Road Infrastructure Craziness

[#Metro]

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/political-news/coalition-backdown-on-roads-promise-20121225-2bvap.html

Mr Abbott has promised $1.5 billion to the WestConnex motorway, $1.5 billion to the east-west link and $1 billion to the Gateway extension road in Brisbane.
The O'Farrell government has committed $1.8 billion to the WestConnex road, expected to cost $10 billion to $15 billion.


Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/opinion/political-news/coalition-backdown-on-roads-promise-20121225-2bvap.html#ixzz2G9trSq5R

OMG WasteConnex!! And another $1 billion thrown at the Gateway again!! Seriously, they should start paving with coins, it would be cheaper... And how on Earth are you going to find $10 - $15 BILLION. I mean, the numbers really really start to make my head hurt! This is concrete fiesta gone turbocharged!!

[HappyTrainGuy]

In all fairness the Gateway upgrades are needed. Northbound 5 lanes from multiple heavily trafficed areas (Airport/Eagle Farm-Pinkenba-Murrarie-Lytton-Port Of Brisbane-Southside industrial estates/Gold Coast-Logan directions and Airport/Eagle Farm/City-Toombul) all converge onto a 3 lane section of road. It stays 3 lanes to the Nudgee Road on ramp before going to 2 lanes for the Nudgee Road off ramp. That two lane section then takes heavy traffic from Nudgee Road which access the Northgate, Nudgee, Banyo, Virginia and Geebung industrial estates. Traffic then flows back onto the Sandgate road corridor which is a nightmare for traffic especially in peak hour. Toombul road, Nudgee Road, Sandgate Road (Virginia-Nundah section) and St Vincents Road become heavily congested or just plain difficult to access/drive between areas. The 310/315 are just a joke in peak hour between Virginia-Beams Road-Gateway onramp @ Boondall. 306 doesn't even run that way depending on the time. Level crossings (Northgate/Banyo) backs up traffic as well. Check out that roundabout outside Virginia railway station during peak hour to see how traffic can be backed up in all directions. That being said Sandgate road could do with it being widened as its current layout of 3 lanes - 2 lanes - 3 lanes - 2 lanes creates a massive bottleneck. That bottleneck then flows back along Toombul Road which then impacts the gateway and associated roads. Off peak Sandgate road can clear while off peak the Gateway can be bumper to bumper regardless.

[ozbob]

Rather than billions on roads that in them selves are going to do little in the big picture, sort out the level crossings particularly Melbourne and Brisbane.  This will have a much more broader positive effect in improving the road network and rail reliability as well. 

[somebody]

I'm very sceptical that they will find a private sector backer to pay $8bn for WasteConnex, so it may not happen.

With the Gateway, if they didn't duplicate the bridge it mightn't be needed to the same degree.  And how about putting a decent service on the Caboolture line out of peak/peak direction?  I'm not impressed by the argument that we need more roads to cater to peak hour commuters.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I'm not impressed by the argument that we need more roads to cater to peak hour commuters.

Major road corridors are no different than the railways and need to be upgraded the same as train tracks do. The Gateway moreso because it can be bumper to bumper at 12.30 in the afternoon just because of the setup of so many routes converging on one area which forces more heavier congestion onto other corridors. Yes, the bridge duplication and associated road mods made it worse as it allowed more traffic to the bottleneck faster. It would be the equalivent of if Roma Street-Brunswick Street never got duplicated yet having all thse new spurs and lines being serviced. Travel on the 310/315 outbound along Sandgate Road in peak hour. Peak hour between Toombul-Beams Road can be over double the time that it takes offpeak just through the virginia area (~7-8mins offpeak. ~15mins+ peak). Because the Gateway is clogged people then proceed to the Sandgate road corridor which has people going northbound and to the Banyo/Nudgee area. People heading to the Banyo/Nudgee area get caught at the roundabout which creates congestion futher back along Sandgate Road. As it is now during peak hour the railway lines make it worse as level crossings force people into particular routes eg the Nundha-Northgate level crossing shortcut gets blown out because of the railway line frequency. There are new developments already going up outside the airport off Moreton Drive so expect the area to become even more congested as they utilise the Gateway and Southern Cross Way.

Widening Sandgate road to 3 lanes past the bus depot would help with merging traffic from Toombul Road onto Sandgate Road. Widening the Gateway aswell would help with the multiple bottlenecks and get traffic moving better flowing though the Virginia, Nudgee, Banyo areas.

[somebody]

Travel on the 310/315 outbound along Sandgate Road in peak hour. Peak hour between Toombul-Beams Road can be over double the time that it takes offpeak just through the virginia area (~7-8mins offpeak. ~15mins+ peak).

*cough* Bus Lanes *cough*

[achiruel]

A large part of the problem with Gateway is there is largely NO decent public transport in many of the areas it services, This could be done at a much lower cost (IMO) than endless upgrades.  Run FREQUENT buses along the Gateway Mwy, with interchanges at crossroads (Wynnum, Old Cleveland, Mt Gravatt-Capalaba etc).  Extend or improve frequency of buses as required to meet these interchanges e.g. improve frequency of 250 to interchange at Old Cleveland Rd, have a Wynnum Rd BUZ for interchange at Wynnum Rd.  Need a route from Garden City to Mt-Gravatt-Capalaba Rd Interchange.

I would have it go via Southern Cross Way once over the bridge, Probably you would need a new bus only off-ramp at Queensport Rd to interchange with 590.  There might need to be some changes to traffic arrangments to allow re-entry from Airport Drive where it can connect with 369, although I don't know if that's even possible anymore after that stupid tunnel has been built.  Maybe just have it continue along Nudgee/Toombul Rd and terminate at Northgate Station, where those going further north can change to train for their further journeys.  I don't think there's really much point in continuing along the Gateway past here..  Yes I realise a proper terminus/turnaround would need to be built at Northgate.  I am no civil engineer but I reckon most of these things could be done for around $400 million.  Less than the EB cost and a hell of a lot more useful IMO!

[HappyTrainGuy]

Travel on the 310/315 outbound along Sandgate Road in peak hour. Peak hour between Toombul-Beams Road can be over double the time that it takes offpeak just through the virginia area (~7-8mins offpeak. ~15mins+ peak).

*cough* Bus Lanes *cough*

That makes congestion even worse for very little benefit,

[HappyTrainGuy]

A large part of the problem with Gateway is there is largely NO decent public transport in many of the areas it services, This could be done at a much lower cost (IMO) than endless upgrades.  Run FREQUENT buses along the Gateway Mwy, with interchanges at crossroads (Wynnum, Old Cleveland, Mt Gravatt-Capalaba etc).  Extend or improve frequency of buses as required to meet these interchanges e.g. improve frequency of 250 to interchange at Old Cleveland Rd, have a Wynnum Rd BUZ for interchange at Wynnum Rd.  Need a route from Garden City to Mt-Gravatt-Capalaba Rd Interchange.

I would have it go via Southern Cross Way once over the bridge, Probably you would need a new bus only off-ramp at Queensport Rd to interchange with 590.  There might need to be some changes to traffic arrangments to allow re-entry from Airport Drive where it can connect with 369, although I don't know if that's even possible anymore after that stupid tunnel has been built.  Maybe just have it continue along Nudgee/Toombul Rd and terminate at Northgate Station, where those going further north can change to train for their further journeys.  I don't think there's really much point in continuing along the Gateway past here..  Yes I realise a proper terminus/turnaround would need to be built at Northgate.  I am no civil engineer but I reckon most of these things could be done for around $400 million.  Less than the EB cost and a hell of a lot more useful IMO!

To the north just extend the current 306 services instead of this stupid Nudgee beach, Nudgee and Toombul terminus. In the morning I'm pretty sure some outbound services start at the first stop after the roundabout. Nothing futher than that as Boondall/deagon is serviced via the Sandgate road corridor.

[Mr X]

Is he committing to the East West Link in Brisbane?? That project is dead, I believe Quirk stated that under the new CityPlan (?), Legacy Way is the last toll tunnel to be built in Brisbane.

I believe a good road network is just as important as a good PT one. Seeing as it's part of the federal road network, the northern section of the Gateway greatly needs to be upgraded. It should be at least 3, possibly 4 lanes each way from the Nudgee Road exit to the Bruce Highway merger. The Bruce should be upgraded between Caboolture and Caloundra turn off (to be 3 lanes each way), that section gets congested so often it's not even funny.

That doesn't diminish the need for CRR or a full upgrade of the NCL to Nambour though, roads shouldn't be our only source of freight movement.

[#Metro]

The Gateway provides a nice fast run to the northside, and I've always wondered if a circumferential busway could be retrofitted to it. If it carries THAT much traffic and the traffic is THAT slow, it might be an idea.

[achiruel]

I believe a good road network is just as important as a good PT one. Seeing as it's part of the federal road network, the northern section of the Gateway greatly needs to be upgraded. It should be at least 3, possibly 4 lanes each way from the Nudgee Road exit to the Bruce Highway merger. The Bruce should be upgraded between Caboolture and Caloundra turn off (to be 3 lanes each way), that section gets congested so often it's not even funny.

Build CAMCOS+Duplicate NCL and you might well see a lot of that traffic goes away.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I believe a good road network is just as important as a good PT one. Seeing as it's part of the federal road network, the northern section of the Gateway greatly needs to be upgraded. It should be at least 3, possibly 4 lanes each way from the Nudgee Road exit to the Bruce Highway merger.

Nudgee Road is not enough. It has to go back to the Gateway Motorway/Southern Cross Way merger. Northbound Southern Cross way is two lanes that merges into one lane of traffic and the new Gateway merges from 3 lanes to 2 lanes which is the first of the bottlenecks. The second bottleneck comes when they merge together to form 3 lanes with one being the exit lane for Nudgee Road which then continues on as two lanes. The third bottleneck is the northbound Nudgee Road onramp merging into 2 lanes of traffic. Southbound its all two lanes but once it gets to the Southern Cross Way exit 3 lanes continue onto the new Gateway Motorway while 2 lanes form the exit onto Southern Cross Way (4 lanes wide: 1 lane must exit, 1 lane exit or continue thru, 2 lanes thru). Southbound can be congested at times but not even close compared to the mess of a traffic jam northbound can be.

The Gateway provides a nice fast run to the northside, and I've always wondered if a circumferential busway could be retrofitted to it. If it carries THAT much traffic and the traffic is THAT slow, it might be an idea.

I don't really like that idea. It would be fast but it would just duplicate the existing railway line and would serve a limited catchment. I reckon said money could be better spent by pumping it into the railway line for 15 min services. Get the Banyo Workshops to have a stabling yard and allow for Northgate terminators (Caboolture/Nambour/Kippa Ring run limited express to Northgate and maybe look into Shorncliffe joining that list too with the Northgate terminators. Designing a proper feeder bus network for surrounding areas (306/310/311/312/314/315/325/326/327/335 etc etc). Upgrade Boondall North station for a proper rail bridge along with providing better lighting along that walkway beside it to Deagon. Buz the 310/half hourly but it must have a longer span of operating hours as people live beyond the catchment of Sandgate station! Maybe consider a full time local 306 northern loop that interchanges with the stations around Nudgee-Banyo along with the industrial/business estate just off the gateway.

[Arnz]

I believe a good road network is just as important as a good PT one. Seeing as it's part of the federal road network, the northern section of the Gateway greatly needs to be upgraded. It should be at least 3, possibly 4 lanes each way from the Nudgee Road exit to the Bruce Highway merger. The Bruce should be upgraded between Caboolture and Caloundra turn off (to be 3 lanes each way), that section gets congested so often it's not even funny.

That doesn't diminish the need for CRR or a full upgrade of the NCL to Nambour though, roads shouldn't be our only source of freight movement.

I still think the NCL duplication and re-alignment beyond Beerburrum Station should take precedence over the Bruce Highway 3 laning beyond the Pumicestone Road turnoff at most. 

Traffic between Caboolture and Caloundra isn't that bad except for School/Public Holidays.  Peak hour isn't that stop-start atm to justify 3 laning to Caloundra turnoff yet.

I'd say redirect the Bruce Highway money into fixing up the southbound lanes (between the old Moby Vics (now Shell) and Glasshouse turnoff) first.  Rough Surface "Warning" signs have already errected on that stretch of road.

[Mr X]

Caloundra Road exit at least needs a merging lane added for southbound mergers. It's a death trap.

[somebody]

Travel on the 310/315 outbound along Sandgate Road in peak hour. Peak hour between Toombul-Beams Road can be over double the time that it takes offpeak just through the virginia area (~7-8mins offpeak. ~15mins+ peak).

*cough* Bus Lanes *cough*

That makes congestion even worse for very little benefit,

In the short term in that location, yes.  I would hardly call the Sydney Harbour Bridge lane adding to congestion though.  Nor the former Lutwyche Rd or current Mains Rd transit lanes if you insist on Brisbane examples.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yes, and how many lanes does the Sydney Harbour bridge have. These are two very different areas. Those corridors have the buses, the frequency, the patronage and the road layout behind them to support it. Sandgate Road is very different. A bus lane just won't work in that area what so ever no matter how you try to compare it to other examples. Its between two large industrial areas which differ in finishing times compared to those from the city. PT is non existant. You have trucks/large vehicles mixed in with peak hour traffic. The same again with trucks from Nudgee merging into traffic from the city to access the industrial estates or shops on the left. Sometimes trucks can block the entire lane so traffic backs up on the thru lanes despite there being green lights. Even if a bus lane goes through after the roundabout that just puts more congestion into the Virginia-Toombul section as everyone moves to form 1 lane instead of the previous 2 lanes. Add it before it aswell and you'll have cars backing all the way to the city as you'll reduce it to one lane with the heavy congestion created by those waiting to use the roundabout. Most congestion is already cleared by 5.30pm-5.45pm with traffic moving at off peak speeds again. All the congestion is created by the stupid amounts of lane width changes, the poor setup of the northern part of the gateway motorway and peak hour traffic funneling through the middle of an industrial estate.

Just go there and observe how it flows as traffic on the right wants to go left while traffic on the left wants to go right.

[colinw]

I thought the "Gateway extension road" mentioned in the original post was the proposed extension of the Gateway Motorway to meet the Mt Lindesay Hwy at Park Ridge.

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Projects/Name/P/Park-Ridge-Connector.aspx

[Gazza]

It's what i read it as too.
Shame, that project is really just a line and upside down "T" on the map at the moment, but i bet it overtakes some of the PT projects which well and truly have planning done for them.