Suggestion - extend Park Road terminators ex FG to Springfield

[ozbob]

What if the present Park Road Terminators ex FG were extended to Springfield (Park Road - Yeerongpilly - Springfield Central)

This would give 15 minutes on the Branch.

[somebody]

I think Corinda is quite far enough.

There's no need for the proposed violations of sectorisation.  Just make the IPS trains express and 4tph all to RCH, as previously discussed.  Reasonable counter peak services put you almost there anyway.

[SurfRail]

Frequent trains are slowly inching towards Kuraby and beyond, no need to do anything which would jeopardise this. 

Off peak there should be enough stock available for a 4tph service to Springfield without this.

[ozbob]

Thought it was a bit silly, just wanted to see what others thought ..

[somebody]

Frequent trains are slowly inching towards Kuraby and beyond, no need to do anything which would jeopardise this. 

I don't really agree with this line of argument.  Moorooka has the 100, Rocklea and Salisbury are so lowly patronised it isn't funny, and Coopers Plains has the Gold Coast trains.  Unless you are actually going to go with my proposal of a tiered service hinging at Coopers Plains of course.

Assuming the tiered service isn't happening, bringing back Tennyson service interpeak I would view as a positive move.  It was widely supported in a post CRR world, here: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=8812.0

Why not do it now if it doesn't cause any real harm?

[colinw]

What impact would 2TPH each way via Tennyson have on the Coal/Freight haul?  Also are there going to be junction conflicts at Yeerongpilly?

I quite like the idea of going to Corinda.  As Simon notes the stations beyond Yeerongpilly are all hopeless until Coopers Plains & Banoon, and in the case of Rocklea eminently in need of closing.

[somebody]

Also are there going to be junction conflicts at Yeerongpilly?

Yes, but these conflicts presently exist at South Brisbane anyway.  It's not an additional problem, just a relocated one.

Some impact on the coal haul I guess, but QR can't get some coal trains around sets of 30 minute frequency services?  Are they kidding?

[SurfRail]

My view remains that if you go with a routing like Corinda, or divert them to Richlands, it becomes that much harder to get them further south when the timetable is redesigned.

I support 4 tph to Springfield and I am confident it is doable with the current fleet.  The issue is whether they are interested in paying for it, and the answer is almost certainly going to be "no".

[HappyTrainGuy]

Simon, no, but the Yeerongpilly junction is part of a 20km crossing loop. Then theres the Park Road Junction for freight via the suburbans. So depending on the direction and destination of freight it can impact on passenger services be it following yellows/reds behind the freights/coalies or blocked because of them going through multiple junctions.

[somebody]

Simon, no, but the Yeerongpilly junction is part of a 20km crossing loop. Then theres the Park Road Junction for freight via the suburbans. So depending on the direction and destination of freight it can impact on passenger services be it following yellows/reds behind the freights/coalies or blocked because of them going through multiple junctions.

What is the "no" in response to?  The "Are they kidding"?

[hU0N]

A bit of a thought bubble on this issue..

There seem to be two reasons why there can't be 4tph on the Springfield and Ipswich Lines.

• No need for the 8tph between Darra and Roma Street (and the cost of running them)
• Lack of train slots through the city tunnels

So, why not run 4tph Roma Street (or Caboolture or wherever you want to start them from) to Ipswich, then run Springfield as a 4tph shuttle with a co-ordinated timetable and cross platform transfers at Darra?

It'd solve the frequency problem at much lower cost (than 8tph) and without overcrowding the city tunnels.  And a single, well co-ordinated transfer would be virtually no disincentive to passengers from Richlands and Springfield.

[Gazza]

I think 8tph can be Justfied...They do it to Thornlie and Armidale in Perth.

[somebody]

I don't think cross platform transfers are a possibility at Darra.  That would require Ipswich trains in both directions to serve platform 3 for a start.

I think 8tph can be Justfied...They do it to Thornlie and Armidale in Perth.

They will say that Armadale doesn't have to work with freight, but that is not a reason why 2tph IPS express + 4tph RCH all stops is hard.

[colinw]

I don't see 8tph from Darra as extravagant anyway.  It is still well below the metro frequency, but still frequent enough that it becomes effectively turn up & go.

In any case it isn't the 1990s tunnels via Central 5 & 6 which have the major capacity problem.

OTOH, addressing hU0N's post, I have no objection to shuttle services & forced change provided it can be arranged as a well co-ordinated cross platform change.

[petey3801]

provided it can be arranged as a well co-ordinated cross platform change.

In QLD?? 

[colinw]

 

[SurfRail]

A bit of a thought bubble on this issue..

There seem to be two reasons why there can't be 4tph on the Springfield and Ipswich Lines.

• No need for the 8tph between Darra and Roma Street (and the cost of running them)
• Lack of train slots through the city tunnels

So, why not run 4tph Roma Street (or Caboolture or wherever you want to start them from) to Ipswich, then run Springfield as a 4tph shuttle with a co-ordinated timetable and cross platform transfers at Darra?

It'd solve the frequency problem at much lower cost (than 8tph) and without overcrowding the city tunnels.  And a single, well co-ordinated transfer would be virtually no disincentive to passengers from Richlands and Springfield.

8 tph causes overcrowding?  Are you serious?

They can handle 18tph in peak with no sweat whatsoever.  Off-peak should be a doddle - even with facing moves at Milton.  Lines in other parts of the world are perfectly capable of doing this without extravagances like moving block signalling or ATP.

[hU0N]

A bit of a thought bubble on this issue..

There seem to be two reasons why there can't be 4tph on the Springfield and Ipswich Lines.

• No need for the 8tph between Darra and Roma Street (and the cost of running them)
• Lack of train slots through the city tunnels

So, why not run 4tph Roma Street (or Caboolture or wherever you want to start them from) to Ipswich, then run Springfield as a 4tph shuttle with a co-ordinated timetable and cross platform transfers at Darra?

It'd solve the frequency problem at much lower cost (than 8tph) and without overcrowding the city tunnels.  And a single, well co-ordinated transfer would be virtually no disincentive to passengers from Richlands and Springfield.

8 tph causes overcrowding?  Are you serious?

They can handle 18tph in peak with no sweat whatsoever.  Off-peak should be a doddle - even with facing moves at Milton.  Lines in other parts of the world are perfectly capable of doing this without extravagances like moving block signalling or ATP.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with these statements, simply observing that most objections to higher frequencies on the Ipswich/Springfield lines come under one of these headings, namely 8tph is too expensive given the number of potential passengers (which is probably the more valid of the two), or else overcrowding.

I just got to thinking, why not run a shuttle, given that shuttle operation would provide more or less the same service as 8tph, but would sidestep the most common objections.

[ozbob]

Unless they start to feed the rail line properly it is not going to go much further.  The parking is full, people can't catch the trains even if they want to.  I noted Dinmore full the other day, been a while since I have seen that.  The usual suspects are full to brim.  The HF bus running Mount Ommaney to Forest Lake was a good idea, but that is all it is likely to be.  Far better to have a BUZ 100 running up Ipswich Road, because it is just too difficult to move their fat botteys more than once ...

Interesting today they announced an expansion at Springfield Central shopping centre.  Another failure in the making there.  No bus support planned to feed it.  100 park and ride, going to be a raging failure ..

[SurfRail]

A bit of a thought bubble on this issue..

There seem to be two reasons why there can't be 4tph on the Springfield and Ipswich Lines.

• No need for the 8tph between Darra and Roma Street (and the cost of running them)
• Lack of train slots through the city tunnels

So, why not run 4tph Roma Street (or Caboolture or wherever you want to start them from) to Ipswich, then run Springfield as a 4tph shuttle with a co-ordinated timetable and cross platform transfers at Darra?

It'd solve the frequency problem at much lower cost (than 8tph) and without overcrowding the city tunnels.  And a single, well co-ordinated transfer would be virtually no disincentive to passengers from Richlands and Springfield.

8 tph causes overcrowding?  Are you serious?

They can handle 18tph in peak with no sweat whatsoever.  Off-peak should be a doddle - even with facing moves at Milton.  Lines in other parts of the world are perfectly capable of doing this without extravagances like moving block signalling or ATP.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with these statements, simply observing that most objections to higher frequencies on the Ipswich/Springfield lines come under one of these headings, namely 8tph is too expensive given the number of potential passengers (which is probably the more valid of the two), or else overcrowding.

I just got to thinking, why not run a shuttle, given that shuttle operation would provide more or less the same service as 8tph, but would sidestep the most common objections.

Yes, but is it really overkill?

4tph express + 4tph all stations sounds fine to me.  It's exactly what is offered on the Armadale line in Perth.  All stations service to a one-station spur, limited stations to just after this point and then all stations to the terminus.

4tph to Ipswich with a shuttle preserves a slow all-stations journey into the west which would otherwise not be greatly different from driving.

This is a secondary priority for now until 15 minute headways can be rolled out further elsewhere.  I'm not going to be happy with any Sector II review which doesn't at least extend the 15 minute coverage somewhere - be it Manly, or Shorncliffe, or Kuraby, or even just confirmation the FG trial will be kept and the weekend service upgraded to match.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Unless they start to feed the rail line properly it is not going to go much further.  The parking is full, people can't catch the trains even if they want to.  I noted Dinmore full the other day, been a while since I have seen that.  The usual suspects are full to brim.  The HF bus running Mount Ommaney to Forest Lake was a good idea, but that is all it is likely to be.  Far better to have a BUZ 100 running up Ipswich Road, because it is just too difficult to move their fat botteys more than once ...

Interesting today they announced an expansion at Springfield Central shopping centre.  Another failure in the making there.  No bus support planned to feed it.  100 park and ride, going to be a raging failure ..

You can apply that for pretty much most of the rail network. Take Northgate-Caboolture on the Caboolture line. Sunshine is in the middle of an industrial area but its park and ride is full very early from people overflowing from Geebungs park and ride. Geebung is full very early in the morning. Carseldine is starting to overflow with side streets starting to have alot of parked cars parked back past the park there. Bald Hills got to the point where it had to expand its parking due to locals complaining of difficulties exiting driveways/poor visability/cars blocking acces to driveways because of cars on both sides of the road. Zillmere had its park and ride expanded around the same time as Strathpine did a few years ago. Strathpine really does cater for the majority of the park and riders from Eatons Hill, Warner, Joyner, Bray Park, Lawnton and Strathpine but they are all down to personal preference and the arvo traffic congestion (Top tip. If you want to get out of Bray Park station park and ride quickly... hope your train was delayed by an extra 3 minutes over the train infront and then run like hell as soon as the doors open ). Don't bother with trying to find a spot at Bray Park as you won't. There has been issues in the past with cars blocking the railway corridor access points there too. Lawnton has both of its official park and rides full very early with the vacant block of land next to it taking up the additional slack. Petrie had to exand its park and ride with the boom of North Lakes. Dakabin hasn't changed but its copping the flack of expansion out towards the highway and from North Lakes. Narangba has people driving there because walking isn't an option and despite their best attempts the local feeder could be beefed up. But just like Narangba Burpengary and Morayfield suffered the same fate and had to really upgrade their park and rides to cope with the overflow from Caboolture and booming areas around the stations.

Take away the park and ride expansions and the only thing they all have in common are poor feeder services. Like you said parking can only take so much. Walk up patronage can only capture so much. There needs to be more feeders if patronage wants to grow. The new bus network review has finally addressed a few of these problems. When the bus network is implimented, Springfield line opens and the MBRL is brought online the railways could be in a way better position for upgrades, more frequent services, multiple express patterns, additional lines etc as it would be a major part of our PT network.

[BrizCommuter]

Any extra Springfield services should use the mains via Indro, not the suburbans via South Bank. Keep it simple!

[somebody]

Any extra Springfield services should use the mains via Indro, not the suburbans via South Bank. Keep it simple!

I don't think our viewpoints are all that different, even if did seem so once.

[Old Northern Road]

This is where I think 4t/hr on each route, Spr, Ips, Cab and Kippa is for now too much (due to freights and infrastructure and probably pax loadings) but 2t/he is too little. Hence 3t/hr or 20min frequency as an short-mid term measure with the goal to be at 4t/hr by 2016-2018.

10min head ways Darra to Petrie, 20min outside, much better than 30min, only slightly worse than 15min.


For the Future,
the Limited Express on the inner sections for 4t/hr. stopping Indo, Toowong and Milton.
ie
Citybound
- Ips Express arrives at Darra, 5min later Spring.
- Ips will then catch up close to the preceeding ex Spr service by city. Reduce gap from 10min to ~4-5min leaving 10min gap for freights and cross overs at Roma st.
- After city the ex Spr service is now limited express to Petrie, next stop EJ, NG and most stops to Petrie and the ex Ips is all stopper from EJ.

I would definitely support that. Caboolture trains could skip Virginia and Sunshine and maybe Geebung as they don't really need a train every 10mins.

However I don't support running passenger trains via Tennyson as we need to keep passenger trains separate from freight as much as possible.

[HappyTrainGuy]

...is for now too much (due to freights and infrastructure and probably pax loadings) but 2t/he is too little. Hence 3t/hr or 20min frequency as an short-mid term measure with the goal to be at 4t/hr by 2016-2018....

Its a bit of all. I honestly do not expect to see any frequency advances on that part of the network until the spurs are actually up and running. Its fine making proposals but realisticly when the speed restrictions are introduced like hell on Lawnton-Petrie (bridge duplication works and connections to the existing corridor/works to the Gympie Road overpass) through Petrie station (existing platform works, new platforms, stabling removal, new bridges, tempory level crossings for work vehicles, earthworks, new roads, noise restrictions etc) and then Petrie-Anzac Road overpass (new approach roads, mods to overheads/sub station, eathworks, maybe a flyover, track removal etc) and other network changes are about to be introduced I don't see them farting around like that for something major that has to all get changed again.

I would definitely support that. Caboolture trains could skip Virginia and Sunshine and maybe Geebung as they don't really need a train every 10mins.

I wouldn't as it screws up the existing bus network and the new proposed bus network for what is a small gain. Also stuffs up all the level crossing timing for minimising downtime/impact on the bus network (which was and still is the enemy of the 325, 326, 327, 335, 336, 337 at Bald Hills (Telegraph Road), Carseldine and Geebung. It wasn't uncommon for the 335 to depart Taigum on time but by the time it got to chermside it was 10 minutes down on its schedule. 325 easily lost 15 mins on its running through Geebung and congestion on Hamilton Road. Geebung is to be a major interchange point. No point if its only going to be 2 stations and I don't see any stop between Petrie-Northgate being bypassed.

Rather than half assing the network for big small changes every year do it proper the first time. It's only 3 years so I say promote improvments for peak hour running with a few extra services here and there/in the morning/weekends. Focus and promote getting the best for the spurs such as the flyover at Petrie for the MBRL. Overpasses/level crossing removal will be completed at Bald Hills (telegraph road) and Geebung by late 2014/2015. The Carseldine level crossing has been planned for removal aswell (not sure what the deal is now since the UDLA was given back to the BCC). Promote higher capacity buses for the frequency network that feeds into the stations. Better livery of bus stops/signage to promote "This is where you interchange from bus/train". Push for full rollout of stop signage inside buses that promote these interchanges. Get them onto trains too. Better maps. Take a page out of the old QR timetable books and make some points of intrest available eg connection to frequent routes XX. The new bus network will be introduced in late 2014. NGR will be up and running pumping out rollingstock. Push for and maintain 2tph on the Ipswich-Caboolture corridor but push for them being express (proper express) with better frequency of 4tph on the spurs KR-SL to take up the slack.

[Old Northern Road]

I wouldn't as it screws up the existing bus network and the new proposed bus network for what is a small gain. Also stuffs up all the level crossing timing for minimising downtime/impact on the bus network (which was and still is the enemy of the 325, 326, 327, 335, 336, 337 at Bald Hills (Telegraph Road), Carseldine and Geebung. It wasn't uncommon for the 335 to depart Taigum on time but by the time it got to chermside it was 10 minutes down on its schedule. 325 easily lost 15 mins on its running through Geebung and congestion on Hamilton Road. Geebung is to be a major interchange point. No point if its only going to be 2 stations and I don't see any stop between Petrie-Northgate being bypassed.

Rather than half assing the network for big small changes every year do it proper the first time. It's only 3 years so I say promote improvments for peak hour running with a few extra services here and there/in the morning/weekends. Focus and promote getting the best for the spurs such as the flyover at Petrie for the MBRL. Overpasses/level crossing removal will be completed at Bald Hills (telegraph road) and Geebung by late 2014/2015. The Carseldine level crossing has been planned for removal aswell (not sure what the deal is now since the UDLA was given back to the BCC). Promote higher capacity buses for the frequency network that feeds into the stations. Better livery of bus stops/signage to promote "This is where you interchange from bus/train". Push for full rollout of stop signage inside buses that promote these interchanges. Get them onto trains too. Better maps. Take a page out of the old QR timetable books and make some points of intrest available eg connection to frequent routes XX. The new bus network will be introduced in late 2014. NGR will be up and running pumping out rollingstock. Push for and maintain 2tph on the Ipswich-Caboolture corridor but push for them being express (proper express) with better frequency of 4tph on the spurs KR-SL to take up the slack.

Always excuses. Melbourne has trains running every 10mins on lines that have far more level crossings than the Caboolture line. The Armadale line in Perth has more level crossings than any line in Brisbane and it has trains running every 7.5mins.

[SurfRail]

I wonder if now is the time to push extending the Park Road extras further south to Rocklea at least (to compensate people in the area for the withdrawal of the windy bits of the 116 and the fact what is currently the Moorooka Station stop on the 100 will no longer be served with high frequency).

[SurfRail]

I wonder if now is the time to push extending the Park Road extras further south to Rocklea at least (to compensate people in the area for the withdrawal of the windy bits of the 116 and the fact what is currently the Moorooka Station stop on the 100 will no longer be served with high frequency).

Or not, considering the 100 will probably be kept now.