on some units, does probably improve dwells slightly.

But widespread seat removal I think is pointless.

[somebody]

Phase 1: Revise stopping patterns:
a: all to YLY, BNH all to VL
b: all to Park Rd, YLY, all to BNH
c: all to Manly
d: all to Park Rd, Morningside, Manly all to Cleveland

all running at 5tph

Phase 2: temporal spreading

Phase 3: signalling

Phase 4: terminate selected trains at South Brisbane.  Probably the ones from the Gold Coast.

Never, under any circumstances barring a disruption, run trains via Tennyson.

[ozbob]

I also think it is time to start thinking about a a combined bus/rail tunnel.   

Serious bus and rail capacity issues through core CBD sections. 

[techblitz]

I am not convinced ripping out seats as such will do much at all if anything in reality.

I have seen crush loads of least 1200 pax on EMUs for example, this is already over their design limit.

A few less seats around doorways, as has been done on some units, does probably improve dwells slightly.

But widespread seat removal I think is pointless.

which lines are you seeing this crush capacity on?

[ozbob]

Was back in 2007/2008.  Not now ... (eg. see --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=686.msg2877#msg2877 )

The point is they can already exceed their design limit so mass seat removal is pointless ... other than some for improved door access/exit ..

[colinw]

Stage 1 - an Operations Research / Simulation driven approach to modelling the existing system, to identify key choke points & infrastructure deficiencies.  Simulate operations, including failures / delays, to identify where the REAL rather than the PERCEIVED problems in the system are.  Much of this has probably already been done as part of the Inner City Rail Capacity Study.

Stage 2 - once the dynamics of the system are really understood, then start introducing timetable AND infrastructure changes - with analysis up front - to milk the most out of the existing system.  This could be timetable tweaks, small projects (e.g. missing crossovers, etc). It could also involve some larger projects like flyovers, short passing loops at stations by adding additional stations, etc.  The 4th platform at South Brisbane is likely to figure in this, as is fixing Park Road #4.

Stage 3 - introduce a new state of the art signalling system, most likely ETCS level 2 for the suburban area, falling back to level 1 or the existing WESTECT ATP for the mainlines.

Stage 4 - run out of capacity anyway in about 5-8 years time, having milked every last drop out of the existing network plus a few infrastructure tweaks and new signalling.

Stage 5 - build CRR anyway, but for 2% to 50% more than if we had started today, and having spent somewhere north of $2billion fiddling around the edges of the sytem.

What will actually happen:

Stage 1 - deny there is a problem
Stage 2 - crank the fares up, suppressing demand. No demand, no need to do anything
Stage 3 - continue to deny there is a problem, blame previous Government even though they have been gone for years
Stage 4 - commission a report, then bury it or attack it
Stage 5 - new government gets in and builds CRR for 25% to 50% more than if we had started today, but botches key details so it doesn't provide anywhere near the benefit it should have.

What the general public can and will do: drive a car, and bitch about not enough roads being built.

Frankly, I think it is time to walk away.

[ozbob]

Thanks all some good suggestions so far.  Cynicism is reasonable based on present form ...

Time to move on and try ...

I think there is some need to rethink the fares based on the CBD capacity constraints that will impact on all modes.  Remember the CRR Review commission by the LNP when first elected.  That seems to have been buried as well ..

[somebody]

Wow Colin.  That's a pretty negative angle there.

[#Metro]

I don't think much can be done other than signalling and perhaps bottleneck removal on the tracks (i.e. duplications).
Making expresses stop all stations would also increase throughput (outrage will follow nonetheless).

Major changes to the BCC City Plan to allow businesses to move into the suburbs/gold coast/sunshine coast/logan/ipswich. Ipswich and Springfield are good alternative places for businesses to set up shop. CBD will remain but as worker's can't access CBD (particularly southside), firms will have to move.

Stuffed really

[#Metro]

There is also the Fairfield Solution and the Cleveland Solution 
Honestly, I think they will be forced to return to South Brisbane termination 

You could also cut off the Cleveland line, terminating at Park Road or Buranda, and get trains to dump pax into the busway system. Chaotic, but a solution nonetheless. This would allow long distance GC pax and Beenleigh lines to continue over the bridge but Cleveland line pax to catch buses.

[colinw]

I don't think much can be done other than signalling and perhaps bottleneck removal on the tracks (i.e. duplications).
Making expresses stop all stations would also increase throughput (outrage will follow nonetheless).

I completely agree, hence my fairly cynical post above.

Even if we go all out with optimizing the existing system by analyisis, fixing of choke points & better signalling, the whole thing will come unstuck in under a decade because there is only so much traffic you can jam through the Roma St & Mayne/Albion junctions.

We'll end up back at CRR sooner rather than later, and having added Springfield & Kippa-Ring to the system will also be seeing congestion effects as far north as Petrie and around Darra/Corinda, particularly if the coal traffic picks up further.

I think freight curfews might be on the horizon as well.

[colinw]

Wow Colin.  That's a pretty negative angle there.

It is, sadly when it comes to CRR my fairly negative worst case expectations have been comfortably exceeded by the retards we seem to insist on electing.

Conversations with various family members convinces me that the CRR cancellation is inline with the expectations of many coalition supporters. My wife bluntly said "it was never going to be built anyway, get over it" and another close relative was bordering on abusive about my support for CRR and went into a pro Bruce Highway rant.  Sadly Newman & Abbott DO represent what may well be a majority view.

Abbott has done is "market research" well, and is pandering to the blinkered mindset of this hick country. Frankly, we don't have a chance.

[somebody]

Wow Colin.  That's a pretty negative angle there.

It is, sadly when it comes to CRR my fairly negative worst case expectations have been comfortably exceeded by the retards we seem to insist on electing.

Conversations with various family members convinces me that the CRR cancellation is inline with the expectations of many coalition supporters. My wife bluntly said "it was never going to be built anyway, get over it" and another close relative was bordering on abusive about my support for CRR and went into a pro Bruce Highway rant.  Sadly Newman & Abbott DO represent what may well be a majority view.

Worst case?  My expectations were for worse than what has actually happened.  CRR is still being talked about, the politicians on both sides of politics are at least giving it lip service.  There is no way we would be as advanced as we are now if we'd have voted Bligh out in 2009!  The Libs, if still in, would have been stalling still.

The retards we vote for certainly reflect the values of society, and when they don't we vote them out.

[colinw]

I actually think CRR will eventually get built, we'll just have to run out of easy options first.  I think that will take about 8 years at a minimum.

If the "no CRR" workaround involves rolling out advanced signalling that is a good thing, but I will throw a brick at my screen if anyone claimes it is a "congestion buster".  It'll milk a bit out of the infrastructure - probably at the expense of timetable reliability - but ultimately the constraint remains inner city capacity and those junctions.

[somebody]

but ultimately the constraint remains inner city capacity and those junctions.

Which are the junctions you are thinking of which cause a bottleneck for Beenleigh/Cleveland/GC lines in the AM peak?  I would assume your talking more broadly.

[colinw]

Yeah, broad brush strokes, trying to focus on other stuff today.

1.  Park Road.  CRR avoids the Cleveland / Beenleigh / Gold Coast conflicting movements.
2.  South Brisbane - 3 tracks down to 2 for Merivale.  Again, avoided by putting Gold Coast & some or all Beenleigh via the CRR tunnels, leaving Merivale for Cleveland and whatever still runs via the surface lines from Yeerongpilly.
3. Flat junction at Yeerongpilly. No Pax from Corinda any more, but with the CRR route in place, and in particular with additional tracks Yeerongpilly to Salisbury, you then can avoid freight/passenger conflicts which will make the coal & freight haul to the port go a lot more smoothly and even in peak.   This is a lesser problem than the others, but with coal traffic picking up shouldn't be overlooked.
4.  Roma St West junctions - with a large flow of southside trains via Merivale you end up with very slow running & congestion through to Roma St and through the Platform 1/4 grouping at Central.
5. Mayne/Albion isn't nearly as bad, mainly thanks to the Ferny Grove Flyover (yay, something was done right back in the 1970s). Still with CRR done properly it should be feasible to milk more out of Albion & north, although I suspect a 5th road to Northgate will be needed sooner rather than later unless Trouts Road ever gets built (not holding breath on that one!)

It would be interesting to model where the actual southside bottleneck actually is.  My gut says it might be South Brisbane station and the 3 to 2 track merge, with a little bit of Park Road thrown in.

[Stillwater]

Trouts Road rail needs CRR, I think - Catch 22.

Does anyone know if we are nearing the capacity of trains on the network based on the capacity of the traction control system?

Do we have enough power travelling through the overhead lines at peak period to cope with the trains drawing energy from it?

What is the unused capacity?

[somebody]

It would be interesting to model where the actual southside bottleneck actually is.  My gut says it might be South Brisbane station and the 3 to 2 track merge, with a little bit of Park Road thrown in.

I'd have thought Bowen Hills or perhaps Fortitude Valley would be the principal constraint to running more trains over the Merivale Bridge at present.

[ozbob]

These were the interim solutions arising from the Cross River Rail review
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=8632.msg102392#msg102392

Interim Solutions to be considered by the State Government

    Seat reconfiguration to increase capacity by approximately 5%
    Real time information to encourage passengers to choose less crowded services
    Station platform management to control station dwell times in order to maintain a maximum number of trains per hour in association with seating reconfiguration
    Demand management using targeted off-peak discounts to encourage passengers shift to the off-peak and shoulder peak services
    Turning back around 7% of trains to achieve another trip in the 2 hour peak period
    Timetabling the XPT away from the morning peak to create two extra train paths for Gold Coast or Beenleigh services
    Increasing the shoulder services around the AM peak one-hour and encouraging a reduction from 65% of trips in the peak one hour to approximately 60% of peak trips in the peak one hour
    Adding more peak period services up to the limit of the infrastructure which will add capacity but negatively impact reliability
    Undertaking targeted signalling system enhancements to improve the reliability of increased peak services
    Constructing targeted stabling facilities for additional trains at locations that reduce junction conflicts and improve capacity
    Sufficient new trains to support peak spreading and additional peak services

[minbrisbane]

If I'm correct, none of these have have had any further mention since? 

[ozbob]

If I'm correct, none of these have have had any further mention since?

Some seats were removed from a few EMUs.  But I think that was part of scheduled refurbishments and DDA upgrades anyway.

Some attempt by staff to improve dwells.  Couple of extra Gold Coast and Richlands services.  Nothing really major though.

Few timetable tweaks on 6 May last ..

Not much else as far as I am aware.  Sector 2 timetables have been pushed back.

The new generation trains is apparently proceeding.  See http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg125208#msg125208

Some interpeak stabling at Roma St, platforms 2 and 3 ...

[somebody]

    Timetabling the XPT away from the morning peak to create two extra train paths for Gold Coast or Beenleigh services

This is included in the leaked draft NSW swtt (standard working (train) timetable) which is supposed to be implemented in October, at least for the northbound service.  Can't remember how much earlier the southbound service left.  Northbound service moves by more than an hour.

[Stillwater]

This sounds all so hollow now, doesn't it?  From the LNP's 'Building Queensland's Future Together' document:

The Building Queensland's Future – Together Discussion Paper proposes:

Fast Tracking "Critical Priority Projects":

Bruce Highway – Brisbane to Cairns
Brisbane Inner City Rail
Toowoomba Range Western Freight Corridor
Eastern Busway to Capalaba
Roads to Resources in Regional Queensland
Upgrades for dangerous Level Rail Crossings

"The LNP is committed to getting Queensland back on track in economic performance, social development and infrastructure investment and will have a real plan for our State's future.  Under the current tired Labor Government infrastructure constraints
hamper the performance of the Four Pillars of Queensland's economy.

"The LNP believes delivering infrastructure to drive economic growth and deliver services should be a primary policy objective of our State Government.

"An LNP Government will provide real leadership, long term planning and a firm commitment to a continual pipeline of projects with a flexible approach towards matching the best financing option for Queenslanders with the right project at the right time.  A CanDo LNP Government will deliver major infrastructure to transform our economy."

The onus is on the state government to reveal its alternative plans for fast tracking plans for Brisbane Inner City Rail, in accordance to its undertaking to the electorate.  It's use of the term 'Brisbane Inner City Rail' during the election campaign (as opposed to 'Cross River Rail') show that, from the outset, it was never committed to CRR.

Remember how RailBOT pushed Seeney for his transport policy, and one never eventuated?  LNP just went through the motions on CRR Lite, and were confounded when they got what they asked for from the feds.  The issue is whether Queensland can build big infrastructure projects.  In the past, the government has spruiked big projects and then proceeded to build them in incremental bits.  CRR can't be built that way.

[#Metro]

It's terminal guys.
Stuffed buses
Stuffed trains
Stuffed Infrastructure
Stuffed Fares

Politicians cannot run ANYTHING competently even if they are wall to wall same team!

USELESS!

There are some nice specials going for flights to NZ ---> http://www.webjet.com.au/flights/new-zealand-specials/?gclid=CI2aw97dq7cCFcdIpgodK3wAVw

[Jonno]

Cancel the expenditure on freeway/motorway expansions/extensions and fund on our own as directed by LNP Federal Leader!

[ozbob]

http://segwaysoutherncross.com/

[#Metro]

Cross River Rail BBQ in the CBD!
Raise (private) money for CRR

We can write them a cheque for $25



The other thing you could do is slap a toll / surcharge on the Merivale bridge passengers who touch off at Roma Street, Central, Brunswick St etc.

[ozbob]

The State Opposition parties need to now develop a proper sound public transport plan for the next election, and no hysterical 7 car train stuff either.

They need to articulate a proper fare system. 

Do that and I expect they will pick up a lot of seats in SEQ ...

[petey3801]

c: all to Manly
d: all to Park Rd, Morningside, Manly all to Cleveland

all running at 5tph

Pointless having such a large express run with the all stopper only 10 mins (at most with current signalling) in front. As it is, with the stoppers 11-13mins in front of the express trains (EXP PKR - MNY) the express is on restricted signals around Lindum.

I'd say go for Park Road to Wynnum North stopping only at Morningside. It'll probably take a similar amount of time in reality as running exp to Manly.

[Golliwog]

rtt, the fare structure sure hasn't helped but they're MEANT to be coming up with a new one that deals with the short comings of our current one. What we'll actually get, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Two other points though: 1, why does everything have to be reactive rather than proactive with growth? 2: CRR also helps with trains from the north on the suburbans. Currently trains from Airport, Doomben, Shorncliffe and Ferny Grove have to either cross the mains at Roma St, park in platform 2/3 or run across the bridge.

[Stillwater]

The Independent Review of CRR estimated that the early capacity enhancement works would cost $300m.  The state budget must include this figure and show how the money will be raised.  If the state does not recognise that $300m is needed, we are in strife!  It will be a government in denial on transport infrastructure needs.

[#Metro]

Maybe the scope will change into CRR, CRR Lite and CRR mini 

Perhaps they'll just dig hole in the ground with a shovel and call that CRR mini
Play around with the scope a bit and declare a cost saving and triumph!

Perhaps only build one track railway plus don't put up power gantries? Would be perfect form for QLD

It would me much cheaper!

[ozbob]

From the Couriermail click here!

Track change on rail future without Cross River Rail

Track change on rail future without Cross River Rail

    by: Robyn Ironside
    From: The Courier-Mail
    May 24, 2013 12:00AM

PREMIUM-PRICED peak fares and a timetable rejig are among the measures being considered to try to squeeze more capacity out of southeast Queensland's rail network.

With Cross River Rail plans in tatters, the State Government has been forced to examine plan B to deal with escalating demand for rail services.

But transport groups yesterday warned the measures were "tinkering at the edges" and, without Cross River Rail, Brisbane would be choked by congestion.

Among the limited options available were a fare restructure to make off-peak travel more appealing, signalling changes to better co-ordinate trains and a timetable review to determine how many services could be packed into peak periods.

Better platform management - to get people on and off trains faster - is also being adopted but a proposal to rip seats out of trains to create more space has been shelved after it was decided it would make little difference.

The steps were originally proposed to help stretch Brisbane's inner rail capacity until Cross River Rail was built in 2020 but they have taken on a new urgency in light of a funding stalemate.

Federal Opposition leader Tony Abbott has refused to help fund the project and the State Government is not satisfied with Labor's $715 million deal conditional on an equal contribution from Queensland.

Yesterday the Tourism and Transport Forum warned that without Cross River Rail, congestion would increase.

"Congestion in Brisbane already costs $2 billion a year and that's forecast to reach $3 billion by the end of the decade without investment in public transport projects like the Cross River Rail," chief executive Ken Morrison said.

Commuter advocacy group Back on Track's Robert Dow said the measures were basically "tinkering at the edges".

He said significant fare changes would be needed to change commuter behaviour.

"Off-peak fares need to be very significantly discounted, maybe by 50 per cent, and shoulder peak where people travel earlier or later in the peak, possibly up to 30 per cent (discount)," he said.

He said the Government could also introduce an Automatic Train Protection system to allow trains to run faster and closer together safely.

Mr Abbott says his government's commitment would be to traditional areas of responsibility such as highways.

But Mr Morrison said roads alone could not solve the congestion facing Brisbane.

"Assuring future productivity and addressing congestion requires federal investment in both roads and public transport infrastructure," he said.

[somebody]

rtt, the fare structure sure hasn't helped but they're MEANT to be coming up with a new one that deals with the short comings of our current one. What we'll actually get, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Two other points though: 1, why does everything have to be reactive rather than proactive with growth? 2: CRR also helps with trains from the north on the suburbans. Currently trains from Airport, Doomben, Shorncliffe and Ferny Grove have to either cross the mains at Roma St, park in platform 2/3 or run across the bridge.

1: Not sure what you are talking about?  They're referring to a problem in the future and talking about building something to handle that.  Seems pretty good to me.
2: Not in the CRRlite plan advanced.

Regarding fares, a few hints have been released.  I expect: 9 then free to remain, higher off peak discount (or surcharge for travelling in peak), perhaps two level off peak discount (hope not), reduction in planned 2014 fares.

[somebody]

c: all to Manly
d: all to Park Rd, Morningside, Manly all to Cleveland

all running at 5tph

Pointless having such a large express run with the all stopper only 10 mins (at most with current signalling) in front. As it is, with the stoppers 11-13mins in front of the express trains (EXP PKR - MNY) the express is on restricted signals around Lindum.

I'd say go for Park Road to Wynnum North stopping only at Morningside. It'll probably take a similar amount of time in reality as running exp to Manly.

Fair enough, but current timings have only 6-8 minutes saved by the Park Rd to Manly express.

[colinw]

Maybe the scope will change into CRR, CRR Lite and CRR mini 

Perhaps they'll just dig hole in the ground with a shovel and call that CRR mini
Play around with the scope a bit and declare a cost saving and triumph!

Perhaps only build one track railway plus don't put up power gantries? Would be perfect form for QLD

It would me much cheaper!

Nah, we're getting CRR ZERO.  Its really good for you, because you have to WALK!

[#Metro]

^ Disagree. One track railway would be worse than zero - like buying a car without wheels - it would cost money but the benefits would be grossly negative PLUS you could put out a lot of media releases from your Gov't PR department and it would be useless and half baked.

PERFECT IDEA!!

[colinw]

One track railway would be worse than zero

Just like the ones we built to the Gold Coast & Airport in the '90s.