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Author Topic: Simon's fare system  (Read 3851 times)

somebody

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Simon's fare system
« on: February 20, 2013, 10:39:16 AM »
Fare Structure

Stick with zonal - fix up anomalies - suggest Auchenflower goes to zone 1/2, probably some others.

Fare Products

I suppose stick with Senior's+ card, SEEQ card on the grounds that there is no compelling reason to remove them.

Keep Translink access Pass.

The rest - go card only.  Remove paper.

I'll allow free travel after 3 journeys per day on the grounds of popularity.

Concessions

Allow Health care cardholders to access concession prices, otherwise as present.

Levels

Peak adult one zone fare = $1.50, add 60c per zone up to 9 zones.  Add $1.20 per zone after that.

Off peak

50% discount.  Early touch ons at given stations such that you would arrive in the CBD before 7am get off peak.  Details would need to be sorted out.

Off peak starts in the evening at 6pm.

Deposit

Raise to $15.  No need to adjust earlier issued cards.

On Buses

Sell go cards with a $1 fee - For $20 you can get a go card with $4 credit or $50 one with $34

Top up for a 50c fee.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2013, 10:50:46 AM »
What's the reasoning with the deposit?  Can't see this working for buses.
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somebody

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2013, 10:56:30 AM »
What's the reasoning with the deposit?  Can't see this working for buses.
It's currently too attractive to buy two go cards per day for some people.  Or at least throw go cards away when they get to $-10 balance.  $15 would cover most people's journeys, including to Nambour and Varsity Lakes.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2013, 12:25:46 PM »
Make it $10.00 and I think it's fine.

I'd scrap SEEQ seeing it serves no useful purpose I can see.  I think the usage figures will be fairly damning.

Not sure exactly on how airport ticket reselling works, but I'd want to make sure Airtrain is go card only as well.
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somebody

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2013, 12:29:14 PM »
Make it $10.00 and I think it's fine.

I'd scrap SEEQ seeing it serves no useful purpose I can see.  I think the usage figures will be fairly damning.

Not sure exactly on how airport ticket reselling works, but I'd want to make sure Airtrain is go card only as well.
$10 is an improvement over $5, but it's still too low in some instances e.g. Airport, Nambour, Varsity Lakes.  Given that people will have no choice, it's hardly a deterrent and needed in a few instances.

Offline SurfRail

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2013, 01:37:07 PM »
Make it $10.00 and I think it's fine.

I'd scrap SEEQ seeing it serves no useful purpose I can see.  I think the usage figures will be fairly damning.

Not sure exactly on how airport ticket reselling works, but I'd want to make sure Airtrain is go card only as well.
$10 is an improvement over $5, but it's still too low in some instances e.g. Airport, Nambour, Varsity Lakes.  Given that people will have no choice, it's hardly a deterrent and needed in a few instances.

I see your reasoning but I don't think the problem is serious enough to justify parting with $15 before you even get to travel.  Very few people travel over journeys of interurban length and the airport line is always going to see disposable type usage.

$10.00 is probably the absolute limit people would bear.
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somebody

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2013, 01:39:54 PM »
$20 is also an even note, whereas $15 would often require change.

Offline ozbob

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2013, 06:40:49 AM »
Thanks for the post Simon.  Broadly we are in agreement.

I think it is clarifying  into some broad principles:

1.  Base fares too high, needs to be relative reduction in the shorter zone journeys, longer zones are about right.

2.  Clearly room to move in the off peak domain.

3.  Paper should be removed.

4.  Three paid journeys in a day cap (universal) overcomes a lot of issues.
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Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2013, 09:01:24 AM »
Maybe refund some of the deposit (credit applied) when the card is registered?

somebody

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2013, 09:42:37 AM »
Maybe refund some of the deposit (credit applied) when the card is registered?
Not too sure about that.  I doubt anyone would want to hunt down people with $-20 on their go card even if they knew who they were.

Offline Gazza

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2013, 03:10:39 PM »
I dont really like the idea of a 50c fee for bus top ups, would rather just minimum top up levels, with all buses equipped with a drop box for large notes.

somebody

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2013, 03:37:55 PM »
I dont really like the idea of a 50c fee for bus top ups, would rather just minimum top up levels, with all buses equipped with a drop box for large notes.
If you don't have a fee, it would be better to not have top ups on a bus at all.  Make 'em buy a new card.

Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2013, 04:06:07 PM »
$20 bucks might not seem like a lot but when you have multiple people doing something similar and frequently too then that's when it really starts to add up. There are also many ways around to adding extra verification such as sending text messages to verify (Google, Microsoft and alot of gaming platforms now do this), credit card top ups, maybe linking to other services (qld's new smart drivers/proof of age cards) and bringing in minimum balance/linked accounts for example $1 to buy the card along with the ability to link to one pooled account (could be applied to 1 family account). Fully registered (phone/address/credit card) cards have a lower minimum balance eg can run negative. Registered (minimum details for those concerned about privacy so email only) cards have a mix minimum balance eg $15. Unregistered cards have a higher minimum balance to travel eg $20). Register your GoCard and get extra benefits. Don't register your GoCard don't get the extra benefit. Forget your card pop into the shop and buy a new one for $1. Log onto Translink (smart phones are common now/computer) and link it to your account. Enter the number you got from the text/email message to verify and off you go. It might not be possible now but get more places to roll out the sale and top up of GoCards (like itunes gift cards - $1, $20 and $50 cards). Start rolling out buses with real time tracking so the GoCard units can be updated in real time. Get rid of paper tickets on buses. Run the purchase of cards from buses for a fixed time before removing.

I dont really like the idea of a 50c fee for bus top ups

Agreed.... It's not enough :P I'd go futher and ban bus top ups all together. I know people want onboard top ups for BT buses but top ups on non BT buses are just a mega pain in the ass for those that actually use those particular services. Might aswell keep paper tickets then. Make it a proper system and make the cards more available. More ticket machines. More places to top up. More places to buy. Many people here would agree that GoCard is one of the best ticketing systems in the world but its the lack of places to buy, top up and touch on and off that is really dragging it down. The amount of times where I've just wanted to walk down to the front of the bus and sparta kick every damn person that gets on and tops up with $5 at a time.

somebody

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2013, 04:34:56 PM »
$20 bucks might not seem like a lot but when you have multiple people doing something similar and frequently too then that's when it really starts to add up.
You mean from the point of view of the driver having to carry around too much cash?  So long as its infrequent that drivers have to sell a go card or top one up the cash handling task shouldn't be too much.

I dont really like the idea of a 50c fee for bus top ups

Agreed.... It's not enough :P I'd go futher and ban bus top ups all together. I know people want onboard top ups for BT buses but top ups on non BT buses are just a mega pain in the ass for those that actually use those particular services. Might aswell keep paper tickets then. Make it a proper system and make the cards more available. More ticket machines. More places to top up. More places to buy. Many people here would agree that GoCard is one of the best ticketing systems in the world but its the lack of places to buy, top up and touch on and off that is really dragging it down. The amount of times where I've just wanted to walk down to the front of the bus and sparta kick every damn person that gets on and tops up with $5 at a time.
Perhaps it's not enough.  The point would be to institute a charge as a disincentive and if too many people are topping up then it can be raised to increase the disincentive.

While there are places that buses run where it isn't very easy to buy or top up a card, like let's say Eatons Hill or Brighton, I think there needs to be some sort of distribution system for both top ups and sales.  That's why I'm in favour of a charge for topping up.

As for a minimum top up amount, that tends to increase the amount of cash the driver might be carrying, or at least the variability of the amount of cash, so the union could have issues with it.  It's also not really a disincentive from doing it at all, just makes it hard to top up every second boarding.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2013, 06:35:39 PM »
How high does the charge have to be? Look at paper tickets, - whopping fee and people still buy it
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Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2013, 07:04:51 PM »
Where is the weekly ticket Simon?

Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2013, 09:50:12 PM »
$20 bucks might not seem like a lot but when you have multiple people doing something similar and frequently too then that's when it really starts to add up.
You mean from the point of view of the driver having to carry around too much cash?  So long as its infrequent that drivers have to sell a go card or top one up the cash handling task shouldn't be too much.

I was referring to people with $20 debt on their GoCard and then binning it because it was cheaper than paying full fare one or both ways.

While there are places that buses run where it isn't very easy to buy or top up a card, like let's say Eatons Hill or Brighton, I think there needs to be some sort of distribution system for both top ups and sales.

The only reason its difficult to top up and buy GoCards is because of the lack of a proper rollout. That's really the only reason I have left to tollerate it and that's even wearing thin. I bet the Indro interchange still doesn't have a AVM there. God knows why bus stations only have one AVM for.

Eatons Hill has plenty of places to top up and purchase GoCards. There's Albany Creek Square (newsagents, post office, Coles), maybe the Eatons Hill Tavern - servo across the road might be better as its closer to the shops there and the IGA shops and newsagent/Eatons Central and 7-11 servo opposite the school. Plenty of places available but only one of those places currently has a top up facility available. I can't say much for other places but for alot of places this far out (the fringes of "Northern Brisbane") the routes are mostly for key local trips only or they venture to an interchange/all the way to the city. Eg Eatons Hill has the IGA trip generator, iffy Eaton Central generator, the Albany Creek Villiage generator, Strathpine generator and to some very limited extent the Eatons Hill Tavern. Of course there are city routes that go all the way and to Aspley/Chermside and they have no excuse for not being able to top up somewhere. Anyway BT are the operators out this way despite being in the Moreton Bay region so no on board top ups out here yet :) so hopefully it stays that way.

Anything I referred to regarding minimum amounts means no onboard top ups on buses.

Get rid of paper tickets. Get rid of onboard top ups for operators outside of BT routes. Advertise the GoCard. Advertise services. Make all busway stations prepaid only before removing paper tickets/provide facilities to purchase GoCards. Provide fixed onboard sales after paper is removed and then ditch it after 6 months at the most. Focus on providing more facilities and outlets. Its about time the public hardened up and took some responsibility when travelling. It's also about time Translink got its ass into gear when it comes to providing services to the local community.

somebody

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2013, 10:27:11 PM »
Where is the weekly ticket Simon?
Good riddance to that product.

$20 bucks might not seem like a lot but when you have multiple people doing something similar and frequently too then that's when it really starts to add up.
You mean from the point of view of the driver having to carry around too much cash?  So long as its infrequent that drivers have to sell a go card or top one up the cash handling task shouldn't be too much.

I was referring to people with $20 debt on their GoCard and then binning it because it was cheaper than paying full fare one or both ways.
Still too much of people's time to try to chase it down.  Far easier to have a deposit and then you don't have to worry about it.

The only reason its difficult to top up and buy GoCards is because of the lack of a proper rollout. That's really the only reason I have left to tollerate it and that's even wearing thin. I bet the Indro interchange still doesn't have a AVM there. God knows why bus stations only have one AVM for.

Eatons Hill has plenty of places to top up and purchase GoCards. There's Albany Creek Square (newsagents, post office, Coles), maybe the Eatons Hill Tavern
TL's website says two places in Albany Creek.  That is all.  Nothing actually in Eaton's Hill.

somebody

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2013, 10:32:43 PM »
Where is the weekly ticket Simon?
BTW, further to my last post, feel free to post your own proposal.

Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2013, 11:06:16 PM »
Is there really a need for weekly tickets now that its a smart card system? Paper ticket users shouldn't expect anything like that now.

Still too much of people's time to try to chase it down.  Far easier to have a deposit and then you don't have to worry about it.

Which is where minimum balance could come in. If its registered with a linked credit card you can run into the negative balance with some of the purchase price then applied as credit for travel. If its registered with the minimum expect a minimum balance to be able to travel. Unregistered can expect a higher minimum balance maintained on the card. Refunds could also work on a similar basis.

TL's website says two places in Albany Creek.  That is all.  Nothing actually in Eaton's Hill.

My point exactly. There are places that are easily accessiable but the facilites provided to purchase/top up are non existant or they are really lacking.

Oh indeed so there is now. Just opposite the high school there. I had a good old laugh when I read the translink page. Such a great service provided for the community :hg

Available products & services

    Available: Buy a go card
    Unavailable: Buy a SEEQ card
    Unavailable: Get a Visitor Information Pack
    Unavailable: Top up
    Unavailable: Register
    Unavailable: Get a refund
    Unavailable: Change expiry date

Offline Golliwog

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2013, 11:33:17 PM »
Just out of interest, but would it be feasible to have a small passenger operated top up machine on board buses? Save on space so make it no change given, whatever notes/coins you insert is what get's added, so all it needs is a lock box for that to drop into.

It won't really speed things up for those who try and get on the bus with a negative balance, but for those that just want to add when they're getting low it could work.

When I was in Nottingham, not sure if they did top ups on their buses, but that's how the buses I used did paper tickets. Just drop coins in until the driver could see you'd put in enough for whatever the fare was, then he'd hit the button that dropped it into the money box that he couldn't access and he'd hand over the ticket, no change given.
=============================
On the topic of weekly tickets, it depends on how you view what they were provided for. If you see their purpose as something to cut down on the number of transactions at a ticket window/machine, then yeah, no point or need for one now with go cards. But if you saw their purpose as something to encourage repeat use, then yeah there is a need. Currently that's the 9 then free, and to some small extend would be Simon's 3 journeys in a day then free daily cap.

What about something like if you do more than X journeys in a week (say 12 or 14 or something) then you earn a discount for all of next weeks travel (say 5-10%)? Not useful for the occasional commuter, but it's something to drive ongoing use.
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somebody

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2013, 11:53:40 PM »
Just out of interest, but would it be feasible to have a small passenger operated top up machine on board buses? Save on space so make it no change given, whatever notes/coins you insert is what get's added, so all it needs is a lock box for that to drop into.
Interesting concept.  Major difficulty is that it doesn't really help if you have a negative balance, if I'm understanding correctly the way it would work.

Could be too expensive for the benefit.

Still too much of people's time to try to chase it down.  Far easier to have a deposit and then you don't have to worry about it.

Which is where minimum balance could come in. If its registered with a linked credit card you can run into the negative balance with some of the purchase price then applied as credit for travel. If its registered with the minimum expect a minimum balance to be able to travel. Unregistered can expect a higher minimum balance maintained on the card. Refunds could also work on a similar basis.
Major issue with that would be is what are you going to do if the credit card transaction is declined (and I mean in normal usage)?  Suddenly you have a highly negative balance on the go card and no method of recovering the money.  Unless you raise the point at which the credit card transaction is triggered significantly.

Offline Golliwog

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2013, 12:08:28 AM »
Just out of interest, but would it be feasible to have a small passenger operated top up machine on board buses? Save on space so make it no change given, whatever notes/coins you insert is what get's added, so all it needs is a lock box for that to drop into.
Interesting concept.  Major difficulty is that it doesn't really help if you have a negative balance, if I'm understanding correctly the way it would work.

Could be too expensive for the benefit.
It's true that it wouldn't help with a negative balance, but it's also true that if they were on all (or even most) buses, then I'd expect the cases where people get down to negative would decrease as the ease of topping up is higher. In my imagining you'd put it above the front wheel arch so it's still near the driver, but so people using it can stand in the wheelchair area so they're not blocking people or something like that.

But I see the point about cost. You'd basically be installing a new reader, plus small computer and small screen on every bus (a few thousand of those...)
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somebody

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2013, 10:40:58 AM »
Where is the weekly ticket Simon?
BTW, further to my last post, feel free to post your own proposal.
Still no BrizCommuter proposal.

Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2013, 08:12:49 PM »
I know you aren't the only one to mention this Simon, but free travel after 3 journeys, I wonder how many that would actually serve?
I just wonder how many would do 4 journeys a day and would this really encourage the use of PT given the money already expended on 3 fares.
Just a general observation/question.
Unsure if anyone would have some kind of definitive answer.

It's why I didn't include this option in my scenario but made it more achievable after 2 journeys.
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somebody

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Re: Simon's fare system
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2013, 07:49:19 AM »
I know you aren't the only one to mention this Simon, but free travel after 3 journeys, I wonder how many that would actually serve?
I just wonder how many would do 4 journeys a day and would this really encourage the use of PT given the money already expended on 3 fares.
Just a general observation/question.
Unsure if anyone would have some kind of definitive answer.

It's why I didn't include this option in my scenario but made it more achievable after 2 journeys.
My thinking is that it provides a cap for people that call for it and doesn't cause much harm in the process.  I've done 4 journeys in a day, but not particularly often.

 

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