Gold Coast line local services

[SurfRail]

Yes, and people are arguing for "infill stations"?

Where?

[somebody]

Yes, and people are arguing for "infill stations"?

Where?

Gold Coast line, between Caboolture and Petrie.

[SurfRail]

^ Infill Gold Coast line stations have only ever been about local service between Beenleigh and the southern terminus, not adding them to the express pattern.  My views on that now align with what's in the GCCC Transport Strategy (and unsurprisingly since I had some input on it), which itself aligns with the preserved stations sites in the IDAS system.

(Infill Caboolture stations make perfect sense if trains are running non-stop from Petrie, but not otherwise.)

[somebody]

^ Infill Gold Coast line stations have only ever been about local service between Beenleigh and the southern terminus, not adding them to the express pattern.  My views on that now align with what's in the GCCC Transport Strategy (and unsurprisingly since I had some input on it), which itself aligns with the preserved stations sites in the IDAS system.

Not sure how that would work.  There's not enough of a facility at Beenleigh to allow turning around trains to the south and they can't really become Beenleigh trains.

[SurfRail]

Not sure how that would work.  There's not enough of a facility at Beenleigh to allow turning around trains to the south and they can't really become Beenleigh trains.

Beenleigh won't be able to cope in its current configuration for much longer anyway. 

Ideal plan would to relocate it to the south and put it adjacent to the stabling yard, with a proper concourse and bus interchange and more than 2 platforms, which being located where I am suggesting could be ruler straight and high-level.  (2 islands sounds about right with the inside 2 tracks being for terminating services.)  The stabling yard would be reconfigured to allow for access principally from the south.

As a quick and nasty fix they could always put in a siding and change ends here and use that as a turnback.

[SurfRail]

It would be a half hourly express service and a half hourly local all stations service in the off-peak, to give 4 trains per hour at the most important stations (it likely wouldn't be clockface 15m headways). With the number of additional stations to be constructed (Stapylton/Yatala, Ormeau Hills, Pimpama, Hope Island, Parkwood and Merrimac - and this is ignoring south of Varsity Lakes), there is no way the Gold Coast to Brisbane service can accommodate them all and remain fast.

I would envisage the express as stopping only at Beenleigh, Coomera, Helensvale, Nerang and Robina.  If the light rail is extended to Parkwood I would ditch Nerang and replace it with Parkwood.  In peak both the shuttle and the express would run more frequently so connections would be easier.

[somebody]

It would be a half hourly express service and a half hourly local all stations service in the off-peak, to give 4 trains per hour at the most important stations (it likely wouldn't be clockface 15m headways). With the number of additional stations to be constructed (Stapylton/Yatala, Ormeau Hills, Pimpama, Hope Island, Parkwood and Merrimac - and this is ignoring south of Varsity Lakes), there is no way the Gold Coast to Brisbane service can accommodate them all and remain fast.

I would envisage the express as stopping only at Beenleigh, Coomera, Helensvale, Nerang and Robina.  If the light rail is extended to Parkwood I would ditch Nerang and replace it with Parkwood.  In peak both the shuttle and the express would run more frequently so connections would be easier.

I'd still wonder if it would slow the GC-BNE trains.  Not sure you would be passing the stations at 140km/h and 6 stations only allows a 2 minute slowdown per station.  Not sure it's enough.

[SurfRail]

It would be a half hourly express service and a half hourly local all stations service in the off-peak, to give 4 trains per hour at the most important stations (it likely wouldn't be clockface 15m headways). With the number of additional stations to be constructed (Stapylton/Yatala, Ormeau Hills, Pimpama, Hope Island, Parkwood and Merrimac - and this is ignoring south of Varsity Lakes), there is no way the Gold Coast to Brisbane service can accommodate them all and remain fast.

I would envisage the express as stopping only at Beenleigh, Coomera, Helensvale, Nerang and Robina.  If the light rail is extended to Parkwood I would ditch Nerang and replace it with Parkwood.  In peak both the shuttle and the express would run more frequently so connections would be easier.

I'd still wonder if it would slow the GC-BNE trains.  Not sure you would be passing the stations at 140km/h and 6 stations only allows a 2 minute slowdown per station.  Not sure it's enough.

No issue with top-speed running through stations from any standpoint I'm aware of. 

Not sure if its 140kph but there are certainly plenty of out of service trains passing through Nerang at full pelt.  You generally wouldn't see it because there simply aren't any timetabled expresses at present apart from late and early positioning movements.

[petey3801]

It would be a half hourly express service and a half hourly local all stations service in the off-peak, to give 4 trains per hour at the most important stations (it likely wouldn't be clockface 15m headways). With the number of additional stations to be constructed (Stapylton/Yatala, Ormeau Hills, Pimpama, Hope Island, Parkwood and Merrimac - and this is ignoring south of Varsity Lakes), there is no way the Gold Coast to Brisbane service can accommodate them all and remain fast.

I would envisage the express as stopping only at Beenleigh, Coomera, Helensvale, Nerang and Robina.  If the light rail is extended to Parkwood I would ditch Nerang and replace it with Parkwood.  In peak both the shuttle and the express would run more frequently so connections would be easier.

I'd still wonder if it would slow the GC-BNE trains.  Not sure you would be passing the stations at 140km/h and 6 stations only allows a 2 minute slowdown per station.  Not sure it's enough.

Trains can (and do, when empty) run past stations at 140km/h. Nothing wrong with it. Happens all the time overseas as well. 6 stations with a 2 minute slow down per station is 12mins, that's a pretty big slow down on the express trains to the city and would quite likely result in loss of patronage from those who can drive it.

[somebody]

6 stations with a 2 minute slow down per station is 12mins, that's a pretty big slow down on the express trains to the city and would quite likely result in loss of patronage from those who can drive it.

And yet that's a perfectly reasonable slow down expectation from 140km/h.  One member did some calcs a while ago, assuming 1.1m/s/s braking and 0.9 m/s/s acceleration 90.67s are lost from 140km/h.  So a dwell of 30s reaches 2 minutes slow down per station.  From 130km/h it's 87.41s lost. 

2 minutes lost per station is totally reasonable, hence my problem!

[Arnz]

I'm fairly sure it was already mentioned by those in the know that there are 140km/h late/early morning positioning movements on the Gold Coast line for the morning peak services.

The same also applies on the 140km/h Beerburrum-Caboolture stretch.  There are late night/early morning empty running between the Nambour and Caboolture yards (as NBR yard can only fit 3x 6-car units and the NBR/GYN peak timetable requires x5 6-car units for ex-NBR runs)

[petey3801]

6 stations with a 2 minute slow down per station is 12mins, that's a pretty big slow down on the express trains to the city and would quite likely result in loss of patronage from those who can drive it.

And yet that's a perfectly reasonable slow down expectation from 140km/h.  One member did some calcs a while ago, assuming 1.1m/s/s braking and 0.9 m/s/s acceleration 90.67s are lost from 140km/h.  So a dwell of 30s reaches 2 minutes slow down per station.  From 130km/h it's 87.41s lost. 

2 minutes lost per station is totally reasonable, hence my problem!

I'm not disputing the calculations, i'm saying adding an extra 12 minutes to the Gold Coast express timetable is quite a bit of extra time, which would very likely result in a significant drop in patronage.

In fact, I might actually dispute some of the figures, as they probably don't take in to account the fact that some stations might not be far enough apart to reach 140km/h between them, so there is more time lost there.

[somebody]

I'm not disputing the calculations, i'm saying adding an extra 12 minutes to the Gold Coast express timetable is quite a bit of extra time, which would very likely result in a significant drop in patronage.

That is my argument also.  The infill stations should never be built!  "Local services" probably would not survive cost cutting.  Someone will say, "just have one kind of service".  Witness the number of people on this forum calling for all stations trains on every line.

[#Metro]

Just say NO.

New stations are easily $100 - $200 million each, all the disability requirements, design, planning, lighting etc all add up to an ENORMOUS COST. Then you have to staff it and maintain it.

It is not going to make travel faster or cheaper or make it run longer. It would improve accessibility but so would a proper feeder bus connecting to the train.

There are lots of other places on the network that need improvement and central to everything - more services more often!! So much is going into capital works it angers me (but is necessary for disability etc) I want to see more train services more often running for longer on the existing network.

Cosmetics and nice to haves can come later. Sort out the basics first. Don't spend it on Engineers' Botox!

Everybody wants a train station near their house but also an express from their house to the CBD, not stopping anywhere else. Two conflicting goals.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'd like to see Gold Coast services going back to their original 1996 running pattern ie South Brisbane express to Beenleigh. Helensvale to South Brisbane was only 60 minutes and there wasn't any triple at the time along with there being tighter curves and longer dwells on the Beenleigh-Helensvale bit. The last night service really flew to the Gold Coast as the dwells didn't exist.

[somebody]

I'd like to see Gold Coast services going back to their original 1996 running pattern ie South Brisbane express to Beenleigh. Helensvale to South Brisbane was only 60 minutes and there wasn't any triple at the time along with there being tighter curves and longer dwells on the Beenleigh-Helensvale bit. The last night service really flew to the Gold Coast as the dwells didn't exist.

Current timetable has Helensvale to Sth Bris in 58 minutes.

[SurfRail]

Stations every 3-4 km are perfectly reasonable for an all stations service, and I will stand by that.  We are NOT talking about somewhere like Kuraby to Coopers Plains here.

I am also satisfied there are no issues with expresses and all stations services on the Gold Coast line from Beenleigh to the terminus.

Parkwood would be built as part of a light rail extension - no reason for it otherwise.  The others would be unmanned and fairly simple local stations, and would need to be to fit within the footprint of the existing corridor anyway.

[SurfRail]

Everybody wants a train station near their house but also an express from their house to the CBD, not stopping anywhere else. Two conflicting goals.

That has zero relevance to the Gold Coast line.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Current timetable has Helensvale to Sth Bris in 58 minutes.

Yes and as I said alot has changed (Helensvale to South Brisbane is still the same at 58/59 minutes. It was longer outbound because of restrictions). There is now a tripple to Kuraby. Coopers Plains to Kuraby now have higher and faster track speeds (IIRC Runcorn-Kuraby is now 100kph when it used to be 70 and E90 boards). Stations were relocated off curves (Coopers Plains and Runcorn). There's no 25kph Helensvale approach speed restriction. Signalling has been upgraded and improved. Trinder Park has had slight curve easing. Coopers Plains to Sailsbury was upgraded to maintain a higher speed rather than going through slower points.

After all that its now the same-2 minutes faster stopping at an extra 3-4 stations? Imagine how quick it could be if it was running on its old pattern *foam*

[somebody]

I am also satisfied there are no issues with expresses and all stations services on the Gold Coast line from Beenleigh to the terminus.

Never let facts get in the way then.

[Gazza]

New stations are easily $100 - $200 million each

Errrm, no they aren't.

Cardina Rd was closer to $54 million, and that's at Melbourne prices.
Adelaide has done new stations on the Gawler line for $13 mil.

You can spend as much as you want if you do all the bells and whistles, but i don't think anybody wants that.

[SurfRail]

I am also satisfied there are no issues with expresses and all stations services on the Gold Coast line from Beenleigh to the terminus.

Never let facts get in the way then.

What facts?

Traincrew in this thread have confirmed that trains routinely run at 140kph through Gold Coast stations without stopping, which confirms my own observations.  The only reason it doesn't happen with revenue services is because they all stop at all stations.  The Mandurah and Joondalup lines operate under similar conditions with express and all stations running. 

Petey - correct me if I'm wrong, but it goes something like this, right?

Slow section south of the Beenleigh yard
110kph through the windy bit just south of Beenleigh
140kph all the way to the approach to Robina yard
A lower speed through Robina
120kph from south of Robina to Varsity

Are there actually any different speedboards between Yatala and Robina?

[somebody]

I am also satisfied there are no issues with expresses and all stations services on the Gold Coast line from Beenleigh to the terminus.

Never let facts get in the way then.

What facts?

If there are more than 6 "local" stations, which there will be if the line extends south from Varsity Lakes, or if the dwells take longer than about 30s (which is fairly quick), the express trains will be delayed.  Assuming that there is 3 minute headways and 15 minute peak frequencies on the line.  Actually, that only gives you 9 minutes to play with, not 12 like I was thinking above.  So the 6 local stations would be a problem with maintaining the 15 minute peak service.

[SurfRail]

What I was suggesting was that it can be done, not necessarily that they can do this from tomorrow.  None of this is going to be possible without better infrastructure anyway.  For a start, none of this can happen unless the Coomera-Helensvale section is fixed. 

4 platforms at Helensvale would probably solve any issues if you needed to overtake, and it wouldn't be overly difficult - there is heaps of room for a second island and the concourse is already configured for it.

[HappyTrainGuy]

All the points between the up and down are 80kph with Robina being a 50kph point IIRC. If my memory is right there are 80/E100 boards just after the Gooding Drive overpass and a 60 over the creek where the stabling yards are. Heading north its 100kph out of the station and then powering up to 140 just after the creek. Reason being crews cross the tracks there.

[Gazza]

In terms of Local stations the only ones I care about seeing are.
-Parkwood, for an LRT connection.
-Hope Island Rd, because the only way you can get from Hope Island and Paradise Point etc to Helensvale or Coomera is to go via the M1 at some point, and a really indirect trip overall, so feeder buses lapdog suggests would be quite unattractive over that distance and routing.

[SurfRail]

My ranking for what is needed would be (in decreasing order)

1. Parkwood
2. Hope Island
3. Stapylton/Yatala
4. Pimpama
5. Ormeau Hills
6. Merrimac

None of this is high priority stuff.  Coomera River and rapid transit are bigger infrastructure priorities.

Spending $100m on the bus fleet would do more for the city at present than any of this I think.  Current fleet is around 380 (including the buses only used for Tweed services and Gold Coast Tourist Shuttle operations).  A spend like that would allow you to eliminate all of the 70-80 high-floor buses left, and add about the same number again, giving you a fleet in the 460-470 range - nearly all of which can be used for normal route service instead of some being restricted to school/charter/football/event work.

It would also go some way to funding a new bus depot in the Robina / Burleigh area to help cut down on dead running.

[#Metro]

Just say NO.

Spend the money on the GCLRT extension and rail extension to the border.
If you put in more stations, there will be pressure to make the expresses stop at the local stop stations / multiple patterns, because everyone wants express to stop at their station. If the station doesn't exist, then no-one can make the train stop there.

Sort out the buses.

[petey3801]

Petey - correct me if I'm wrong, but it goes something like this, right?

Slow section south of the Beenleigh yard
110kph through the windy bit just south of Beenleigh
140kph all the way to the approach to Robina yard
A lower speed through Robina
120kph from south of Robina to Varsity

Are there actually any different speedboards between Yatala and Robina?

That's basically correct. All points from Beenleigh (exclusive) to Nerang (inclusive) are 80km/h, so Up trains coming in to Helensvale slow to 80km/h for the points to the Up road while Down trains can pass straight through at 140km/h and vice versa at Coomera.

Basic layout is thus:
60km/h through Beenleigh platform
(Current TSR 40km/h from southern end of BNH platform to after the traincrew walkway/roughly in line with the start of the stabling yard)
110km/h (both roads) at the start (northern end) of the stabling yard
140km/h around the tractor dealership (about 1km north of Pac Mwy overbridge)
Ormeau: 140km/h on Up track both directions, 100km/h on Down track both directions (not sure why). 100km/h board is just on the northern side of the station until northern end of the points after the station
Coomera: 140km/h on Up both ways, 80km/h on the Down both ways due to points on to single track. 80km/h heading south starts about 150m or so before the platform, ends after the points)
Helensvale: 80km/h going to/from the Up track both ways due to points, 140km/h on down track. 80 on Up track starts/finishes just south of Helensvale platform
Robina: 100km/h both tracks before the creek approaching Robina
          Down track goes back to 90 before the points from Down to Up (going in up direction), Up road goes back to 90 around about the southern end of the stabling yard
          Both tracks back to 100km/h just before Robina platform
          Down direction basically mirrors the Up
          Points from Down to Up in Up direction at Robina are 40km/h, points from Up to Down before the platform are 25km/h, points from Down to Up south of the platform are 50km/h
100km/h both roads from Robina platform until just after the top of the hill after the "tunnel", then to 120km/h.
Varsity: 80 (straight) 50 (turnout) at the points, 50 (both roads) after the points, 25 entering the platform (both roads). Down direction is 120 from the platform (50 for the points, obviously).

[James]

The Gold Coast Line works extremely effectively (and aside from it being originally built as single track, is one of the examples where Queensland has actually got rail infrastructure right), and to add more stations would slow down trains significantly. If the portion of the GC line north of Beenleigh only took around 30 minutes Roma Street - Beenleigh, you'd find patronage soar solely because it would be almost as fast as the car and for a fair amount less.

Given the line's nature as an interurban train for travel to Brisbane (local travel, from my travels on the line, is quite limited) and its separation from a lot of the urban sprawl on the Gold Coast, addition of stations would draw limited patronage and increase travel times. Money should be spent on extending the line down to Coolangatta, with stations only at Elanora and Coolangatta. Also for this reason, right now there is no need for local services along the line.

Come 20XX (or whenever QLD finally stops being a PT basket case) and there is quad to Kuraby/triple to Beenleigh, local services should be considered using said in-fill stations. I think passing loops or a similar arrangement at the non-express stops would be the cheapest arrangement, but ideally the corridor should be quadruplicated in the lead-up to this. Expensive, but it would stop the half-baking of infrastructure and expresses having to dance around all-stoppers.

[SurfRail]

I don't think any of you really appreciate what is happening adjacent to the railway corridor at places like Pimpama. 

Most of the city's greenfield development is going to occur at places like Coomera and Ormeau, which is going to create massive demand for intra-city transport.  The point is to orient the system AWAY from delivering most of the local population to other parts of SEQ by creating a new market around local services.

Using the logic displayed in this thread:

- The South Coast line should not have a Thirroul to Port Kembla all stations pattern and all trains should continue to Central with most stations on the line closed down.
- There should only be about 3 stations between Springfield and Ipswich if the line is ever built.
- Buses running 4km up the M1 or in completely the wrong direction to where people need to go are superior to a station stop at a preserved station site for what is currently a lightly patronised service running anyway.

Some of the people commenting here are guilty of insane suggestions like trying to redevelop agricultural land holdings fronting onto the Rosewood line or redeveloping the Logan Village corridor for rail service, and yet object to the idea of existing developments having access to the public transport system through the most logical solution.

I wonder about this board sometimes.

[Gazza]

- There should only be about 3 stations between Springfield and Ipswich if the line is ever built.

And similarly, people tell me off for thinking 2km is too close between Richlands and Ellen Grove  and because I think it doesn't warrant a station yet because there's not even a hint it will be subdivided.

[somebody]

I wonder about this board sometimes.

As do I.

I'm not at all sure how you plan to handle the peak hour effect of trains catching up to the one in front or its exacerbation if the line extends further south.  For the former you could extend the Beenleigh trains south to Coomera and make that the stepping off point for the express, but that means a significant degradation in the service at Beenleigh and Ormeau and also goes against the suggestion of a new station at Beenleigh.

[SurfRail]

I'm not at all sure how you plan to handle the peak hour effect of trains catching up to the one in front or its exacerbation if the line extends further south.  For the former you could extend the Beenleigh trains south to Coomera and make that the stepping off point for the express, but that means a significant degradation in the service at Beenleigh and Ormeau and also goes against the suggestion of a new station at Beenleigh.

I don't deny this is a problem, but I think it's easily solvable.

What I suspect might be the go is to construct the new stations as outward facing island platforms, like the attached diagram.

For platform width and station amenities, we would be talking something very basic like Greenwood in Perth (probably just without quite as much open parking nearby). 

At Greenwood, you have a very, very basic facility which was built cheaply.  The only functional differences would be that the platforms would face "outwards" and the lines in the middle would be the through-route.  The closed platform face would just be a barrier of some kind which is CPTED compliant, presumably similar to however they have closed off the platform face on the western island platform at Narangba.

Perhaps it would be easier to put the through tracks on the outside - I don't know, but I would expect keeping the through tracks as straight as possible and avoiding unnecessary turnouts would help maintain speed.

[Set in train]

A fascinating discussion, worth a second read. Whilst a lot of the ideas have merit, the comments made to the local paper's website by those who use the train when the service is mentioned is always the same: speed.

All the people who make a comment at the end of an article about the service who live in the area all want a faster service.

Travel times have reduced over recent years by a few minutes here and there. Effort needs to be made as to what can cut time prior to CRR ever being built.

[SurfRail]

A fascinating discussion, worth a second read. Whilst a lot of the ideas have merit, the comments made to the local paper's website by those who use the train when the service is mentioned is always the same: speed.

All the people who make a comment at the end of an article about the service who live in the area all want a faster service.

Travel times have reduced over recent years by a few minutes here and there. Effort needs to be made as to what can cut time prior to CRR ever being built.

My perspective (and I think it's reasonably qualified being a full-time user of the line for 6 years as of yesterday) is that most of the comments and criticisms relate to "overcrowding" rather than speed, although both issues do come up.

The only way to actually get the speed up is going to be doing something somewhat like I am suggesting.  For instance, with my proposed pattern, trains would get an uninterrupted run from Coomera to Beenleigh, which might save 2 minutes, and people in the intermediate section would be able to change at Beenleigh.

I would be very reticent to do anything like this unless we had all-day outer Beenleigh expresses, and more Beenleigh expresses in peak.

This is all off in the never never and so it is only a set of talking points.  I've already quite happily agreed that money needs to be spent on fixing the Coomera to Helensvale section, extending LRT and improving the bus system before worrying about infill stations or any heavy rail extension.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Travel times have reduced over recent years by a few minutes here and there. Effort needs to be made as to what can cut time prior to CRR ever being built.

Helensvale to the city is the same transit time as it was in 1996.

[somebody]

Travel times have reduced over recent years by a few minutes here and there. Effort needs to be made as to what can cut time prior to CRR ever being built.

Helensvale to the city is the same transit time as it was in 1996.

Better than most other lines which have gone backwards.

[petey3801]

- The single track section is not a major bottle neck, rather the approaches to the station prior to single track, easily improved by extending the duplication up to 500m or so past the station, maybe even closer to the river ie Helensvale Rd on sth side, Beatie Rd on Nth side.

The only thing that will do is slow the trains down further. As the point speed will be 80km/h, there will be no point in speeding up again from 80 before the station on either end. Plus, the Coomera river bridge is not the only bridge on that section. Yes, it is the most major one, however that entire section is littered with bridges, so it's going to cost a lot either way. Either leave it as it is or do the lot.

Having both the Coomera - Helensvale and Airport single track sections severely limits the timetabling options. Any problem on the run from the Coast means significant delays getting to the Airport due to waiting at Airport Junction for the cross, or delaying the inbound service by several minutes at International waiting for the cross. Cutting out the Coomera to Helensvale single track section would enable a lot more flexability in the timetabling options for the Gold Coast and Beenleigh trains.

There currently is no delays at Coomera or Helensvale outside of peak when all is running well. The current cross points are Helensvale - Nerang section (generally around Smith St Motorway overpass) and Ormeau - Beenleigh section (around Eggersdorf Rd).

[somebody]

- The single track section is not a major bottle neck, rather the approaches to the station prior to single track, easily improved by extending the duplication up to 500m or so past the station, maybe even closer to the river ie Helensvale Rd on sth side, Beatie Rd on Nth side.

The only thing that will do is slow the trains down further. As the point speed will be 80km/h, there will be no point in speeding up again from 80 before the station on either end.

Was about to say the same thing, but they could have put in catch points and allowed approaching the station towards the single track section at line speed.

Having both the Coomera - Helensvale and Airport single track sections severely limits the timetabling options. Any problem on the run from the Coast means significant delays getting to the Airport due to waiting at Airport Junction for the cross, or delaying the inbound service by several minutes at International waiting for the cross. Cutting out the Coomera to Helensvale single track section would enable a lot more flexability in the timetabling options for the Gold Coast and Beenleigh trains.

CRR will fix this by changing the line pairings.  If done as currently planned, Gold Coast will actually go nowhere.

And to those that would say so, please don't say that changing the line pairings would be retarded.