Brisbane BCC Bus Network Review

[#Metro]

Privatise, Privatise!!

[ozbob]

From the South West News 1st May 2013 page 5

Rally fights bus change

[hU0N]

Changes come to everything in the end I guess.

My first bus memories (around 4 years old, bit younger) were of riding on the Blue Ventura buses down Warrigul Road Burwood to Oakleigh railway station with my Grandfather ...

I expect there will be more competitive franchising on all networks ..

Metro obviously put together a good plan to get the Melbourne nod, so must have Transdev ...

The notion just occurred to me that I have been doing ' transfers'  on PT nearly all my life ...

Hasn't effected me one little bit ...   

Put that in your pipe and smoke it Quirky!!

There never has been anything wrong with transfers. Try telling all the uni students that transfer at Park Rd or one of the busway stations onto one of the xx9 services that what they're doing is somehow difficult (or those catching the 412 from Toowong or the 427/428/432 from Indro). The only thing that makes transfers unpopular is when the connection isn't timed properly, or when one leg runs much more frequently than the other.

That's not entirely true.  Transfers have never been impossible, or even difficult.  But transferring has always been less popular with passengers than not transferring.  What is more popular, the 6:47 thru service from Rosewood, or the 7:05 shuttle?  Both take the exact same amount of time to get to the city, but one has transfer and one does not.  The thing that makes transferring unpopular isn't the transfer arrangements.  The thing that makes transfers unpopular is the transfer itself.  Transfer arrangements can make an unpopular thing even more unpopular, but many people have studied transfers and come to the conclusion that, even with perfect arrangements in place, a transfer has about the same impact on service popularity as an unexplained 10min delay during your journey.

Uni students seem to put up with transfers, and that shouldn't be surprising.  They are transit dependant, which means that their next best option is walking, which, for most students, simply doesn't compare.

None of this is to suggest that transfers have no place in a network.  They do.  But we all need to be realistic about them.  People will transfer.  Or at least those with no better option will transfer.  But it needs to be recognised that transfers do drive people away from transit and into cars if they have them.  So transfers should be used judiciously, where the negative effect they have on a particular route is outweighed by the benefit the transfer brings to the network as a whole.

What is pointless is to deny the obvious and measurable disadvantages that transfers have.  You might as well complain that people refuse to all call the colour of the sky "green".

[#Metro]

Do you have comments about Toronto's system in relation to transfers?
98% of buses/streetcars run to train stations, few services enter the city.

http://crazedmonkey.com/toronto-transit-map/

[ozbob]

If I had a 15 minute bus taking me to a rail station with trains every 15 minutes to my destination, as opposed to a single seat journey every hour or two to my destination, I know what I prefer thanks.

It is no-brainer that people prefer no transfers, the reality is though it is not achievable for all, and as a network matures transfers become more common. 

[techblitz]

Some good recent posts on tansferring
Huon and goli both have very valid points.

[hU0N]

If I had a 15 minute bus taking me to a rail station with trains every 15 minutes to my destination, as opposed to a single seat journey every hour or two to my destination, I know what I prefer thanks.

It is no-brainer that people prefer no transfers, the reality is though it is not achievable for all, and as a network matures transfers become more common.

Exactly.  Adding a transfer can add both a negative and a positive to the network.  Perth is a great example.  Converting large swathes of the bus network into feeder operation has resulted in flat growth in bus passenger numbers on the feeder network and declining efficiency of the network (ie rising operating cost per passenger km).  This is undoubtedly a negative.

However, it has also concentrated passengers onto the railway lines, justifying an increase in frequency, which has in turn sparked spectacular growth in train passenger numbers (largely supported by adequate parking facilities at train stations).  Without the introduction of transfers this wouldn't have happened, and the benefit of it almost undoubtedly fully offsets the flat growth and declining efficiency of the buses.  So that's a win for transfers.

Plenty of transfers elsewhere are poorly thought through (everywhere in Brisbane for example).  So all you get is the downside, and the upside never materialises.  That makes me very suspicious of newly proposed transfers, because they often seem to have no particular idea of how they will make the network better.

[somebody]

One paper suggests a transfer is worth 17 minutes of in vehicle time IIRC.

[#Metro]

When talking about convenience, one has to give regard to passengers, but also potential passengers elsewhere. Opportunity costs.

For example, it's all nice and well that route 161 Paris Hilton Rocket users, , get this wonderful rocket boost all the way into the CBD, but the bus was cut to a busway node, then passengers would have to transfer.

However, $$$ would be freed up for other passengers in the city who are currently inconvenienced by the lack of service or frequency in their area. The money spent on said rocket could be spent on extending the 196 Fairfield into Yeronga, relieving pax who only get an HOURLY bus service during the day.

[techblitz]

Darra,richlands,petrie,oxley,ferny grove feeders. 462,466,465,686,683,681,104,676,677,367,398,397,396

One word FAIL!

The only routes of any use are the 687 & 680 and 460

Virtually No-one connects at moorooka rail or salisbury.
no brainer there as to why.EASE OF ACCESS to the station.
Htg.....how many people are connecting at northside stations? They probably dont trust the reliability of buses due to that mess called gympie rd which can see a bus arrive ontime or 10mins late all with the luck of the trafic lights.

Quite easy to point the finger at fares but there are so many other intricate workings which turn customers away from transferring at rail.

[ozbob]

Fail basically because of poor frequency and span, missed connections, long waits.  Other jurisdictions do sort these issues out, not here.

Transfer rate around Brisbane is said to be around 20%.  Be interesting to know what the rate is outside Brisbane.

The proposed HF25 would have been interesting, guess we will never know now, well at least until the competitive tendering processes are sorted ...   

[techblitz]

One paper suggests a transfer is worth 17 minutes of in vehicle time IIRC.

Take a look at north lakes

It currently takes 30 mins just to get to petrie rail.
Think where 30 mins can get you in a vehicle heading direct towards the city.

Ps: intersting stat: a whopping 2.2% of households dont own a vehiclein northlakes 

[techblitz]

Fail basically because of poor frequency and span, missed connections, long waits.  Other jurisdictions do sort these issues out, not here.

Transfer rate around Brisbane is said to be around 20%.  Be interesting to know what the rate is outside Brisbane.

The proposed HF25 would have been interesting, guess we will never know now, well at least until the competitive tendering processes are sorted ...   

It would have done decently due to the mt ommaney plaza factor. Being a major shopping centre would have helped enormously.As for people transferring into rail from inala,forest lake at peak.
They would have used the secondaries for that precious one seat trip into the city!

[Gazza]

Transferring done right.

Time taken....30 seconds.

[SurfRail]

One paper suggests a transfer is worth 17 minutes of in vehicle time IIRC.

Take a look at north lakes

It currently takes 30 mins just to get to petrie rail.
Think where 30 mins can get you in a vehicle heading direct towards the city.

Ps: intersting stat: a whopping 2.2% of households dont own a vehiclein northlakes 

The 680 and 687 regularly leave people behind at Petrie.

[James]

Darra,richlands,petrie,oxley,ferny grove feeders. 462,466,465,686,683,681,104,676,677,367,398,397,396

One word FAIL!

The only routes of any use are the 687 & 680 and 460

Virtually No-one connects at moorooka rail or salisbury.
no brainer there as to why.EASE OF ACCESS to the station.
Htg.....how many people are connecting at northside stations? They probably dont trust the reliability of buses due to that mess called gympie rd which can see a bus arrive ontime or 10mins late all with the luck of the trafic lights.

Quite easy to point the finger at fares but there are so many other intricate workings which turn customers away from transferring at rail.

The reason why nobody uses rail feeders in this city is because:
1. Where there is a rail feeder, there is generally either a station carpark nearby or a bus route that goes to the city.
Example: 460 vs. 465. Catch a half-hourly bus which goes directly to the CBD, or catch an hourly rail feeder bus.
2. Poor frequency and legibility - I'm looking at you, Ferny Grove line feeders. All they do is dilly-dally in the suburbs, operate on hourly frequency and end at 6pm. Useless.
3. Station safety - this is a big one, yet at the same time is difficult to solve. It would help encourage transfers if Brisbane's railway stations had decent interchange facilities and didn't turn into ghettos at night.
4. POOR RAILWAY FREQUENCY. In my opinion, no bus review should have been conducted until 15 minute 6am-11pm services were introduced 7 days a week to all railway lines (aside from Doomben, Richlands and where track restrictions exist e.g. outer Beenleigh). Without frequent rail, you can't have frequent feeders, and so in order for a route to have any decent patronage, it must go frequently all the way to the CBD.

Nobody changes to rail at Moorooka or Rocklea because the station is uninviting, interchange facilities are appalling, frequency is dismal and for the former, there's the 100 BUZ just across the road. Yes, transferring is a hard sell, especially as you get further into the CBD - but by doing so, frequency and time savings can be achieved thanks to the speed of rail/busway.

[somebody]

Transferring done right.

Time taken....30 seconds.

In that instance.  How often is the coordination that perfect?  Even at Richmond, Vic transferring from Glen Waverley trains to via Camberwell trains, it isn't that good.

[HappyTrainGuy]

One paper suggests a transfer is worth 17 minutes of in vehicle time IIRC.

Take a look at north lakes

It currently takes 30 mins just to get to petrie rail.
Think where 30 mins can get you in a vehicle heading direct towards the city.

Ps: intersting stat: a whopping 2.2% of households dont own a vehiclein northlakes 

The 680 and 687 regularly leave people behind at Petrie.

It's more than regularly during peak hour especially on the outbound arvo peak services

30 mins from North Lakes usually gets you to Strathpine in peak hour if there aren't any big delays/crashes etc. Off peak you are pretty much at Chermside.

[techblitz]

Currntly on a 690 inbound and bus is nearly full!
Not bad for a counter peak service eh?
This route is VERY good example of how to feed rail as there are virtually no competing routes and the route is a long one with exensive coverage.Near 60 mins from kalangur to sandgate.
Outer suburb operators really do need to look into thier rail feeders and yes that includes BT.

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Council clashes over bus tendering

Council clashes over bus tendering
May 8, 2013 - 12:01AM

Tony Moore

The impact of the Newman Government's decision to change the way Brisbane's bus services are run drew a fiery response from councillors last night.

While Labor fears the outcome will be job losses for bus drivers, the LNP's council administration said they welcomed being asked to re-tender for bus routes.

Labor's opposition leader Milton Dick accused lord mayor Graham Quirk of using "weasel words", while the LNP accused Labor of misunderstanding the difference between privatisation and competitive tendering.

In its third Commission of Audit Report last week, the Newman Government has decided to introduce "competitive tendering" for bus service contracts throughout Queensland.

In southeast Queensland, competitive tendering for buses already operates to a degree, with 17 bus operators - 16 private operators and Brisbane Transport - winning contracts over geographical bus runs.

The state government now wants to review the process Queensland-wide to search for cost-efficiencies, the Commission of Audit report made clear last week.

Labor's opposition leader Milton Dick last night said the "uncertainty" over Brisbane bus services was the major concern for bus commuters.

"There is no more important issue for Brisbane bus commuters than certainty," he said.

"Certainty that the buses across our city, that the public transport network, will survive the axe of the Newman Government."

He accused the state government of always having a long-term plan to privatise many services across Queensland.

"Now we know for a fact that they have plans to privatise public transport for this city," he said.

Cr Dick used a motion he lodged on the council agenda last night to speak on the issue.

He repeated the anti-privatisation words of lord mayor Graham Quirk on March 5, 2013 about Council's bus fleet.

"I took the lord mayor at his word when he said on March 5, 'I do not support the privatisation of Brisbane Transport and I will not support the privatisation of buses'," he said.

"And he has also said 'I have held a consistent position that I do not support the privatisation of Brisbane's bus fleet'."

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk was not in the chamber when the debate took place.

Public Transport committee chairman Peter Matic said Brisbane Transport had won public transport contracts through competitive tendering since 2001.

"All of these things Cr Dick fails to acknowledge," he said.

"Why? Because it doesn't help his political argument and it doesn't help his pre-selection for federal government and it certainly doesn't help develop anything they had in a productive way in this chamber."

The motion was lost 19 to 8 with Cr Nicole Johnston voting with Labor.

The final version of Brisbane City Council's bus review will be known in a fortnight.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/council-clashes-over-bus-tendering-20130507-2j5z5.html#ixzz2Sd6mnC6k

[ozbob]

... Public Transport committee chairman Peter Matic said Brisbane Transport had won public transport contracts through competitive tendering since 2001 ...

Contracts yes, competitive tendering no ...

I can hear bus motors starting up all over Oz ...

[ozbob]

Vrooooooooommmmmmm ....

From the Brisbane mX 9th May 2013 page 5

Bus costs to be curbed

[somebody]

Vrooooooooommmmmmm ....

From the Brisbane mX 9th May 2013 page 5

Bus costs to be curbed

Are they kidding?  Why are they complaining about a problem of their creation?

[minbrisbane]

But it's not broken...  it says in the article that they're reviewing still? 

What joke is this?  How can they possibly expect to save $200M by that time comes around.  By way of their review?  Ha! 

[ozbob]

No need for ' cuts only '  ....

just redeploy resources into a connected network, more HF, more pax, more services overall, better connections, better fare box ...   Oh, wait ...

[nathandavid88]

So the bus network "isn't broken", but the rising cost of running Brisbane's buses is "not sustainable". Which is it Lord Mayor? Broken or not?

[HappyTrainGuy]

One would hope that would mean that the small minor bus stops will stop being refurbished eg the ones a hundred metres or so past the 310/315 stops that were upgraded with cement bays and tactile gripping on Sandgate road which no Translink routes even use...

[hU0N]

^^^ But what it probably means is more of the strategies outlined in the BCC draft review, namely prioritising coverage above all else and finding savings primarily by cutting frequency on popular routes.

[#Metro]

^^^ But what it probably means is more of the strategies outlined in the BCC draft review, namely prioritising coverage above all else

Great, just what we need, even MORE CSO (Community Service Obligation) routing. This is actually taking us further away from the goal of increasing the coverage of the rapid transit component. Basic network issues all remain (high cost, overlap, CC congestion, duplication)

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

11th May 2013

Brisbane Transport Bus cost explosion 'not sustainable' says Lord Mayor Quirk

Greetings

A short article appeared the Brisbane mX 9th May 2013 page 5. ' Bus costs to be curbed '

It was interesting comment from the Lord Mayor of Brisbane.  Acknowledgment that the Brisbane Transport Bus network is ' not sustainable and savings must be found '.

Lord Mayor directly quoted as " That growth in subsidy is not sustainable and so we have a responsibility at council office to get costs down .. "

"You can't have runaway costs on one side of the ledger and keep the increase in fares down "

Exactly why the Minister for Transport tasked TransLink to review the network.

The Lord Mayor now appears to concede that the BCC bus network is broken. Compared to the TransLink review, which was revenue-neutral, the BCC Bus review fails to deliver a total of 26 BUZ routes across the city. Indeed, there is not one new BUZ in the BCC's plan.

The BCC has just demonstrated that it is impossible to increase high frequency coverage across Brisbane, reduce cost and run a direct service network at the same time.

A network based on connections and interchange will increase high frequency coverage without increasing expenditure as was demonstrated in the TransLink review.

Sadly we are to continue with a failing public transport network, basically because BCC failed to cooperate with TransLink in doing the proper bus review.  Sad times for south-east Queensland.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org


Brisbane mX 9th May 2013 page 5  http://backontrack.org/docs/mx/mx_9may13_p5.jpg

[Gazza]

^^^ But what it probably means is more of the strategies outlined in the BCC draft review, namely prioritising coverage above all else and finding savings primarily by cutting frequency on popular routes.

Isnt it a clue that the CSO type routes should be the ones feederised at the very least?
No need to worry about trashing patronage, because theres no patronage to trash to begin with!

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Commuters have their say on bus changes

Commuters have their say on bus changes
May 11, 2013 Tony Moore

More than 1300 individual submissions have been received from bus commuters since council began its review of city bus routes.

Nine routes will be removed and changes will be made to 80 bus services, including 46 changes to timetables, Lord Mayor Graham Quirk announced late last month.

Since then people have accessed the proposed changes to the 235 bus routes more than 61,200 times online, with most people interested in changes to the Maroon CityGlider service.

The pre-paid Maroon CityGlider service - a link between Milton and Coorparoo - will replace the P374 Paddington to City pre-paid service, which will be scrapped.

That page has been most-viewed by commuters with 2826 page views since April 23.

Many commuters are also interested in plans to cut services from the Carindale to city link and simplify the existing services.

Council plans to scrap the 7:16am, 7:43am, 7:57am, 8:25am and 8:30am services leaving Old Cleveland Road at Carina and replace them with extra BUZ routes along the Old Cleveland Road route to Roma Street.

More 2300 commuters are also interested in changes to Route 66, which will be amalgamated with the Route 109 to run from the bus stop at the University of Queensland Lakes bus stop to the Royal Brisbane Women's Hospital.

Joining these two routes into one seven-day a week service, council aims to take buses off the congested Victoria Bridge - one of the key recommendations of the review.

Commuters are also interested in the decision to remove the pre-paid P88 bus service which runs in from Eight Mile Plains to the city and then to Indooroopilly.

It will be replaced by a new peak "rocket" bus P163, operating from Eight Mile Plains to Roma Street.

Brisbane City Council plans this new service will operate every 10 minutes between 6:20am and 8:20am inbound and between 3:40pm and 5:40pm outbound.

A further 200 bus commuters have identified other routes they want addressed outside of the routes identified in Brisbane City Council's first draft released on April 22.

Submissions close on May 20.

The final proposal will be given to Transport Minister Scott Emerson by June 1.

Council estimates 68 per cent of commuters travel on routes that will not be changed.

Labor's Opposition leader Milton Dick believes that changes to the proposals in the Forest Lake, Durack and Inala area are needed.

Cr Quirk says the changes that have already been proposed reduce the duplication in bus runs and re-uses previously "empty-run" buses to provide services to areas where buses did not run.

[#Metro]

Couldn't help but notice the irony

1. BCC Website
2. Searching on the Paris Hilton 161 Rocket - epitome of waste
3. Ads for Mayoral Car-Fest in the corner (haven't we had enough failed toll roads yet? Clearly not)

Shows you where the priorities really are.
Dysfunction, Dysfunction, Dysfunction...

[hU0N]

^^^ But what it probably means is more of the strategies outlined in the BCC draft review, namely prioritising coverage above all else and finding savings primarily by cutting frequency on popular routes.

Isnt it a clue that the CSO type routes should be the ones feederised at the very least?
No need to worry about trashing patronage, because theres no patronage to trash to begin with!

Couldn't agree more.

[ozbob]

From the South West News 15th May 2013 page 7

Have a say on bus changes

[techblitz]

with all the success of the richlands rail line over the past year......yet the epic failure of the bus feeders from springfield/heathwood into richlands....i can positively say that feeding rail with bus services from high vehicle reliant suburbs around this entire region needs to be taken with caution.
Kallangur/murrumba downs/griffin is also currently suffering the same fate with its feeders into petrie.

The first move has already been made by BT in deleting routes and streamlining the richlands area......now QR needs to get its butt into gear and arrange more commuter parking for ALL rail stations in this region.
Just a small parked out alotment of 50 spaces takes 18000+ vehicles off the citybound roads each year and puts them onto trains.More dough for the QR money machine.

Might be time to get some more PR`s out about the success of richlands rail car parking and patronage increases over the last 12 months and push for more car parks instead of pushing for Bus services that only a handful of people will use.

[ozbob]

Disagree, the basic reason is the poor frequency and span of the feeders.  The proposed HF25 was a serious attempt to turn the paradigm.  Alas, more mediocrity is to continue .. and infact in a number of cases the BCC review is just making it even more difficult to get to and from the station.

It is a stupid strawman argument.  Put on a feeder bus, run it with a poor span and frequency, cut it because not many can use it.

Parking is already a nightmare at Richlands, Darra, Gailes, Goodna and Wacol for example.  Infinite expansion of park and ride is absurd ... congestion is worsening on Centenary, even getting back to Richlands, soon will expand further south,  Ipswich highway is a mess Darra in and getting worse as well.

I personally have supported some park and ride expansion where it is really needed eg. Springfield Central, but unless some serious attempt is made to properly support feeders, residents will continue to drive and contribute to the overall road congestion.

My own local bus (524) is 30 minute peak, hourly off peak.  It is very well used though both as local transport and feeder to/from Goodna rail.  Just imagine how much better it would be doubled in frequency ... 

[ozbob]

It is also worth noting that park and ride at Richlands has been full since services commenced (Jan 2011).  The growth in patronage has actually been in bus passengers transferring in the main.  The 535 bus, despite its limited span and frequency has also helped.  We pushed hard for the 535 and it took a year or so after the line to Richlands opened for it to be implemented.  Part of the problem for the delay was BCC.  They wouldn't cooperate and initially Westside was not equipped to do it, but fortunately TransLink was eventually able to progress it with Westside despite BCC.

Bring on competitive tendering!!

[HappyTrainGuy]

It is a stupid strawman argument.  Put on a feeder bus, run it with a poor span and frequency, cut it because not many can use it.

Long live the 336/337. You want to get to the local train station, to the local bus interchanges, to the local shopping complexes or connect to and from 4 Buz routes during peak hour? NOT IN THIS LIFETIME!!!

[techblitz]

You will have to do a harder sell on the springfield/goodna feeders  ...translink says they are all low patronage

ps: with the 466...the majority of pax embark/disembark between richlands & inala...they love that QUICK transfer to the rail line.A key factor for feeders to truly succeed.High density population...close to the railway line.