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Author Topic: Next Generation Ticketing - Open Payment  (Read 23409 times)

Online ozbob

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Next Generation Ticketing - Open Payment
« on: April 26, 2013, 07:35:09 AM »
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Cubic Transportation ‏@CubicTS 5m

In our latest video CTS President Steve Shewmaker discusses #Tube150 and open payment in London - http://bit.ly/11HUfq6  #transit

« Last Edit: June 20, 2018, 05:26:09 PM by ozbob »
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« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2013, 07:41:05 AM »
Cubic --> An Update on Open Payment

Quote
... Every day in London, 30,000 people get on a bus without enough money on their Oyster® Card.  They either have to pay a higher cash fare, or take the time to reload their card before getting on.  The purpose of open loop payment is to give these travelers an alternative, in addition to making using public transport more convenient for occasional passengers and city visitors ...

This might be the way forward for a paperless environment ...
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Online ozbob

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« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2013, 04:09:19 PM »
Chicago have moved onto an open system ..

Ventra --> http://www.transitchicago.com/ventra/

Quote
Ventra

Starting in 2013, Chicago area transit riders will have a new and more convenient way to pay for rides on CTA and Pace.

Introducing: Ventra.

Ventra is our new payment system that will allow customers to use a single fare card for regional transit throughout the Chicago area. You'll be able to pay for CTA and Pace bus and train rides with the following contactless payment methods:

    Ventra Card, a transit and prepaid debit card that can be used for transit and everyday purchases;
    Ventra Tickets, for single-ride and 1-Day passes; and
    Personal, bank-issued credit or debit cards.

Simply “tap” your payment card at 'L' stations or to board any CTA or Pace bus.

We'll continue offering special fares and multi-day passes, including 30-Day and 7-Day Passes, and will still accept cash on buses. You'll also, eventually, be able to use compatible mobile phones to pay for rides on CTA and Pace.

Ventra will be available to all CTA riders and on Pace’s fixed route buses in the summer of 2013. Ventra will replace CTA and Pace’s existing fare systems in 2014.

Chicago will be the first major U.S. city to adopt an open payment system for transit and speed up boarding.

Ventra will help improve efficiency in several areas of our system. Since nearly all entries to our system will be “tap and go,” that’s less time people will spend waiting in lines at turnstiles and less time buses need to wait while people board and pay. Magnetic cards have helped with this, but still take more time than a contactless transaction does.

Many customers will be able to use the bank cards they already have. There will also be a significant increase in places to purchase or add value to Ventra Cards to purchase fares, which will eliminate long lines of people at vending machines.

The new system is intended to eliminate the multiple magnetic-stripe cards and the Chicago Card/Chicago Card Plus currently used for fare payments. You'll still be able to purchase passes like the 1-day, 3-Day, 7-Day, 30-day and other reduced and free passes. These fare values will be loaded onto the new pre-paid Ventra Cards with cash or tied to existing bank accounts (in order to use your personal credit/debit card, or your NFC, payment-enabled phone).
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Next Generation Ticketing - Open Payment
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2013, 08:52:12 PM »
An open system only works with a fixed fare.  It can't handle variable fares so needs to be more expensive than the most expensive go card bus fare to work for buses.

Offline Get_a_Wriggle_On

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Next Generation Ticketing - Open Payment
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2013, 09:34:02 PM »
I put it to you that implementing an open payment system on the Brisbane system is,
while a great political and business marketing sleight of hand, is likely to be an
absolute cash cow for the supplier, at the public's expense.

The supplier's argument would be that every reader and ticketing machine computer would
require replacing with new ones, so there's a hardware price and a development price
for all that to integrate into a revamped back office system. Very big bucks. See their
withered clawing hand extended...

While ticket office machines and vending machines would already be PCI compliant
(Payment Card Industry security standards) because they have EFTPOS devices, none of the
other QR, bus or ferry equipment would be. Further, both the supplier and Translink are
possibly dead keen for such a tech' upgrade, because it appears the readers and machines
they have now barely cope with the data sets they have.

Of course all that comes down to is lack of competence in prior system and contract
project planning and management, an inescapable pox on Brisbane's public transport
system... just watch how this supplier mob goes in Sydney. Same old commercial tricks, but
I think TfNSW have some smart cookies, and they learned a lot from their Tcard debacle.

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« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2013, 04:21:44 AM »
An open system only works with a fixed fare.  It can't handle variable fares so needs to be more expensive than the most expensive go card bus fare to work for buses.

Good point.  Hard to see how it could work for variable fares ...

Guess we are stuck with paper and mediocrity for a while yet ...  selling pre-loaded go cards on Brisbane Transport buses is unlikely.

The only foreseeable improvement is wider top-up access eg. through EFTPOS ala mobile phone vouchers ...
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Online ozbob

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« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2013, 04:24:30 AM »
...

Of course all that comes down to is lack of competence in prior system and contract
project planning and management, an inescapable pox on Brisbane's public transport
system... just watch how this supplier mob goes in Sydney. Same old commercial tricks, but
I think TfNSW have some smart cookies, and they learned a lot from their Tcard debacle.

Got to agree Mr Wriggle ....  shocker ...
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2013, 04:07:08 AM »
LONDONIST --> One Year On From Contactless Payment, We’re Not Really Using It
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« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2014, 09:16:55 AM »
TfL --> Take part in our contactless payment pilot

Quote
Contactless payment cards have been accepted on London buses since December 2012. From early 2014, you will be able to use them to pay for travel on Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground and some National Rail services.

We're inviting customers to help us test the system before we start accepting contactless payment cards on these services ...

More --> here!
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2014, 05:42:46 AM »
Shanghai.Daily.com --> Get public transport cards on phones
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« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2014, 05:17:06 AM »
airrailNEWS --> Washington Metro awards Accenture major contract for new electronic fare payment system to improve customer experience

Quote
... The $184 million new system will be designed to provide a state of the art system for Metro customers that enables them to continue to use SmarTrip cards, while expanding fare payment to chip-enabled credit cards, federal government ID cards, and mobile phones using near field communications (NFC) ...
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« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2014, 08:25:40 AM »
TfL: Contactless payment is expanding

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Offline #Metro

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« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2014, 08:28:49 AM »
It is a long held view of mine that paper ticket should be abolished systemwide, but importantly, getting paper tickets and ALL cash transactions OFF the buses. Melbourne has already abolished paper ticketing on all buses, but sells Myki on the bus now.

Electronic ticketing to phones is one way of doing this. Many variants of this but one is through texting a phone number (i.e. Stockholm, Sweden does this - NO cash OR cards on the bus). Other systems have apps.

This kind of ticketing is useful for casual and infrequent users such as tourists, visitors and people who sometimes forget their card at home.



http://sl.se/en/Visitor/Tickets/Text-me-a-ticket/
Quote
Text-me-a-ticket

Use Text-me-a-ticket if you don't have a travelcard or another prepaid ticket and need a ticket fast. Works for you who have registered for the service at sl.se/sms (only in Swedish for the time being).

If you want to buy a text message ticket, you send a text message to 076-720 10 10.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2014, 08:37:25 AM by Lapdog Transit »
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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2014, 10:28:04 AM »
I understand open payment options are under consideration for SEQ.
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Offline BrizCommuter

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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2014, 04:58:44 PM »
Many foreign tourists will not have active phones, and it also requires registration. I would also expect that locals who are too lazy to get a go card, would also be too lazy to register. Thus phone ticketing is far from a complete replacement for paper tickets. Throwaway, low cost smart cards such as the MIFARE Ultralight should be seriously looked at.

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« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2014, 03:56:17 AM »
Atlantic Cities --> The Race Is On for the Transit Ticket of Tomorrow
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Offline #Metro

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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2014, 06:57:55 AM »
Buying a plane ticket, driver's licence, bank account, getting a passport or even being born in a hospital requires registration at some point. The Swedes manage to get by with this system, other places do too, the registration is so that you register your payment details so that $$$ can be deducted. And if you want a card because you don't have an active phone (ha, who doesn't have a phone?) you go to the vending machine at the train station or the local newsagent.

Interstate visitors are likely to have active phones, many backpackers bring their phone (some have international roaming), all they need is a SIM card, and they're good to go. Sim cards are what, $2?

http://www.vodafone.com.au/personal/sim-cards/sim-cards/sim-cards-for-international-visitors

It is time to stop nannying people who want to continue to live in the stone age of technology, or are just "too lazy" and expect the entire system to take on enormous costs just because they are "too lazy". Mobile phones came in the 1980s and took off in the 1990s, that is almost 25 years ago! Not hard to walk to a machine and pay money for a card or use the phone as a backup.
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Online ozbob

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« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2014, 03:40:09 AM »
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TfL Ways to Pay ‏@TfLWaystoPay

Another way to pay: Contactless will cost the same as an adult Oyster pay as you go fare. Already works on buses. http://t.co/2FrJmd3akO

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« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2014, 05:33:16 AM »


Media release 20th May 2014

SEQ: Time for a new or upgraded ticketing system

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has said the bizarre fare system in place for south-east Queensland is partly the result of limited options on the present go card system.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The lack of flexible cost effective programming options for the go card has meant that SEQ has ended up with a crazy fare system.  Easily rorted, high base fare cost, and complicated journey caps which confuse many. Fare affordability is tracking along at its lowest levels ever and is the standout failure of all the TransLink KPIs (1). Public transport patronage has stagnated."

"The latest data from TransLink shows that there was an average of 1.97% fixed fares of all go card trips during March 2014, that is every 50 times a go card is used a fixed fare is generated (2). Subsequently only 1 in 15 fixed fares is adjusted. This is further confirmation of a failing system."
 
"Daily caps, differential fare pricing based on touch off times encourages maximum fare box and maximum patronage (3, 4) without the present high cost rorting. These ticketing options are not able to be programmed on the present system apparently.  It is time to move into the next generation of ticketing to include various payment options.  The present fare system is a shambles (5)."

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

References:

1. http://translink.com.au/sites/default/files/assets/resources/about-translink/reporting-and-publications/open-data/2014-mar-snapshot.pdf

2. There were 12.82 adjustments per 10000 trips during March 2014 = 0.13% of all go card trips

This means then that 1.97/0.13 = 15.2 trips,  so for every 15 fixed fares only one on average is being adjusted.

3. The SEQ fare fail http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10048.msg142219#msg142219

4. Free metro travel spreads the peak load http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban/single-view/view/free-metro-travel-spreads-the-peak-load.html

5. 6 May 2014: SEQ: Fare affordability crisis continues ... http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=10701.0
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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2014, 05:36:43 AM »
Quote
Bob, you mentioned a few times earlier in the thread the introduction of a "next generation" fare system. Do you have a source for this? Does it entail replacing the GoCard technology entirely, or perhaps just a firmware upgrade?

G'day Thomas.  No ' official ' source, just piecing together a number of private mentions over the last year or so.   I expect they will probably stick with the go card with upgrades, including open payment options as well.  It could be a new system but less likely.

Clues here --> https://secure.publicworks.qld.gov.au/etender/tender/display/tender-details.do?id=11826&action=display-tender-details

--> http://www.intermedium.com.au/content/account-based-ticketing-system-required-queensland-s-public-transport-users

Quote
...  The Queensland Department of Transport and Main Roads’ (TMR), bus, ferry and rail service coordinator TransLink has given the first hint of the scope of an updated public transport smartcard with the issue of a Request for Quotation (RFQ) for technical advisory services for its Next Generation Ticketing Project (NGTP) ..

Re Tracker and Snapshot data, it is as useless as tits on a bull! Designed to obfuscate IMHO.  Hence our campaign for them to come to clean with the real data ..
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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2014, 06:50:31 AM »
https://secure.publicworks.qld.gov.au/etender/tender/display/tender-details.do?id=11826&action=display-tender-details

Quote
TECHNICAL ADVISOR SERVICES FOR NEXT GENERATION TICKETING PROJECT

Issued by Department of Transport and Main Roads - Passenger Transport
Invitation to Offer
Status:    Closed
Number:    TTA14022
Released:    Wed, 26 Mar 2014 at 4:41PM Brisbane, Queensland
Closed:    Fri, 4 Apr 2014 at 5:00PM Brisbane, Queensland
UNSPSC:    Passenger transport - (100%)
Region/s:    South East Queensland
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Online ozbob

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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2014, 06:52:13 AM »
I used my smart phone for SkyBus (Melbourne) on my last trip to Melbourne.  Worked fine.
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« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2014, 03:24:40 AM »
From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Your phone may replace your Go-Card

Quote
Your phone may replace your Go-Card
Date May 21, 2014 - 12:01AM  Tony Moore

Queensland’s new-generation Go-Card could be a smart phone app which might also be used as a debit card to buy food, drink and magazines at train and bus stations.

That is one option to be explored as Queensland Transport begins to consider the next 10 years of what Queenslanders now know as the “Go-Card”.

This month Queensland Transport called for tenders for experts to design its “Next Generation Ticketing Project”.

Giant US-based public transport and defence contractor Cubic Corporation in July 2006 won a 10-year $225 million contract to develop the Go-Card public transport system in Queensland.

There are now 3 million Go-Cards in Southeast Queensland, accounting for almost 80 per cent of the 700,000 public transport journeys a day.

Queensland Transport now wants to lay the foundations for the next stage of public transport ticketing in an era in which smart-phones are used universally as a personal pocket computer.

Queensland Transport has this month asked for technical advice for the new system, which will replace the existing system in September 2016.

Rail: Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow welcomed the beginning of the new generation of public transport thinking.

“It looks like they are moving ahead with an improved electronic smart card for public transport in South East Queensland,” Mr Dow said. “We think this is a very encouraging sign.”

Mr Dow said it was time the Go-Card was modernised because commuters wanted more from the Cubic contract.

“We think that is related to the fact that they got a very base-level software package with it,” he said.

Mr Dow suggested three restrictions with the Go-Card frustrated Queensland Transport.

The first was “clumsy fare options” including free trips after 10 journeys, which he suggested were inefficient, led to fare leakage and should be replaced by free fares after a “capped daily fare”.

The second was technical problems in directly charging for a Brisbane City Council City Cycle account using the Go-Card, despite Transport Minister Scott Emerson’s efforts in 2013 to start the scheme.

And before that in 2010 Queensland Police conceded they used Go-Card’s electronic tracking abilities to locate people, sparking calls for Queensland Council for Civil Liberties for change.

Mr Dow pointed to examples in Singapore – where a similar smart card is also used as a debit card – and at Brisbane’s Airtrain – where customers simply use a smart phone app to book ahead.

Brisbane Airtrain introduced in February a smart phone app so customers can book an Airtrain to and from Brisbane Airport before they arrived.

Brisbane Airtrain chief executive Chris Basche said they introduced their e-ticket because customers demanded it.

“It is pretty exciting stuff and it is pretty popular with our customers,” he said.

“Our online bookings are now 3.5 per cent and growing,” he said.

“Our research show that a large number of people make decisions about arriving and departing airports in advance.

“And we are providing those customers with the ability to plan their journey in advance.”

Brisbane Airtrain’s e-ticket also comes with a 10 per cent fare discount if it is bought in advance, he said.

“That provides them with a barcode and that barcode is scanned at the airport and at the city,” he said.

The barcode can be on the person’s smartphone, or printed out, he said.

“Yes, you have the ability to have the barcode on your smartphone and then our scanners read that barcode and you are then ticketed.”

Mr Emerson declined to comment.

A spokeswoman said a contractor was being employed to provide early technical advice to Translink on the types of ticketing options that would be part of the contract to go out in 2016.

“Translink will have a team of people who will work on that contract – that tender process – and this is one of the people they need to help with that.”

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/your-phone-may-replace-your-gocard-20140520-zrj78.html
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Online ozbob

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« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2014, 03:38:12 AM »
^ Thanks Brisbanetimes.   :-c
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2014, 06:26:50 AM »
From the Queensland Times 22nd May 2014 pages 1 and 2 ...

GO CARD CHEATS DERAILED





Good work QT!  Front page no less with big pictures!   :-c :-t
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Offline STB

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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2014, 06:54:21 AM »
I do have some concerns re: mobile phone technology to pay for tickets, given that people with low incomes  or who are elderly generally don't buy the smartphones given the high costs of some of them, and I'd hate to be caught out if your battery failed or your phone breaks.  My phone has been out of action for a number of months simply because I can't afford to get it fixed at this stage.

Personally, I'd like to just keep the Go Cards for the time being, just with expanded options for it.

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« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2014, 06:59:20 AM »
That is exactly what will happen STB.  The go card (or new equivalent) will be retained but other options will be available for those so inclined.   Open payment would be particularly useful for visitors/tourists and the like as well.

The press bylines are a bit misleading.

BNE airtrain has a ' E-Ticket ' now, around 3.5% of all trips are using that.  Ticket on smart phone ...  they still have all the other ticket options, paper, go etc.
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Offline BrizCommuter

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« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2014, 12:33:28 PM »
I'm not keen on mobile phone based ticketing, as I would expect that most of those who still use paper tickets, will also not have the appropriate app set up to use this alternative. It is also problematic for tourists and

I still think that better go card functionality is the way forward (e.g. peak/off-peak based on touch off times, zone based capping), as well as single use smart cards cards (go card fare + cost of card which is approx. $0.5).

Use of contactless credit cards (e.g. PayWave) would also be useful, as on London buses, but I'm not sure how this payment method can work with a zone based fare structure (London's buses have one zone).

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« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2014, 12:41:49 PM »
I expect mobile phone ticketing will just be another option.  The base ticket will be the upgraded go card.  I cannot see a new card getting the nod, too expensive to replace all the readers etc.  It will be a software/system upgrade I expect to improve the somewhat limited functionality we have at present.

I have used mobile ticketing for the SkyBus in Melbourne.  Very convenient and straight forward.  It is just another ticketing option.

Quote
Currently TfL and Cubic are working on implementing open loop EMV contactless payment across the entire system including the Underground, national rail stations around London and the trams.  It is a massive undertaking that is targeted to be completed by the end of 2013. This will include adding daily capping and weekly capping features to the open payment program.

http://cts.cubic.com/Publications/CubicBlog/tabid/531/ID/139/An-Update-on-Open-Payment.aspx

Little doubt that paper tickets will go, replaced with a limited use go card equivalent.

It seems problems that we think exist are being overcome.  The government is certainly looking at open payment and fare payment on other platforms as well as the base go card.
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« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2014, 01:20:48 PM »
Transport for London --> Cash free buses

Quote
Instead of cash you can use:

    An Oyster card with pay as you go credit, Travelcard or Bus & Tram Pass
    A Visitor Oyster card
    A contactless payment card to pay as you go
    A Day Travelcard ...

More --> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/modes/buses/cash-free-buses
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« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2014, 08:00:08 PM »
AirRail News --> Smartphones turn passengers into Smartcustomers
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« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2014, 08:01:55 PM »
AirRail News --> Smartphones turn passengers into Smartcustomers
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« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2014, 10:27:34 AM »
Twitter

Robyn Ironside @ironsider

Search starts tomorrow for technology to replace Southeast Qld's go card, Minister Emerson tells estimates hearing. #qldpol

=======================

Twitter

Robyn Ironside @ironsider

Smart phones could be used in place of go cards if technology exists. State Govt about to seek expressions of interest to undertake research

=======================

Twotter

Robyn Ironside @ironsider

Lots of note passing going on among public servants at Transport Committee estimates hearing as Minister grilled over rubbery figures.
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« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2014, 10:34:22 AM »
Couriermail Mail --> Smart card technology may replace go cards
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Online ozbob

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« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2014, 03:45:19 AM »
Brisbanetimes --> Phones may soon be used as Go Cards

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South East Queensland public transport users could soon be using their smart phones as Go Cards.

Transport Minister Scott Emerson said the "next generation ticketing project" would be opened to government tender from Tuesday.

He told the Transport, Housing and Local Government Committee budget estimates hearings that 30 potential respondents had already been identified.

"Given the complicity of the system because SEQ, South East Queensland,  is one of the largest integrated ticketing networks in the world and the significant revenue it collects on behalf of the state, the mobilisation of the project through to delivery needs to be carefully procured and delivered to mitigate failure of any new ticketing options, particularly one of this magnitude," Mr Emerson said.

The current Cubic ticketing system expires in late 2016.  Mr Emerson said he wanted to look towards the future and examine "all of the exciting options out there".

Mr Emerson's estimates appearance also put a figure to the Queensland Rail retrenchment figures - one in every five employees has been let go in the past two years, resulting in about a 20 per cent reduction in staff.

Queensland Rail now has about 5800 full-time equivalent positions.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/phones-may-soon-be-used-as-go-cards-20140715-ztfad.html
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Offline SurfRail

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« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2014, 04:05:36 PM »
We should get on the front foot and push for this to cover all public transport ticketing Statewide (at very least TransLink and all urban bus services outside or adjacent to SEQ).
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« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2014, 05:36:24 PM »
I did an interview on regional ABC (throughout QLD) a few months back re ticketing and options.  Locals will take some convincing mainly because of the fare cost differential between Q connect  (reasonable fares) and SEQ (ripoff), the punters are not silly. It also appears that plans for TransLink to ' take over ' and rebrand Q-connect as TransLink and be integrated have also stalled.  Sound familiar?

Anyone found the e-tender notice yet?
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« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2014, 08:10:19 AM »
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TfL Ways to Pay ‏@TfLWaystoPay

Contactless is expanding. Sign up for our pilot scheme and be one of the first to try it out. https://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/contactless/take-part-in-our-contactless-pilot

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Offline Derwan

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« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2014, 10:30:25 AM »
I wish the media would stop playing up the smart-phone component of next gen ticketing - virtually making it look like you'll NEED a smart phone to use it!

The technology will simply be upgraded.  As part of the upgrade, it is possible that smart phones with NFC will be able to be used as an alternative to using a card - which would be particularly useful for tourists.

There are a number of issues surrounding the upgrade:
  • Will the equipment at stations need to be replaced?
  • Will the old cards still be compatible with the new system?  If not, how do you go about replacing everyone's Go Cards and transferring balances?
I personally think that what we'll see is an upgrade of the technology behind the card... more software-related than hardware.  The current hardware will read any NFC card/device - including smart phones.  It's the software that needs to know what to do with the information.
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« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2014, 10:40:28 AM »
Some of the media is alarming to say the least ...  :yikes:

Base product will be go card or equivalent.  Open payment, smart phones are just options for those so inclined.
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