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Cleveland incident - 31 Jan 2013 IMU 173

Started by ozbob, January 31, 2013, 09:47:42 AM

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ozbob

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ozbob

Twitter

ABC Radio Brisbane ‏@612brisbane

The train driver's union says Qld Rail should withdraw the model of train involved in last wk's crash on Brisbane's bayside @abcnews at 6:30
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petey3801

Quote from: ozbob on February 05, 2013, 06:14:42 AM
Brian Hurst, Editor Bayside Bulletin said in a regular weekly segment on 612 ABC Brisbane Radio this morning ' that the trains are now slower entering the station {Cleveland} ' ....

I heard Control advising drivers of a TSR into P2 at Cleveland of 15km/h.

Regarding the union vs QR/Transport minister thing, it really depends what each side classes as a brake failure. I think the transport minister is saying 'no brake failure' in respect that the brakes actually applied etc., whereas the union may be thinking more along the lines of the brakes/braking systems were not effective. Whether any of that is true or not, I don't know. I have my own opinions and experiences, but its not really appropriate for me to voice them publicly at this stage.

Also, not sure if everyone here knows this, but the RTBU aren't the only traincrew union in QLD, we also have the AFULE, who are currently asking for any drivers with concerns to advise the union. The AFULE did not issue a ban on these units at this stage.
All opinions stated are my own and do not reflect those held by my employer.

ozbob

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ozbob

Presently inbound SMU264 7.59am ex Goodna,  seems as it always was ... normal approach speeds ..
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ozbob

Heading to Cleveland onboard EMU79 (8.51am ex Roma St), haven't seen any SMU/IMUs yet on the line ...
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ozbob

Crikey, actually saw someone touch off at Wynnum Central  .. the rest must have paper single tickets .. :pfy:
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ozbob

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ozbob

I need to go the loo ..  :P  Guess I will have to go for a walk

Cleveland arrival, very slow yard entry, very slow into platform 2 ...

IMU 165/177 in platform one.

Fair rate of knots Wellington Point - Ormiston
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HappyTrainGuy

The Cleveland line is pretty speedy until it hits the Wynumn area and then slower through the Morningside-City leg.

colinw

Quote from: ozbob on February 05, 2013, 09:49:00 AM
I need to go the loo ..  :P  Guess I will have to go for a walk

At least you're not on the Nambour train.

ozbob

Good news ... portaloos in the up side car park ..  :P



Photograph R Dow 5th February 2013
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colinw

Is that a new mast slewed off to the side of the track?

ozbob

Quote from: colinw on February 05, 2013, 10:16:35 AM
Is that a new mast slewed off to the side of the track?

Yes indeed, much better, clear now.  The other platform is still the same, concrete block stop with power pole dead centre behind as per platform two before the incident.
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ozbob

Portaloos in the car park at Cleveland ...



Photograph R Dow 5th February 2013
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Stillwater

Maybe the replacement loos at Cleveland should be built 'like brick shithouses' in the event of another collision.   :hg

ozbob

#176
Cleveland, you can note that the power tie off is now at angle.

















Photographs R Dow 5th February 2013
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ozbob

Quote from: rtt_rules on February 05, 2013, 17:47:12 PM
Quote from: Stillwater on February 05, 2013, 14:46:54 PM
Maybe the replacement loos at Cleveland should be built 'like brick shithouses' in the event of another collision.   :hg

They probably looked at the damage and thought the OH pole did the most like cracked the windscreen, so moved it. Dunny's are probably quite cheap and low risk of someone actually being there, but the driver is always present.

Seriously though, I wonder if there was prior a longterm plan to move the poles in the future? Nothing will happen to other side I'm guessing until report or planned line shutdown.

Media reports indicated that passengers had to remain in the train for 10 to 15 minutes whilst the power was cut, as the over head was hanging over the train.  Moving the tie off to the side  would avoid in most run throughs the train bringing the overhead down on itself.  Ferny Grove has the tie offs to the side as well, and it also has train arrestors.
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HappyTrainGuy

#178
Yep. Once the wires come down control will get an error about that area before the system automatically re-energises again to eliminate any potential fault in the system. OH&S has a set and specific guideline for staff and crews to follow if wires come down or as a result of a crash. The worst thing to do in any accident like that is to rush up to the train as the train itself (very unlikely but in the right circumstances from overheads or batteries/components underneath) could be live but so can the tracks, nearby fences, nearby infrastructure or anything that happens to be close to them.

Set in train

Quote from: SurfRail on February 02, 2013, 22:45:43 PM
^ FWA is eminently qualified to tell the RTBU to faff off and stop harrassing people.

The RTBU should be on our list of public enemies, honestly.  They do not have the efficient development of the public transport system at their heart, believe you me.

Agree wholeheartedly.


ozbob

Sent to all outlets:

6th February 2013

Re: Cleveland Incident

Greetings,

The public continues to be confused about the circumstances that contributed to the 'Cleveland Incident'.  Union directives to members to not drive certain train types, namely SMU 260 and IMU 160 series have been ordered to be ceased by Fair Work Australia.

The Minister for Transport has ruled out mechanical issues, catastrophic brake failure and slippage as being causal factors in the incident.  The immediate cause of the incident therefore must be known, otherwise the operator would have withdrawn the trains?

Various media comments suggest that there has been an issue with wheel slip on occasions on the network.

This leaves the public in a state of confusion and concern.  There is obviously more information re the incident that is not being made public, otherwise how could the Minister rule out certain factors?

Has there been a modification of speed restrictions on approaches to terminal stations, particularly Brisbane Airport Domestic, Ferny Grove, and planned for Cleveland on re-opening?  Seems there might have been.  I travelled to Cleveland yesterday and the approach speed by the train into Cleveland yard and station was reduced ( http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9567.msg119111#msg119111 ).  Why wasn't the public informed of these pro-active measures? 

The Queensland Rail suburban network does not have a proper Automatic Train Protection system, something which needs to be addressed in the longer term as well.

There is widespread public concern and we believe it is reasonable that a proper explanation as to the circumstances and plans to guard against similar incidents in the future is clearly articulated to the public today.

Public confidence needs to be restored promptly.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org
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ozbob

From Letters to the editor Couriermail 6th February 2013 page 24

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ozbob

ABC News has followed up, thanks for the interest.
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Fares_Fair

Regards,
Fares_Fair


ozbob

Twitter

26 Years & Counting ‏@26YearsCounting

@Robert_Dow I certainly have questions as a commuter! If train was fine & driver not at fault what caused it?!

7:40 AM - 6 Feb 13
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ozbob

Queensland Rail and its precursors has been pursing ATP for some time for the suburban network,  but has stalled.  Funding for it is essentially non-existent, although I understand it is back on the funding agenda.  It is getting to the point where it will be difficult to continue without it.  I would expect one of the recommendations from the investigation will be to implement ATP system wide.

Queensland Rail has posted a series of updates re Cleveland but only situational.  Some assurance as to the actions is needed.  People are not stupid, far better to get them onside than writing letters to the papers ...

 
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bretto82

seems like the atsb is making good head way on the investigation and have the train in a testing facility yesterday  http://www.atsb.com.au/publications/investigation_reports/2013/rair/ro-2013-005.aspx

ozbob

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HappyTrainGuy

In reality not really though. Its pretty much standard practice for where they are at after an incident. You'll know that they motoring on into the report when they try to replicate what happened with a similar train on its mtce cycle.

ozbob

I hope they have identified a train with a similar mtce cycle to use for the testing and quarantined it  ....
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ozbob

#191
At BNE domestic, both platforms the tie off mast is centre.

Speed boards on approach to platforms step from 60, to 50, to 40 to 25.  Although the approach speed today noticeably slower, was less than 20 km/h I estimate before the 50 board.

Travelled on IMU186/187.
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somebody

Quote from: ozbob on February 11, 2013, 10:24:56 AM
At BNE domestic, both platforms the tie off mast is centre.
The least of the worries in the event of an overrun.

ozbob

Maybe so, but someone was suggesting they were at the side, similar to FG.

Infact it is an issue as was demonstrated at Cleveland.  It may delay evacuation and immediate first aid.  Guess that is why it has been put to the side at Platform 2 now at Cleveland and are that way at FG.  I would expect that will be the case at Kippa Ring as well when built.

However, with the limited speed approach the arrestor should be able to hold the train before that becomes an issue hopefully at BNE.
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ozbob

#194
Couple of pics platform 2 BNE Domestic.  You can see clearly the tie off mast is central.  I think if it was built today the tie off would be off to the side, similar to FG, which appears to be the practice today.





Photographs R Dow 11th February 2013

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mufreight

Quote from: rtt_rules on February 11, 2013, 15:30:49 PM
Quote from: ozbob on February 11, 2013, 12:32:35 PM
Maybe so, but someone was suggesting they were at the side, similar to FG.

Infact it is an issue as was demonstrated at Cleveland.  It may delay evacuation and immediate first aid.  Guess that is why it has been put to the side at Platform 2 now at Cleveland and are that way at FG.  I would expect that will be the case at Kippa Ring as well when built.

However, with the limited speed approach the arrestor should be able to hold the train before that becomes an issue hopefully at BNE.

It was an assumption by a few including me, but obviously not correct. Looking at the photos posted of Dom, I wouldn't be moving the mast at all because if you hit that, 30cm behind its straight down although the southern platform with a bit of speed you might collect the air bridge first. As Simon said its the least of your worries.

Hitting the mast that ties off the overhead would do little to slow or stop even a single carriage at 5kph but pulling down live overhead that might not isolate itself when it went to ground does present a potental threat to the lives of not only any passengers but also rescuers delaying any rescue attempts, delay that could well cost lives.

HappyTrainGuy

The airport wouldn't make a difference if it knocked down the mast as the carriages/panto would bring down the wires because of the carriage angle and the drop off :P

ozbob

From the Couriermail click here!

QR admits it received reports of trains slipping before Cleveland station derailment

QuoteQR admits it received reports of trains slipping before Cleveland station derailment

    by: Robyn Ironside
    From: The Courier-Mail
    February 12, 2013 12:00AM

QUEENSLAND Rail has conceded it has had previous reports of "trains sliding in wet weather" in the wake of the near disastrous Cleveland crash last month.

The Rail Tram and Bus Union will today demand that drivers be allowed to decide for themselves whether they operate trains like the one that smashed into Cleveland station on January 31.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is investigating the incident but the RTBU wants similar model trains pulled from service until the cause is known.

Union secretary Owen Doogan said they had received evidence of other occurrences.

He said in one incident on January 30, a train heading for Gympie could not brake for 900m.

"In another case, we understand the brakes were out of control for 300 to 400m at Narangba station on January 28," Mr Doogan said.

A Queensland Rail spokesman said the ATSB was "being given access to all relevant information, including reports of trains sliding in wet weather".

When drivers refused to operate the Class 160 and 260 trains after the incident, they were ordered to return to work by the Fair Work Commission.

The RTBU has lodged an appeal against the Fair Work decision.
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ozbob

Sent to all outlets:

12th February 2013

Re: Cleveland Incident

Greetings,

Interesting development.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org


From the Couriermail http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/qr-admits-it-received-reports-of-trains-slipping-before-cleveland-station-derailment/story-e6freoof-1226575752743

QR admits it received reports of trains slipping before Cleveland station derailment

   
QuoteQR admits it received reports of trains slipping before Cleveland station derailment

        by: Robyn Ironside
        From: The Courier-Mail
        February 12, 2013 12:00AM

    QUEENSLAND Rail has conceded it has had previous reports of "trains sliding in wet weather" in the wake of the near disastrous Cleveland crash last month.

    The Rail Tram and Bus Union will today demand that drivers be allowed to decide for themselves whether they operate trains like the one that smashed into Cleveland station on January 31.

    The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is investigating the incident but the RTBU wants similar model trains pulled from service until the cause is known.

    Union secretary Owen Doogan said they had received evidence of other occurrences.

    He said in one incident on January 30, a train heading for Gympie could not brake for 900m.

    "In another case, we understand the brakes were out of control for 300 to 400m at Narangba station on January 28," Mr Doogan said.

    A Queensland Rail spokesman said the ATSB was "being given access to all relevant information, including reports of trains sliding in wet weather".

    When drivers refused to operate the Class 160 and 260 trains after the incident, they were ordered to return to work by the Fair Work Commission.

    The RTBU has lodged an appeal against the Fair Work decision.



Quote from: ozbob on February 06, 2013, 03:56:04 AM
Sent to all outlets:

6th February 2013

Re: Cleveland Incident

Greetings,

The public continues to be confused about the circumstances that contributed to the 'Cleveland Incident'.  Union directives to members to not drive certain train types, namely SMU 260 and IMU 160 series have been ordered to be ceased by Fair Work Australia.

The Minister for Transport has ruled out mechanical issues, catastrophic brake failure and slippage as being causal factors in the incident.  The immediate cause of the incident therefore must be known, otherwise the operator would have withdrawn the trains?

Various media comments suggest that there has been an issue with wheel slip on occasions on the network.

This leaves the public in a state of confusion and concern.  There is obviously more information re the incident that is not being made public, otherwise how could the Minister rule out certain factors?

Has there been a modification of speed restrictions on approaches to terminal stations, particularly Brisbane Airport Domestic, Ferny Grove, and planned for Cleveland on re-opening?  Seems there might have been.  I travelled to Cleveland yesterday and the approach speed by the train into Cleveland yard and station was reduced ( http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9567.msg119111#msg119111 ).  Why wasn't the public informed of these pro-active measures? 

The Queensland Rail suburban network does not have a proper Automatic Train Protection system, something which needs to be addressed in the longer term as well.

There is widespread public concern and we believe it is reasonable that a proper explanation as to the circumstances and plans to guard against similar incidents in the future is clearly articulated to the public today.

Public confidence needs to be restored promptly.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org
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ozbob

Might be time to get the steamers ready for the afternoon peak ...   :lo

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