Cleveland incident - 31 Jan 2013 IMU 173

[ozbob]

You can apply both brakes and still run out of room

Indeed, and Minister Emerson has said very clearly not a mechanical issue and not slippage.

As I suggested one option would be late application ..

Do you happen to know roughly how fast the train was going at impact?

[ozbob]

Also confusing with some following union directive, others apparently not?

Time the Minister came clean, they obviously know a lot more than what is being said publicly ....

[STB]

So much confusion out there, it hurts! 

[ozbob]

You can apply both brakes and still run out of room

One of the passengers said she thought the train was going too fast into the station and actually braced herself ...

Just an observation ... 

[Arnz]

There are reports elsewhere that the SMU260/IMU160 applies if the crew "refuses" to work them past the city, as it was reported that someone had boarded a SMU260 to Ipswich just a few moments ago. (Not sure where he boarded).

[ozbob]

Updated ...  http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/qr-to-investigate-why-train-slammed-into-cleveland-station/story-e6freoof-1226566307403

AS investigations suggest the Cleveland train crash was not caused by a mechanical fault, the union has told drivers not to operate that type of train, leading to delays.

In a statement released about 7pm,  Queensland Rail "advises there are currently delays of up to 15 minutes on all lines".

"Our network controllers are doing everything they can to minimise the impact on customers.

"We apologise for the inconvenience and thank customers for their patience."

QR would not say whether the delays were caused by the union directive. ...

[HappyTrainGuy]

Nope, I don't know how fast it was going. One thing I will say though was looking at it there that the train simply rode over the buffer block as if it had acted as a ramp. Its not connected to the rails like many other buffers around the network. Its just a cement block in the ground with the rails leading to it. A bit of cement chiped off the top. It was moved to a 45 degree angle leaning on the bent mast resting just past the front bogies under the doors. The second carriage was still on the tracks bent every so slightly downwards where they joined. I didn't see the actual buffer that impacts with the coupler so it would be interesting to see how damaged that is/played a part in retarting the train along with the condition of the earth surrounding it with the very constant saturating rain we've been having making it soft. The rail condition would also be interesting (the oils, rust and dirt that gets onto them after not being used for a few days). From the photos from the removal it doesn't look too badly damaged. The whole coupler arm would be broken, bent apart and the supports for it would be useless (not sure if Aurizon removed the coupler like they did at Banyo to the undercarriage on the EMU). The carbonfibre front only looks to be cracked around the coupler assembly. The lower guards look to still be in one piece apart from the left side (I assume the coupler bent that way on impact with the buffer). The footplates aren't even bent so I'm very keen to read the report.

If anyone in the quiet carriages comments about the brakes........ 

[colinw]

Union behaviour in this case is just opportunistic grandstanding & bully tactics, and doubtless would not have happened had the other team been in power in George St.

The 160/260 class trains are very closely related to many different Bombardier EMUs run on various gauges around the world, some of them in conditions where snow & ice are experienced.  There have been no reports of systematic problems with trains based on that family of designs and with comparable traction & braking systems.

http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/commuter-and-regional-trains/single-deck-electric-multiple-units/talent-2---germany?docID=0901260d8001d479

Will there also be Union bans in Perth on the "B" class trains?

This does the union no credit at all.  All it will achieve is maximum disruption & public anger.

Frankly, if I were in Cambell Newman's or Scott Emerson's shoes, I seriously would consider pulling an Alan Joyce / QANTAS style lockout and enforced shutdown if the union persists with this.  Might email 'em & suggest it.

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/the-accident-waiting-to-happen-has.html
An updated blog post.

[petey3801]

Could also have been a part time driver. They certainly have racked up the incidents in the past.

I'm mostly staying out of the issues happening, but that comment is quite simply out of line and not on.

Part time (or ex PT) drivers may have had a few issues, but so have full time drivers. I also know for certain the driver involved in the collision was NOT a part time driver.

Next time, engage your brain before shooting your mouth off. Everyone makes mistakes, doesn't matter if they work 4 days a week, 5 days a week of just 1. I must say i'm more than sick of the PT/FT bulls#it that goes on and bringing it out into the public is just not appropriate.

Pull your head in mate.

[petey3801]

You can apply both brakes and still run out of room

One of the passengers said she thought the train was going too fast into the station and actually braced herself ...

Just an observation ... 

Yes, but she said she braced herself after the train departed Wellington Point because she thought something was wrong with the train (which, doing by her description of events, was simply the WSP system working exactly as it should).

[kazzac]

Luckily no one was badly hurt, could have been worse

[colinw]

Yep, we dodged a bullet.  Near empty counter-peak service and nobody in the loo.

[techblitz]

quote

We have no reason to believe that (this train) had any particular fault," Mr Benstead

is this guy for real? Gee i wish i had this guy with me at the roulette table...he could make me a ton of monet with his predictions

[#Metro]

We have no reason to believe that (this train) had any particular fault," Mr Benstead

The train was Labor, that's why it crashed. 

Betcha "due to paying down the debt" said train won't be repaired either 

[ozbob]

Minister for Transport and Main Roads
The Honourable Scott Emerson

Statement from Minister for Transport and Main Roads Scott Emerson

This evening Fair Work Australia found there was no evidence to support the union's claim of a catastrophic brake failure.

Fair Work Australia has ordered the union to cease their bans to allow the investigation into the cause of the Cleveland incident to take place.

I welcome the decision by Fair Work Australia, and I urge the union to let Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) get on with their investigation.

[ENDS] 1 February 2013

[ozbob]

From the Couriermail click here!

Tribunal orders drivers to end train boycott called in wake of Cleveland derailment

Tribunal orders drivers to end train boycott called in wake of Cleveland derailment

    by: Kelmeny Fraser
    From: The Courier-Mail
    February 02, 2013 12:15AM

FAIR Work Australia last night ordered Queensland Rail drivers to cease a boycott of the train model involved in Thursday's Cleveland derailment which threatened to cause havoc with the suburban network.

QR was granted an urgent hearing with Fair Work Australia after the Rail, Tram and Bus Union said its members would not drive the model of train involved in Thursday's accident at Cleveland station, citing safety concerns.

After talks which dragged on until just before midnight, Fair Work Australia found there was no evidence to support claims the trains were unsafe and ordered the union to cease their bans.

It was unclear last night whether the union would abide by the ruling.

The models in dispute make up almost a third of the Queensland Rail fleet, creating the potential for major disruptions into next week.

Train stop: The crash site at Cleveland station. Picture: Adam Armstrong

Union state secretary Owen Doogan late yesterday afternoon issued a direction to 600 members who work on the southeast Queensland rail network not to operate two types of trains which the union claims pose an "imminent safety risk" to drivers and commuters.

Several delays had already hit the network last night, each of which TransLink described as a "mechanical fault" in its public notifications.

But a spokesman for Transport Minister Scott Emerson confirmed delays were being experienced on all lines as a result of both the union directive and other issues.

The Class 160 and 260 trains were rolled out between 2007 and 2011 and account for 64 of QR's fleet of 200 trains.

Ten passengers were taken to hospital after a train overshot the terminal at Cleveland and crashed 15m into the new station building.

Mr Doogan said drivers had made numerous complaints about the two models.

But Queensland Rail rollingstock general manager Paul Coleman, in an email obtained by The Courier-Mail, denied any braking faults.

"Both units . . . had comprehensive safety inspections in January 2013 that included tests on the braking system. No faults were found," he wrote.

Mr Emerson yesterday moved to fast-track an investigation into Thursday's derailment by calling in the Australian Transport Safety Bureau, which will deliver preliminary findings within a month.

[ozbob]

About time the public was told some real facts. 

They clearly have information as to the circumstances to state " ... This evening Fair Work Australia found there was no evidence to support the union's claim of a catastrophic brake failure ... "

TransLink just confused most people last evening, good that Queensland Rail took the initiative and tweeted directly ...

[ozbob]

Just saw a SMU260 UP Oxley, on a Richlands service ....   

[ozbob]

Short Interview on 4BC with host Chris Adams.  Chris has called for a clear explanation as to what when on last evening.

Thanks for the interest 4BC.

[ozbob]

Spotted another 260, could have been a 160 UP at Darra, I was passing in a horseless carriage some distance away ...

[somebody]

From the Couriermail click here!

Tribunal orders drivers to end train boycott called in wake of Cleveland derailment

[ozbob]

Updated ...  http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/union-puts-brakes-on-one-third-of-citys-train-fleet/story-e6freoof-1226567069301

TRAIN services for Brisbane commuters along the Cleveland line are yet to resume following the crash at Cleveland station on Thursday morning.

Buses will continue to ferry commuters from Cleveland and Ormiston train stations to Wellington Point.

Commuters using the replacement bus services may experience delays up to 30 minutes.

Queensland Rail is expected to release an update about when normal train services are likely to resume later this morning.

Meanwhile, Fair Work Australia last night ordered Queensland Rail drivers to cease a boycott of the train model involved in Thursday's Cleveland derailment which threatened to cause havoc with the suburban network.

QR was granted an urgent hearing with Fair Work Australia after the Rail, Tram and Bus Union said its members would not drive the model of train involved in Thursday's accident at Cleveland station, citing safety concerns.

After talks which dragged on until just before midnight, Fair Work Australia found there was no evidence to support claims the trains were unsafe and ordered the union to cease their bans.

It was unclear last night whether the union would abide by the ruling.

The models in dispute make up almost a third of the Queensland Rail fleet, creating the potential for major disruptions into next week ...

[ozbob]

http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/Pages/Default.aspx

Cleveland Update - 10.00 am

The damaged stop block at Cleveland station has been replaced.

Experts have inspected the structure of the station building and are currently removing the damaged areas.

The removal and replacement of damaged overhead lines is expected to be complete by early Sunday morning.

Queensland Rail will continue to work for reopening as early as possible next week and will keep customers fully informed.

Customers should check www.translink.com.au for the latest information about transport arrangements.

[colinw]

Updated ...  http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/union-puts-brakes-on-one-third-of-citys-train-fleet/story-e6freoof-1226567069301

TRAIN services for Brisbane commuters along the Cleveland line are yet to resume following the crash at Cleveland station on Thursday morning.

Good old Courier-Mail - manage to make it sound like the entire Cleveland line is closed when it is actually Wellington Point to Cleveland.   Perhaps we should start employing journos who passed high school English and are able to show at least a Grade 7 level of reading & comprehension.

[mufreight]

Do not know if it is still the case but all trains approaching the platforms at Sydney's Central station country platforms which like the station at Cleveland were dead end lines. All trains made a low speed approach of then 5mph (8 kph), this served two purposes as it allowed the rollingstock examiners to check the train for defects and meant that should a train overun and colide with the buffers that there would be minimal damage.
Perhaps QR should consider a similar measure for Cleveland, Domestic Airport, Ferny Grove and when it comes on line Springfield Central.
I would question as to if Fairwork Australia is qualified to determine the mechanical safety of the brakeing equipment of any train, to make that determination requires considerable expertise and the competence within that area should be in the hands of the Rail Safety Regulator and the Australian Transport Safety Bureau and neither of these bodies will make any report before one month (preliminary report) and the actual final report in three months.
Transport Minister Emerson is on record on saying that Workplace Australia has asserted that there was no catastropic brake failure, does this then mean that there was a brake failure but only what he considers to have been a minor one, any brake failure with a train is of considerable consequence and there have been over the years of railway operation been instances where a minor, intermittent or phantom brake failure has caused an accident.
All of this raises the question of who will now accept the responsibility if there is a further incident involving a brake failure on one of the suspect train sets, will it be Minister Emerson, Workplace Australia, the Rail Safety Regulator of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau.

[BrizCommuter]

http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/Pages/Default.aspx

Cleveland Update - 10.00 am

The damaged stop block at Cleveland station has been replaced.

Experts have inspected the structure of the station building and are currently removing the damaged areas.

The removal and replacement of damaged overhead lines is expected to be complete by early Sunday morning.

Queensland Rail will continue to work for reopening as early as possible next week and will keep customers fully informed.

Customers should check www.translink.com.au for the latest information about transport arrangements.

Has the damaged stop been replaced by another stop block or a train arrestor (latter as used at FG and Domestic)?

[BrizCommuter]

My understanding (open to correction) of Domestic is that the train has to meet a series of reducing speed boards and failure to do so means it gets an automatic brake application with the sliding buffer stop able to catch and stop the train on the remaining rails from about 20km/hr.

Pretty sure that AWS is not that intelligent. There should be nothing less than ATP (preferably ERTMS) and adequate overruns + train arrestors at termini.

[ozbob]

Others can confirm but I am certain they only thing slowing trains at BNE is the driver through braking.

[BrizCommuter]

http://lurs.org.uk/documents/pdf09/jan/terminal_protection_et_al.pdf
Essential reading on terminus protection!

[somebody]

Pretty sure that every train coming into Sydney Terminal is protected by train stops which would trip the train brakes if going above certain speeds at certain points.

Someone will surely ask: It drops a certain time after a train has passed a certain point.  A cunning arrangement, but not completely foolproof.

[ozbob]

... All trains made a low speed approach of then 5mph (8 kph) ... Perhaps QR should consider a similar measure for Cleveland, Domestic Airport, Ferny Grove and when it comes on line Springfield Central.

As we don't have ATP, train stops or equivalent, bit of a no brainer I would have thought ...  particularly after the Cleveland 'incident' ... gives a little more time for an emergency brake if needed as well ..

Melbourne has train stops as well from memory ..

This gives  a good overview of UK ..

Train Protection in the UK --> http://www.railway-technical.com/sigtxt7.shtml

[ozbob]

Twitter

Railway Gazette ‏@railwaygazette  18h

For 5th year in succession, 0 passenger or workforce fatalities in train accidents in Britain during 2012. Also 0 passenger fatalities.

[mufreight]

Pretty sure that every train coming into Sydney Terminal is protected by train stops which would trip the train brakes if going above certain speeds at certain points.

Someone will surely ask: It drops a certain time after a train has passed a certain point.  A cunning arrangement, but not completely foolproof.

Train stops are only fitted to the electrics, I do not know for sure what the situation is now but in the past the single deck electric interurban sets, (U boats) were not fitted with train stops and there were no train stops at the dead end.
All of the loco hauled trains, XPT and the various DMU sets were not equiped with train stops and ALL trains made their approach into the dead ends at speeds not exceeding 5mph.

[ozbob]

Yep ditto Melbourne, the suburban system has the  train stops .. higher speed V/Line routes have TPWS, TPWS is used at Albury terminal track to avoid buffer stop run through.  Trains running into terminal tracks at Southern Cross appear to be speed limited from what I recall.

[ozbob]

Train Stop and associated signal at Flinders Street Station on the electrified network - Melbourne, Australia



A signal with associated train stop in the raised position to the right

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railways_in_Melbourne

[ozbob]

Updated ...  http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/union-puts-brakes-on-one-third-of-citys-train-fleet/story-e6freoof-1226567069301

QUEENSLAND Transport Minister Scott Emerson says Fair Work Australia has debunked union claims that a passenger train crash was caused by brake failure.

Queensland Rail and police are investigating how a Brisbane train left the tracks and smashed into a toilet block at Cleveland station on Thursday.

The Rail Tram and Bus Union (RTBU) said its members would not drive the model of train involved over safety concerns, but was ordered to cease the ban by Fair Work Australia.

Mr Emerson said Fair Work Australia had informed him there was no evidence to support brake failure being an issue.

He said the RTBU should allow the Australian Transport Safety Bureau to complete investigations.

"Fair Work Australia has ordered the union to cease their bans to allow the investigation into the cause of the Cleveland incident to take place," Mr Emerson said in a statement.

"I welcome the decision by Fair Work Australia, and I urge the union to let Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) get on with their investigation."

Mr Emerson said the train underwent a full inspection on January 9 and it was the first train to travel on that line that day.

The RTBU has been sought for comment

[ozbob]

From Rail Safety Investigation Report No 2011/09 Southern Cross Station End-of-Track Collision 15 September 2011



Sort of similar to the stop at Cleveland ..

[Derwan]

I would question as to if Fairwork Australia is qualified to determine the mechanical safety of the brakeing equipment of any train

Their determination wasn't that there is no problem with the braking equipment.  They determined that there was no evidence that there was a problem with the braking system.  There is a distinction. 

[SurfRail]

^ FWA is eminently qualified to tell the RTBU to faff off and stop harrassing people.

The RTBU should be on our list of public enemies, honestly.  They do not have the efficient development of the public transport system at their heart, believe you me.