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Author Topic: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)  (Read 5872 times)

Offline ozbob

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Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« on: February 17, 2013, 06:52:43 AM »
Fare Structure

Keep present zones, however fix zone anomalies.

Fare product

Go card and SEEQ, TransLink Access Pass only, other special passes eg. Vision Impairment, Carer.  Remove paper single tickets.

Fare levels

Zone one peak adult go $2.00

Zones one to 10 increment by 50 cents.  Zones 11 to 23 increment by $1.

Off peak fare discount 40%

Concession fares as applicable half of adult fares.

Universal 3 paid journey daily cap.  After 3 paid journeys daily, travel then free.

Fare concessions

Seniors and DVA Gold card free off peak travel.  Concession fares peak.

Students, school and tertiary full time concession fares.

All health care card holders eligible for concession fares.

Children (5-14 incl.) travel free on weekends/holidays with a fare paying adult.

Ticketing system

Go card.  No paper single tickets (remove)

===================

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Offline #Metro

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2013, 07:07:52 AM »
I'd remove double discounting for concessions and simply charge 50% off peak fares for concessions at all times, with standard adult off peak fares of 50%. SEQ PT is quite peaky so there is a need to really get people who do not need to be in peak out of there.
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somebody

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2013, 07:41:04 AM »
3 journey cap but no FUD?  Interesting concept.

I think the flag fall is still too high.  Maybe $1.50 for 1 zone.

Prices per zone could be too cheap.  It's currently a tad over 60c per zone up to zone 9 on average.  I'd suggest 60c per zone up to 9 zones and $1.20 zones 10-23.

I'd add that adult go cards must be sold on buses.

Minor quibble: The 10th zone should cost $1, not 50c, unless this is being changed intentionally.

In general, I'm in favour of what you are suggesting.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2013, 07:51:49 AM »
I will submit a fuller response in the proposed format when I have gathered my thoughts further, but that said I'm not convinced for reducing PEAK hour fares. It's the off peak that is more of a problem IMHO and possibly shoulder peak as well. Also timetabling has to be looked at, no point in doing demand management to shift people from peak hour trains into trains in the off peak that don't actually exist yet.

Metro Trains Melbourne do timetable reviews twice a year on a vastly more complex system AND they have freight run on the lines in peak hour (have seen it myself)- QR is still overdue with its timetable reviews.
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Offline ozbob

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2013, 07:56:59 AM »
Thanks for the feedback, just to get the ball rolling ...

I think a 3 paid daily journey cap might solve a lot of issues (and overcome a lot of the present system (programming) limitations) ...

Removing paper it is a given that preloaded go cards available on the buses (other than prepaid).
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somebody

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2013, 08:05:53 AM »
preloaded go cards available on the buses (other than prepaid).
Is this happening?

Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2013, 08:08:13 AM »
I will submit a fuller response in the proposed format when I have gathered my thoughts further, but that said I'm not convinced for reducing PEAK hour fares.

Why? Would you rather people used cars instead?

There is considerable latent demand in the peak period (demand limited by high fares and poor train scheduling), and the rail system (with a few exceptions) is not near capacity.


Offline ozbob

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2013, 08:12:40 AM »
preloaded go cards available on the buses (other than prepaid).
Is this happening?

I would hope so ...
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2013, 09:07:57 AM »
Quote
Why? Would you rather people used cars instead?

Oh please  :bna:

If anyone wants to get 100% mode share on PT it is dead easy. Simply pass an act making it a jailable offence with huge penalties to drive a car in peak hour and blockade all the main arterial roads with concrete barriers and military armed checkpoints so that only bus services pass through. PT mode share would approach 100% very quickly and the costs of doing this are tiny, and can be done virtually overnight.  NOT that I suggest this, but hopefully I have demonstrated my point...

Go to Melbourne and ride a tram or train during peak hour. As the service gets closer to the city, HUGE and PHENOMENAL overcrowding occurs with  people left behind on the platforms. We have nothing like this in Brisbane (yet), though I suspect after 2016 we will see this with the Merivale Bridge issues. Peak hour is also when passenger's willingness to pay is highest, the people using it also have jobs to go to and can afford it. That's where you get the revenue to pay for the off peak improvements. It is also important to get people who don't need to travel in peak hour out of peak - pricing can do that.

Quote
There is considerable latent demand in the peak period (demand limited by high fares and poor train scheduling), and the rail system (with a few exceptions) is not near capacity.

Evidence?. I still think peak fares are not the main issue - its the off peak frequency combined with off peak fares and shoulder peak that needs work on. I do agree with you on your scheduling point.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 09:16:44 AM by tramtrain »
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Offline Golliwog

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2013, 10:43:28 AM »
TT, some trains on the Ferny Grove line used to have what you talk about happening in Melbourne (people left behind). That was at most 5 years ago now. I haven't experienced it in quite some time now. What's changed? There certainly hasn't been any real service improvements.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2013, 11:26:51 AM »
So the doubling of off peak services on FG line isn't a real service improvement? interesting to note that perth, which has almost identical density profile as brisbane and identical trains but has double the off peak services has less peakyness in demand than QR does.

I take your point about fare increases but the purpose of a price is to ration demand. Hence the reason for peak and off peak fares.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 11:34:43 AM by tramtrain »
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Offline Golliwog

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2013, 12:41:34 PM »
So the doubling of off peak services on FG line isn't a real service improvement? interesting to note that perth, which has almost identical density profile as brisbane and identical trains but has double the off peak services has less peakyness in demand than QR does.

I take your point about fare increases but the purpose of a price is to ration demand. Hence the reason for peak and off peak fares.
I meant peak hour service improvements. I highly doubt the reduced peakyness of demand in Perth is due to many (if any) shifting from using services in peak, to using it in the off peak, rather people finding that they can actually use the service in the off peak now that they don't have a half hour wait. What I'm saying is it'd be more about growth in off peak use rather than spreading the peak load.
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Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2013, 01:38:35 PM »
Quote
Why? Would you rather people used cars instead?
Go to Melbourne and ride a tram or train during peak hour. As the service gets closer to the city, HUGE and PHENOMENAL overcrowding occurs with  people left behind on the platforms. We have nothing like this in Brisbane (yet), though I suspect after 2016 we will see this with the Merivale Bridge issues.
But the situation is not currently like this, and thus there is no need to continue with unattractive peak fares until peak overcrowding is a problem that cannot be solved by other means.

The train network will have spare capacity in most instances until around 2020, as long as all train paths are utilised in an efficient manner (which is not the case for train lines awaiting the stage 2 timetables). The only exception is am peak inbound from Gold Coast/Beenleigh/Cleveland.

Bus network overcrowding is solvable by more efficient use of existing resources.
Quote
Quote
There is considerable latent demand in the peak period (demand limited by high fares and poor train scheduling), and the rail system (with a few exceptions) is not near capacity.

Evidence?
There is plenty of evidence:
1) All the people driving to work instead!
2) Reduction and/or lack of growth in patronage (note: reductions in patronage at stations affected badly by the 2008 timetable, and increase in patronage at stations with service improvements post stage 1 timetables)

See how busy Samford Road is in the am peak, parallel to the FG Line. Many of these drivers can get to their destinations by public transport, but choose not to. How does BrizCommuter know this, because he is friends or works with many Samford Rd corridor commuters.

Most of BrizCommuter's work colleagues who previously used public transport have gone back to driving due to the fare increases and past issues with INB overcrowding (which is still not completely solved, despite being easily solvable).

somebody

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2013, 02:05:10 PM »
There is plenty of evidence:
1) All the people driving to work instead!
While this point is true, TT is correct in the sense that the higher fares are biting far harder in the off peak.

and past issues with INB overcrowding (which is still not completely solved, despite being easily solvable).
Really?  Care to amplify this point?

Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2013, 02:13:59 PM »
and past issues with INB overcrowding (which is still not completely solved, despite being easily solvable).
Really?  Care to amplify this point?
Yes, INB buses are still full in both the am and pm peaks. Not as bad as what it used to be like though. I suggest visiting QUT KG inbound around 4pm during the next few weeks, or attempting to board a RBWH bound bus outbound at Normanby at 7:30am. Full bus fiesta!

Empty out of service counter-peak buses still run along the INB.

Sadly, BrizCommuter's colleagues scared off public transport when the INB was at it's worst haven't come back to using public transport.

somebody

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2013, 02:18:46 PM »
I'm surprised there hasn't been a blog post then.

Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2013, 07:06:19 PM »
I'm surprised there hasn't been a blog post then.
Given that uni week 1 is coming up, there may not be too much longer to wait!

Offline #Metro

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2013, 07:50:43 PM »
Quote
There is plenty of evidence:
1) All the people driving to work instead!
2) Reduction and/or lack of growth in patronage (note: reductions in patronage at stations affected badly by the 2008 timetable, and increase in patronage at stations with service improvements post stage 1 timetables)

See how busy Samford Road is in the am peak, parallel to the FG Line. Many of these drivers can get to their destinations by public transport, but choose not to. How does BrizCommuter know this, because he is friends or works with many Samford Rd corridor commuters.

Do you have figures from the load surveys to measure the number of passengers lost? How big is this shift?
Second point is that how many more train services in peak can fit on the FG line anyway?

I agree with a simple daily cap proposed by Ozbob. It's the off peak travel costs that are high due to low frequency and high fares.

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Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2013, 08:30:02 PM »
Do you have figures from the load surveys to measure the number of passengers lost? How big is this shift?
This was discussed in:
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2012/07/qr-passenger-load-survey-awful-truth.html
Note: Enoggera's 2009 patronage in response to decreased service thanks to the 2008 shambles of a timetable.

Quote
Second point is that how many more train services in peak can fit on the FG line anyway?
Taking into account other lines - 8tph (currently am peak - 7tph, however, all but 3 stations served by only 5tph).
Not taking into account other lines - 11tph (ish) with 8 min terminus dwell.

Offline The Reaper

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2013, 06:49:38 PM »
Second point is that how many more train services in peak can fit on the FG line anyway?

In the current timetable you could only run one additional peak hour service (not taking into account crew or stock availability), although there are  more opportunities either side of the peak.

In a rewritten timetable it would be the limit of the sector two lines capacity through Central (assumed to be 24 per hour in studies) less the number of Shorncliffe, Doomben, and Air trains. 12 trains an hour is readily achievable while leaving 12 for the other three lines (maybe 6S 2D 4A). A higher requirement on the other three lines would commensurably reduce the number of trains operable from Ferny Grove.

Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2013, 08:46:41 PM »
Fare Structure

Keep present zones, however fix zone anomalies.

Fare product

Go card and SEEQ, TransLink Access Pass only, other special passes eg. Vision Impairment, Carer.  Remove paper single tickets.

Fare levels

Zone one peak adult go $2.00

Zones one to 10 increment by 50 cents.  Zones 11 to 23 increment by $1.

Off peak fare discount 40%

Concession fares as applicable half of adult fares.

Universal 3 paid journey daily cap.  After 3 paid journeys daily, travel then free.

Fare concessions

Seniors and DVA Gold card free off peak travel.  Concession fares peak.

Students, school and tertiary full time concession fares.

All health care card holders eligible for concession fares.

Children (5-14 incl.) travel free on weekends/holidays with a fare paying adult.

Ticketing system

Go card.  No paper single tickets (remove)

===================

I understand that this is just a hypothetical proposal ... however;

Current Zone 16 fare = $12.81 per journey, with 9 trips then free = $115.29 per week. (without taking extra trips to reduce total weekly cost)
Proposed Zone 16 fare = $12.00 per journey, with no free trips after 9 = $120.00 per week.

Current Zone 23 fare = $20.91 per journey, with 9 trips then free = $188.19 per week (without taking extra trips to reduce total weekly cost)
Proposed Zone 23 fare = $19.00 per journey, with no free trips after 9 = $190.00 per week.

Given Sunshine Coast levels of service and conditions, Sunshine Coasters would hardly accept an increase in their travel costs under a new fare system.
This is my personal opinion of course, and what I perceive Sunshine Coasters would think. No more, no less.
Just my 2 bob's worth.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 08:53:28 PM by Fares_Fair »
Regards,
Fares_Fair


Offline #Metro

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2013, 09:12:17 PM »
It costs a lot of money to run services 100+ km out of the CBD. Nobody has to live that far from their workplace, and it is pro sprawl. The only reason why someone would travel that far for work during peak is because there is a good paying job at the other end that makes it all worth it.

I agree that services that way are rubbish, it is far.

There should be group ticketing and also concession for seniors replaced with concession for pensioners. Welfare is for people who need it, not for people who want it. Concessions should be extended to hcc holders.

I will gather my thoughts by next weekend...
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Offline Stillwater

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2013, 10:02:50 PM »
Thanks TT for supporting the concept of decentralisation so that the government introduces policies that place good-paying jobs at locations 100km from the CBD.  Every night 200 people from the Sunshine Coast are being treated in Brisbane hospitals because the complex treatment required for their illnesses is not available close to their homes.  Better that they die crawling to hospital because they happen to live too far from where the service (or jobs) are provided. 

And what becomes of Brisbane as a liveable city when all the people from the Sunshine Coast and Gold Coast, under the 'consolidation plan' (for want of a better word) come and live there?  The logical outcome of the argument is that Brisbane becomes like Hong Kong.

There are some who believes that should be the case, because then we would have a bus/train every three minutes past the door.  Yep we should all live in a shoebox for the sake of so-called 'better' public transport.  Are we that driven?

Offline #Metro

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2013, 10:25:46 PM »
Nothing of what you said changes basic cold facts, which is this - cities have economies of scope and scale that will always make it cheaper, easier and convenient to serve. if someone wants to live at gympie north or on coochiemudlo island etc good for them, just expect to own your choices. Like I imply, if it were really really that bad, they would have moved already...

Cities are a place for large buildings, otherwise where else you going to put them? As for your hong kong argument all I say is that west end, new farm etc are about three to four times the density of somewhere like stafford, and is not even close to looking like hong kong.

So, no sympathy from me! Pay!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2013, 10:35:51 PM by tramtrain »
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Offline Stillwater

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2013, 10:27:38 PM »
I find unsustainable the argument that says people who live on the coast 100km from the civilisation of Brisbane should be condemned to catching and frying fish, growing potatoes, weaving baskets and cutting trees into timber and should eschew hopes of obtaining a good-paying job.  If they do, they should move to Brisbane.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2013, 10:33:49 PM »
Still doesn't change the facts about higher costs to service far flung places versus closer and larger...
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Offline Stillwater

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2013, 10:36:28 PM »
The 'super Brisbane' thinking is not under threat from refugees from Coolangatta or Coochiemudlo Island, but from New Zealanders or even a fleet of boat people looking for a better life.  Moreton Bay would be packed with junks carrying people seeking a supposedly 'better' life funded by so-called 'good' jobs.  Furthermore, 'better' is defined by a frequent and efficient public transport system.

Offline Stillwater

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2013, 11:05:43 PM »
What are these 'higher costs' of services to far-flung places?  Taking the aforementioned Gympie North destination, it gets two return train services a day and those services are subsidised by government.  The good folk of Ferny Grove get how many trains a day?  50?  Or whatever, also subsidised.  While the distance to FG is less, the higher frequency of subsidised seats to FG is likely to mean a significantly bigger allocation of taxpayer funds to maintain that service than the GN trains. Perhaps it would be fairer to compare like with like by considering kms travelled by no. of seats per train by no. of trains per day to bring rational sense to the debate. Simply stating 'Nambour train bad, more trains through Toowong good' doesn't get us far.

Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2013, 07:21:34 AM »
Overall concept is well done, and we need good ideas like Ozbob's example.
I just wanted to see its effect on the longer haul commuter, as an advocate would.
It is very close to the mark compared to current prices.

These are good proposals also (from Ozbob's example)

EDIT added
Fare concessions

Seniors and DVA Gold card free off peak travel.  Concession fares peak.

Students, school and tertiary full time concession fares.

All health care card holders eligible for concession fares.

Children (5-14 incl.) travel free on weekends/holidays with a fare paying adult.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 10:48:49 AM by Fares_Fair »
Regards,
Fares_Fair


Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2013, 04:51:20 PM »
Second point is that how many more train services in peak can fit on the FG line anyway?

In the current timetable you could only run one additional peak hour service (not taking into account crew or stock availability), although there are  more opportunities either side of the peak.

More of the issue is that only Mitchelton is served by all services. If Mitchelton terminators/starters were extended to FG, and expresses were made all stations, then peak services to stations other than Mitchelton would be improved by up to 50%, with no overall increase in tph required.

Offline The Reaper

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2013, 05:35:46 PM »
More of the issue is that only Mitchelton is served by all services. If Mitchelton terminators/starters were extended to FG, and expresses were made all stations, then peak services to stations other than Mitchelton would be improved by up to 50%, with no overall increase in tph required.

That wasn't my interpretation of what TT asked, which was regarding the line capacity rather than starting locations. In any event what you're saying doesn't necessarily hold true if the train (currently starting from Mitchelton) cannot get out to Ferny Grove and back again in time. The additional time (twice Mitchelton to Ferny Grove) may not be achievable in the current run while maintaining its inner-city path. It would therefore require another stock set to achieve this. All this is in the current timetable, what happens in the new timetable we'll have to wait and see, but I agree that there shouldn't be any Mitchelton starters or any express running in that.

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2013, 05:42:03 PM »
I find unsustainable the argument that says people who live on the coast 100km from the civilisation of Brisbane should be condemned to catching and frying fish, growing potatoes, weaving baskets and cutting trees into timber and should eschew hopes of obtaining a good-paying job.  If they do, they should move to Brisbane.
That is a straw man argument.  No one said that.

Offline Old Northern Road

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2013, 05:51:27 PM »
What are these 'higher costs' of services to far-flung places?  Taking the aforementioned Gympie North destination, it gets two return train services a day and those services are subsidised by government.  The good folk of Ferny Grove get how many trains a day?  50?  Or whatever, also subsidised.  While the distance to FG is less, the higher frequency of subsidised seats to FG is likely to mean a significantly bigger allocation of taxpayer funds to maintain that service than the GN trains. Perhaps it would be fairer to compare like with like by considering kms travelled by no. of seats per train by no. of trains per day to bring rational sense to the debate. Simply stating 'Nambour train bad, more trains through Toowong good' doesn't get us far.

Ferny Grove line gets 66 return services each weekday
Sunshine Coast line gets 19

However the Ferny Grove line gets around 10 times the patronage as the Sunshine Coast line. So the average Ferny Grove train has around 3 times as many paying customers as the average Sunshine Coast train. Plus Ferny Grove passengers pay far more per km. Nambour is around 9 times the distance to Brisbane as Ferny Grove yet the fares are only 3 times as high.

Offline Old Northern Road

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2013, 05:55:30 PM »
The 'super Brisbane' thinking is not under threat from refugees from Coolangatta or Coochiemudlo Island, but from New Zealanders or even a fleet of boat people looking for a better life.  Moreton Bay would be packed with junks carrying people seeking a supposedly 'better' life funded by so-called 'good' jobs.  Furthermore, 'better' is defined by a frequent and efficient public transport system.
Don’t worry mate none of those boatpeople want to live I redneck Queensland anyway. I get the impression from reading your posts that you’ve never travelled outside of Queensland.

EDIT: (colinw) - please refrain from posts like this which add absolutely nothing to the discussion and serve only to inflame people.

Consider this a one and only warning, next time the post will be deleted and the thread locked.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2013, 08:26:03 AM by colinw »

Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2013, 08:25:48 PM »
The 'super Brisbane' thinking is not under threat from refugees from Coolangatta or Coochiemudlo Island, but from New Zealanders or even a fleet of boat people looking for a better life.  Moreton Bay would be packed with junks carrying people seeking a supposedly 'better' life funded by so-called 'good' jobs.  Furthermore, 'better' is defined by a frequent and efficient public transport system.
Don’t worry mate none of those boatpeople want to live I redneck Queensland anyway. I get the impression from reading your posts that you’ve never travelled outside of Queensland.

.. and (respectfully) you would be dead wrong about SW.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 09:08:00 PM by Fares_Fair »
Regards,
Fares_Fair


Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2013, 09:00:41 PM »
What are these 'higher costs' of services to far-flung places?  Taking the aforementioned Gympie North destination, it gets two return train services a day and those services are subsidised by government.  The good folk of Ferny Grove get how many trains a day?  50?  Or whatever, also subsidised.  While the distance to FG is less, the higher frequency of subsidised seats to FG is likely to mean a significantly bigger allocation of taxpayer funds to maintain that service than the GN trains. Perhaps it would be fairer to compare like with like by considering kms travelled by no. of seats per train by no. of trains per day to bring rational sense to the debate. Simply stating 'Nambour train bad, more trains through Toowong good' doesn't get us far.

Ferny Grove line gets 66 return services each weekday
Sunshine Coast line gets 19

However the Ferny Grove line gets around 10 times the patronage as the Sunshine Coast line. So the average Ferny Grove train has around 3 times as many paying customers as the average Sunshine Coast train. Plus Ferny Grove passengers pay far more per km. Nambour is around 9 times the distance to Brisbane as Ferny Grove yet the fares are only 3 times as high.

You have omitted the infamous rail buses, thank you for that.

However... the facts.
Ferny Grove gets around 10,000 pax per day, according to your statement, since Sunshine Coast gets around 1000 per day from QR's recently quoted figures in the SCD.
Do you know the approx. true figures?

Ferny Grove is around 11.5km, according to your statement.
It's actually 16.1km and Nambour is 104km. Not exactly 9x - it's less than 6.5x the distance.

Northbound on weekdays, the Sunshine Coast line gets 29 services in total per day contiguous from Nambour to Brisbane, and 11 of those are rail buses.
Brings it back to 18, not 19. Close though.

I did not include the train that starts at Caboolture with a 14 minute wait to continue the journey, you may well have and that's ok.

Southbound on weekdays, the Sunshine Coast line gets 26 services in total per day contiguous from Brisbane to Nambour, and 10 of those are rail buses.
Brings it back to 16, not 19.

Average of 17 return services per day.
I have not included the short rail buses that end at Landsborough.
Total rail buses are 13 each direction daily, 26 total, including the short runs.

Source: Timetable dated 23 July, 2012.

Your posts indicate a clear preference for trains that can travel short distances only, when they were made for long distance freight and passenger travel.
Please do not throw up the poor demand argument given our appalling levels of service, rail buses and congested single line track.
It's amazing there is any demand given the scenario we daily face.

If someone can tell me how many Sunshine Coasters drive to Caboolture due to the better service frequency there, and I personally know many who do, or how many people travel down the Bruce Highway that COULD be on a train, and it's insignificant - then I will forsake combatting the 'there is no demand' stand.
Until that time comes, the 'little demand' argument on numbers, will never wash with me.

This is way off topic, sorry Ozbob.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 09:20:16 PM by Fares_Fair »
Regards,
Fares_Fair


Offline Gazza

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2013, 09:35:01 PM »
Quote
Your posts indicate a clear preference for trains that can travel short distances only, when they were made for long distance freight and passenger travel.
Sorry, but you're completley wrong.

EMUs/SMUs were made for short distance travel, not long distance. That's why they have low backed seats, hand holds, no toilets etc etc.

Also, Re the demand argument, you need to consider latent demand versus overall potential demand.

A lot of latent demand isnt being met due to the crappyness of the service, no denying that.

But even if we did fix all that up and get some extra usage, demand for SC trains would still be low compared to other lines due to.
-The distance from Brisbane..In terms of encouraging PT use, how many people can you encourage to do commutes over 1 hour on PT?
-The fact the line doesn't go to key parts of the SC.
-The fact the line will always be slow due to the number of stations from Caboolture to Nambour

Gonna be contraversial here and ask why Elimbah wasn't just closed? Same for Eudlo, Woombye etc...Get the line running a bit faster overall by sacraficing stops, and have people assemble themsevles at the bigger stops on their own time rather than that of the systems'/other pax.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2013, 09:46:14 PM by Gazza »

Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2013, 09:41:24 PM »
Quote
Your posts indicate a clear preference for trains that can travel short distances only, when they were made for long distance freight and passenger travel.
Sorry, but you're completley wrong.

EMUs/SMUs were made for short distance travel, not long distance. That's why they have low backed seats, hand holds, no toilets etc etc.

and you are taking my comment out of context.
I was referring to rail travel in general, not types of train sets.

A ride in those may be uncomfortable for long journeys, but they still can go the distance.
Regards,
Fares_Fair


Offline Stillwater

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2013, 09:46:45 PM »
Roughly, and for the sake of comparison, the fare subsidy for SC rail users is $11,000 a day.  The fare subsidy for just FG rail users is $37,000 daily ( +++ the other lines!), but, yep, some believe those Sunny Coast people are a bunch of bludgers.

Offline Gazza

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Re: Ozbob's Fare System (for an example)
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2013, 09:57:24 PM »
Quote
I was referring to rail travel in general, not types of train sets.
With all due respect, who cares?

Why is it relevant in 2012 what rail was originally being used for in the 1800s or whatever?

Yes, rail was a good way to move lots of stuff over a long distance, sure beats a horse. It was a solution to a problem that existed at the time.

But somewhere along the line, someone else also figured out that trains are really good for moving large numbers of people quickly, often in urban environments, underground. This is not a new thing, London had theirs running in 1863.

Are you saying the image below is an "incorrect" use of a train because it doesn't adhere to the original notion of what trains were for? Is the train in the pic below not doing useful work?


The world wide web was invented as a means for scientists to share research information, not for train foamers to talk about trains, right?
Checkmate  :bg:

 

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“You can't understand a city without using its public transportation system.” -- Erol Ozan