Centenary RAIL

[#Metro]

Disclaimer: This is a discussion idea only. Thanks


Introduction

The Centenary Suburbs are currently some of the worst public transport black holes in Brisbane. The TransLink Bus Review 2013 would have fixed this by adding BUZ routes and connections to the area, feeding existing rail and also providing a direct bus into the Brisbane CBD.
As one of the proposals within the ICRCS was that a second rail tunnel, after CRR and travelling via West End, would likely be needed to relieve capacity on the Ipswich line. This discussion idea looks at the possibility of sectioning off the Springfield-Richlands line at this point in the future, separating it from the rest of the rail network. As a byproduct of this separation, this discussion idea explores how a Toronto-Style terminate-and-transfer network could be setup in the Centenary Suburbs, principally by using buses to feed rail stations carefully placed at major arterial and sub-arterial cross streets.

The justification for rail and not busway simply is that the rail line will need works to relieve line capacity in the future that is required anyway, and a busway would not achieve this for the rail network. Furthermore, rail is more efficient at moving large volumes of people using less staff than buses and avoids using the monopoly supplier that is BCC.

One of the main disadvantages of the QR rail network as it is now is the poor placement of railway stations on the suburban road grid, which makes it more difficult for buses to get to the station easily without diverting or taking circuitous routes.

This discussion idea could be rolled out in three stages
1. Springfield-Centenary to Taringa Tunnel Portal
2. Taringa to Brisbane CBD
3. Brisbane CBD to New Farm and Bulimba
4. Doomben Line Connection

A number of suburban works remote from the railway line would need to take place, principally:
1. A bridge from Moggill to Riverhills to allow direct bus access to rail
2. Renaming of Indooroopilly station to Indooroopilly Bridge or similar to avoid ambiguity with the new Indooroopilly Station, to be located in close proximity to Indooroopilly Shoppingtown
3. Roadworks at Monier Road to open the road as a direct, cross-suburban road so buses can travel in straight lines across the area and partial road closure of a portion of Seventeen Mile Rocks road

The line is ultimately proposed to terminate at Eagle Junction where passengers could connect for onward journeys. Blue arrows indicate where bus crosses/feeds the line

[colinw]

You forgot stage 0.

0.  Get rid of (or avoid electing) Abbott Coalition Government & elect Federal Government that will not interfere with IA decision making process and will permit Federal investment in transport other than roads.

Otherwise, this thread is very sudsy and utterly pointless.

I doubt I'll see 2nd CRR tunnel in my lifetime, and have severe doubts about the first before I'm a cranky old retiree who is agin everything.

Sorry, feeling very negative at present. Just cannot see a decent public transport future for Brisbane. This hicksville backwater is just too damn regressive for that. Frankly, I agree with the comment SurfRail made a couple of weeks ago about "how manifestly nasty and insular a place Brisbane" is.  I am starting to detest this city & region with an intensity I find hard to believe.

[#Metro]

Stage 1: Springfield-Centenary to Taringa Tunnel Portal

In this stage, the Springfield-Richlands line is separated from the Ipswich line and routed along the Centenary Highway into the Centenary Suburbs. A bridge at Moggill will allow direct access via Riverhills to the rail station, allowing the 444 BUZ service ex Kenmore to be discontinued. This will improve access to both the Brisbane and Ipswich CBDs, not make any assumptions about where people may be going, giving a large freedom of movement and also allow access to Mt Ommaney Shopping Centre for shopping.

At this point a decision will need to be made on whether the line should permanently use surface running on existing tracks between the Taringa and Toowong Stations or whether that should be temporary and ultimately be separated entirely. Click image to enlarge.

[#Metro]

Otherwise, this thread is very sudsy and utterly pointless.

Colin, visionaries ignore lower level practicalities because it allows them to think constraint free and chance upon ideas that may later be made practical by the work of others.

[colinw]

Dream on ... 

[#Metro]

Stage 2. Taringa to Brisbane CBD

In this stage, trains originating at Springfield no longer enter the Ipswich line at Taringa, and are routed under Toowong Station (connection to existing Toowong station) and West End into the CBD. The CBD terminus would be separated so that no interaction with current rail network would occur. This would maximise capacity and allow ultra high frequency in both directions (5 - 10 minutes all day) to be possible. It would also mean no interaction with freight. Click images to enlarge.

[#Metro]

Stage 3: Brisbane CBD to New Farm and Bulimba

[colinw]

Putting aside my grumbling above, I like the way you're thinking, particularly at the Bulimba - Hamilton/Doomben end of things as it kills off the huge detour to get to Doomben.  I presume you're thinking this would result in closure of Eagle Jct - Doomben, or at least it becoming a freight-only route as I cannot see a service via the legacy route being useful if something like you propose was built.

A while ago I made a spreadsheet which plotted the length, timing, number of stations, etc, of all Australian suburban & interurban routes that I could find sufficient data for.  The Doomben came in at the bottom of the table - slowest average speed of any urban rail service in Australia. Even some Melbourne tram routes are faster across the distance.

Although with the number of river crossings, shouldn't this be called cross-cross-cross-cross-cross-cross-river-rail (or CCCCCCRR). 

[somebody]

You forgot stage 0.

0.  Get rid of (or avoid electing) Abbott Coalition Government & elect Federal Government that will not interfere with IA decision making process and will permit Federal investment in transport other than roads.

Otherwise, this thread is very sudsy and utterly pointless.

I doubt I'll see 2nd CRR tunnel in my lifetime, and have severe doubts about the first before I'm a cranky old retiree who is agin everything.

I wouldn't be putting my house on Abbott being elected.  Little is different to last time other than "no carbon tax".  Perhaps that's enough to get him over the line but advertising his negatives like last week doesn't seem good campaigning.

I think the first one will be built before you outline.  Capacity constraints will force it.  I also think Emerson is an ally for CRR, in spite of comments coming from this group.

Sorry, feeling very negative at present. Just cannot see a decent public transport future for Brisbane. This hicksville backwater is just too damn regressive for that. Frankly, I agree with the comment SurfRail made a couple of weeks ago about "how manifestly nasty and insular a place Brisbane" is.  I am starting to detest this city & region with an intensity I find hard to believe.

I have felt that way for years.

[#Metro]

Tony Abbot's Hewson moment??

[Golliwog]

I would have thought getting to Ipswich from Moggill would be easier by extending the 444 (or whatever local route you give them if you want to cut it off from Kenmore) to the Moggill Ferry which is free for walk on passengers, and then is a short 500m walk to Riverview station?

RE: The rail proposal itself, interesting idea, and not bad either. I'd propose adding a secondary portal at Bulimba. I don't think Doomben/Hamilton is going to have enough base population/demographics to support massive PT usage to justify a large number of trains, and the secondary portal would allow Cleveland trains to be sped up/further reduce Merivale bridge congestion.

Otherwise I think the only other suggestion would be to do something about still having a joint Ipswich line/Springfield line station at Darra to allow interchange. Maybe.

[#Metro]

I would have thought getting to Ipswich from Moggill would be easier by extending the 444 (or whatever local route you give them if you want to cut it off from Kenmore) to the Moggill Ferry which is free for walk on passengers, and then is a short 500m walk to Riverview station?

BCC would not allow - crosses BCC boundary, involves transfer to non BCC ferry and trains

[Gazza]

With your proposed line, why not swing south slightly from West End to UQ rather than Taringa and Toowong...Seems a shame to miss it.

[#Metro]

Hi gazza, keen to draw stone stations?
People can catch buses from toowong and indro. This wool be important under connected networkg.
I wanted to keep it straight and fast.

The more I look at the city, the dumber running all these BCC buses to the CBD seems.

[Golliwog]

I would have thought getting to Ipswich from Moggill would be easier by extending the 444 (or whatever local route you give them if you want to cut it off from Kenmore) to the Moggill Ferry which is free for walk on passengers, and then is a short 500m walk to Riverview station?

BCC would not allow - crosses BCC boundary, involves transfer to non BCC ferry and trains

So we're still working in a world where BCC is king?

[Gazza]

But if 412s and 402s are running every 5 mins, with similarly heavy loads on the 109 then clearly there is an economy of scale by moving people on heavy rail in the long term. The university is going to be there for a long time to come, and they'll continue to build up on the campus, so huge potential.
And the fact its the 2nd biggest trip generator outside the CBD.

In terms of stations, it would literally be west end, UQ, indro. Nothing in between....Well, possibly one at the fiveways roundabout where Gailey Rd and Swann Rd and Hawken Drive meet.

No reason why you cant put a curve in the line and make it fast. Have a look at Rockingham Station on the mandurah line. The track is straight on the lead ups, and the platform is straight due to disabled access requirements.

But they've put the curves on the entrance and exit, where the train will be going slow approaching the station anyway:
http://goo.gl/maps/QiPh5

[#Metro]

Id need to see a map of the idea first. Some of TTC' s buses carry 30 000  pax to 50 000 pax trips per day

[#Metro]

Traffic to Uq is like 45 000 per day including car. mode split is about 50% pt

[#Metro]

Ultimately I think uq will get a rail station, but as part of busway replacement at uq lakes to vancouver style light metro. Under a connected network more buses  would go to uq

[Gazza]

Id need to see a map of the idea first. Some of TTC' s buses carry 30 000  pax to 50 000 pax trips per day

Is it efficient to run that many buses in the long term?
Well how many passengers per day would two Centenary BUZes carry?
50,000?

Just dont understand why you'd say Centenary needs a train, but say that UQ doesn't need one.

Id need to see a map of the idea first

Dude, you lived in St Lucia, and know where west end is right? It's not that hard to mentally connect the dots between the nodes, but if you insist 
Because its nice and straight, between the stations you'd be able to hit much higher speeds.
http://imgur.com/wVgZwkR

[somebody]

But if 412s and 402s are running every 5 mins, with similarly heavy loads on the 109 then clearly there is an economy of scale by moving people on heavy rail in the long term. The university is going to be there for a long time to come, and they'll continue to build up on the campus, so huge potential.

109 is not heavily loaded in my experience.

[Golliwog]

Traffic to Uq is like 45 000 per day including car. mode split is about 50% pt

Source?

[Gazza]

But if 412s and 402s are running every 5 mins, with similarly heavy loads on the 109 then clearly there is an economy of scale by moving people on heavy rail in the long term. The university is going to be there for a long time to come, and they'll continue to build up on the campus, so huge potential.

109 is not heavily loaded in my experience.

109 Average patronage is "Very High" according to TL.
That figure would be based upon GoCard date etc , rather than personal anecdotal evidence.

[aldonius]

UQ is a screwy deviation for anything starting south/west of Indro and heading to the CBD (50% extra distance vs surface route).

Better to have the connection via CRR2 going Corinda-UQ-[WestEnd]-SouthBank-CBD - northeast. Although, given the split at Bulimba, there could be a similar split at West End and to Centenary as per original proposal... (I'm getting lost in my own foam now, and having two new tunnels from the SW isn't workable).

[#Metro]

Just catch the bus, works at park road. Already has a busway station. The introduction states what the purpose is.

[Gazza]

UQ is a screwy deviation for anything starting south/west of Indro and heading to the CBD (50% extra distance vs surface route).

Better to have the connection via CRR2 going Corinda-UQ-[WestEnd]-SouthBank-CBD - northeast. Although, given the split at Bulimba, there could be a similar split at West End and to Centenary as per original proposal... (I'm getting lost in my own foam now, and having two new tunnels from the SW isn't workable).

The difference between my and Lapdogs options is about 1.5km, at 80km/h that's around a minute of extra travel time, for a station that would undoubtedly become one of the busiest in the network. Totally worth the tradeoff, especially since if this line were eventually segregated, it would run driverless, and that is cheaper to get large numbers to UQ compared to running heaps and heaps of buses.

Also, I think its a bit unfair to have this new line duplicating the existing line at Taringa and Toowong...Kinda like a rail version of Maroon Cityglider.
Better to send it to a new area, like UQ.

This is why CRR goes via Woolloongabba, rather than just going via south Brisbane. If you are going to spend the money, value capture new markets on the way.

Just catch the bus, works at park road.

From Park Rd it's class A.

What, so you've never seen my media releases and pics of the random congestion that happens on Sr Fred Schonell Drive.
And the trip from Indooroopilly is winding and quite hilly to UQ. A train would just cut straight under that in 3 or so minutes.

The introduction states what the purpose is.

Ok ill reread what you wrote:

Furthermore, rail is more efficient at moving large volumes of people using less staff than buses and avoids using the monopoly supplier that is BCC

So why not apply this logic to UQ???

3. Roadworks at Monier Road to open the road as a direct, cross-suburban road so buses can travel in straight lines across the area and partial road closure of a portion of Seventeen Mile Rocks road

That intersection is very close to me, I drive it quite option. I think they have it that way for a reason due to being a safer arrangement. (In the past monier rd went straight through)
Even in the car, its not a noticeable deviation IMO.

[somebody]

109 Average patronage is "Very High" according to TL.
That figure would be based upon GoCard date etc , rather than personal anecdotal evidence.

I had trouble finding a reference for the definitions of what "Very High" patronage is.  I posted them on the forum here.

It seems that it makes the grade if it has standing loads 5 times per week OR 5% of trips.  Hardly a particularly high bar.  I'd say that it's actually a pretty meaningless statistic.  Passenger-km isn't particularly high at a bit under 5mil p.a.  A bit under 1/4 of the 111, which has a 24 minute running time vs 15 for the 109.

[BrizCommuter]

Sorry, feeling very negative at present. Just cannot see a decent public transport future for Brisbane. This hicksville backwater is just too damn regressive for that. Frankly, I agree with the comment SurfRail made a couple of weeks ago about "how manifestly nasty and insular a place Brisbane" is.  I am starting to detest this city & region with an intensity I find hard to believe.

+1

[SurfRail]

Queensland isn't bankrupt, and wouldn't be if it borrowed $5bn to complete CRR. 

It is just politically unwise for them seeing how their entire narrative has been about the evils of public sector debt.

The issues most of us are currently fixated on are governance related rather than planning and infrastructure (and I think you have posted more or less the same thing, ie BCC should get out of the bus game).

[James]

As a resident of St Lucia, I see sending a rail line via UQ essential at one point in time. Whether it be a metro-like system connecting Indooroopilly and Park Road/Buranda with UQ or another railway tunnel going through UQ, it's necessary. However, I very much like the concept being put forward here Lapdog, combined with the possible concept of the train being routed via UQ. Long-term, Swann Road/Hawken Drive + Sir Fred Schonell Drive can't have buses thrown at them forever. Sooner or later both will turn into carparks. For the latter it's already happening.

My favourite is the rail line to the Centenary suburbs. Originally I was thinking a busway would become essential for some of the regions of the western suburbs - with this railway line, I don't think it would be necessary.

On the note of a Moggill Green bridge, I think a bridge solely for buses would be a waste unless serious population growth occurred in those areas though. The only bus-only bridge in Brisbane is the Eleanor Schonell Bridge, and it's being used very well for obvious reasons. This bridge would be lucky to get anything more than 10bph in peak. That area will remain sparsely populated for a long time due to poor transit links and its remoteness, not to mention the nature of the terrain out there - lots of hills and gullies which make development out there and expansion of Moggill Road difficult. Not to mention large swathes of the suburb being flood plain/subject to being cut off in floods etc.

[somebody]

All the states have these grandiose pie in the sky mega transport plans, not hard to do. What they lack is the method to fund them with sticking their hands out to the feds for up to 80% of the project which is completely un reasonable. Feds (both sides) have provided funds to upgrade the interstate and a few other core routes, but how much should we expect them to fund commuter rail? The states need to find other ways that don't involve bankruptcy.

And what have the feds done about the states limited ability to raise revenue?  If anything, they've sought to make it even harder overall.  Kevin Rudd had a reasonable plan to take over health, but thought he didn't want to implement it once elected  .

To sum up, I disagree that it is unreasonable to put out their hands to the feds for almost everything.  It's the only possible way of getting anything funded, unless you count hoodwinking private investors to contribute to uneconomic projects a la Airportlink etc.

Queensland isn't bankrupt, and wouldn't be if it borrowed $5bn to complete CRR. 

Although that $5bn may knock its credit rating back.

[#Metro]

I'm not sure about a deviation via UQ. I'll leave that question to the engineers scoping team. The advantage is that yes there is a train to UQ, the disadvantage is it is a deviation, deviations add time, add cost (1.5 km tunnel = 400 million or so?), and there already is a busway there, something that Centenary suburbs don't have and one can use buses. I can see some good points that Gazza has made, but I just feel unnerved about it, and I think that's fair enough to say that. I think it is also more than fair to expect maps of proposals, especially when others do this and think that I don't have to feel bad for asking for that.

I don't really mind so much about what the line does beyond Toowong, the main part for me is the Centenary Suburbs section, as that's a real breakthrough for access in that area. I think the stations within Centenary are generally agreed upon.

The statistics for UQ traffic volumes are derived from this article source: http://www.gpem.uq.edu.au/green-transport-infrastructure-143214

The results put the Campus population at almost 22,000 on a weekday in the middle of second semester 2011, up by 27 per cent on the figure of 17,140 recorded in a similar survey in 2002.

Using the highly sophisticated mathematical transport model  of:

(assuming everyone lives off campus and goes to UQ and goes home again at the end of the day, not an unreasonable assumption):

22 000 x 2 = 44 000 trips

The operating statistics from the Toronto Transit Commission website 2011 are here http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Operating_Statistics/2011.jsp

Busiest Bus and Streetcar Routes
(Estimated daily usage on average business day)

504 King (streetcar): 56,700
510 Spadina (streetcar): 43,800
501 Queen (streetcar): 43,500
25 Don Mills (bus): 41,800
32 Eglinton West (bus): 41,600
39 Finch East (bus): 41,400
506 Carlton (streetcar): 40,900
35 Jane (bus): 40,700
29 Dufferin (bus): 39,700
36 Finch West (bus): 38,100

As you can see, single tram and bog standard bus routes carry the ENTIRE VOLUME of UQ on one bus route or tram line running in worst class C ROW. And these are not on busways, not separated etc etc. The 510 Spadina Streetcar is also a terminate-and-transfer service that dives under spadina avenue to meet the TTC subway station and terminates in a loop to feed the station with passengers.

One issue I will raise with the UQ deviation is rail-rail interchange between the Springfield-via-Centenary line and the Ipswich line to allow access to the Milton area office parks where a lot of people work. I'd rather be parochial here and keep them off BCC BT buses. It's faster and more reliable as well if they had a way to do train-train interchange.

[#Metro]

On the note of a Moggill Green bridge, I think a bridge solely for buses would be a waste unless serious population growth occurred in those areas though. The only bus-only bridge in Brisbane is the Eleanor Schonell Bridge, and it's being used very well for obvious reasons. This bridge would be lucky to get anything more than 10bph in peak. That area will remain sparsely populated for a long time due to poor transit links and its remoteness, not to mention the nature of the terrain out there - lots of hills and gullies which make development out there and expansion of Moggill Road difficult. Not to mention large swathes of the suburb being flood plain/subject to being cut off in floods etc.

In jest, perhaps we make it a BMW only bridge 

[#Metro]

And just for members' viewing pleasure:

Spadina Streetcar

Don Mills Bus

[colinw]

All the states have these grandiose pie in the sky mega transport plans, not hard to do. What they lack is the method to fund them with sticking their hands out to the feds for up to 80% of the project which is completely un reasonable. Feds (both sides) have provided funds to upgrade the interstate and a few other core routes, but how much should we expect them to fund commuter rail? The states need to find other ways that don't involve bankruptcy.

I find that position illogical, given the so called "vertical fiscal imbalance", i.e. the fact that the Federal Government has the majority of revenue raising capability, but the State Governments are called on to provide most of the on-the-ground services.

What you are supporting is a continuation of the system of funding & responsibilities that has resulted in the basket-case situation we now find ourselves in.

[colinw]

Getting somewhat back on track with this thread, while I support rail to UQ I think it makes more sense for it to be a dedicated route (e.g. City - West End - UQ - Indooroopilly), rather than by deviating a longer commuter route.

As such I think LD's Centenary scheme is best left as proposed, and a separate "UQ Metro" or light metro discussed.

[#Metro]

Schedule for the Don Mills 25 bus is here http://ttc.ca/Schedule/schedule.jsp?Route=25N&Stop=n.b._on_DON_MILLS_at_EGLINTON_NORTH_SIDE
TTC has announced that bus services will be increased from every 6 minutes and 40 seconds to every 6 minutes. http://ttc.ca/Service_Advisories/Service_changes/mar25.jsp

[#Metro]

As such I think LD's Centenary scheme is best left as proposed, and a separate "UQ Metro" or light metro discussed.

I think there is merit in what Gazza is saying, but it is something that would need to be looked at and weighed. I think buses are capable and a T2 lane would cut the congestion and reliability issues. I'm happy to advance both proposals and the alterative involving UQ.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I love a good flooded railway tunnel.

[Golliwog]

Lapdog, when I asked for a source, I meant for the 50% by car claim. The article you linked to (http://www.gpem.uq.edu.au/green-transport-infrastructure-143214) also stated,

It was discovered that more than 10,000 people, many of whom would have previously traveled to campus by car, now cross the Eleanor Schonell Bridge each weekday by bus, on foot, or by bike.

So that's nearly half the uni population there, without even looking at those who get to campus via the Chancellor's Place buses, or the Citycat, or walking/cycling from anywhere other than across the Green Bridge. I struggle to believe the 50% get to UQ via car.