2013 Fares

[ozbob]

History often repeats ...

[Gazza]

Up until a few years ago, the discount for an off peak return ticket on Cityrail was 40%, now reduced to 30%.

I don't understand why you (Gazza) are arguing this point.  Do you dispute the information that peak is still growing slightly, while off peak is shrinking?

Because I'd rather the money be used to grow offpeak with actual buses and trains running more frequently, not pissy discounts.

[somebody]

Up until a few years ago, the discount for an off peak return ticket on Cityrail was 40%, now reduced to 30%.

I don't understand why you (Gazza) are arguing this point.  Do you dispute the information that peak is still growing slightly, while off peak is shrinking?

Because I'd rather the money be used to grow offpeak with actual buses and trains running more frequently, not pissy discounts.

Pretty pointless to expand the service with fares that ensure shrinking usage.

[Gazza]

So you propose reducing base fares, but by a smaller amount than otherwise, and then using the remainder to give a bigger offpeak discount?

[somebody]

So you propose reducing base fares, but by a smaller amount than otherwise, and then using the remainder to give a bigger offpeak discount?

For the sake of argument: Yes.

[Gazza]

Gotcha, in that case it becomes an argument of managing peak demand/overcrowding, versus increasing patronage overall.

Me, I really am of the mindset that fares should be as low as financially possible, and uniform as possible (In other words, pay for all trips, but cheaply)

[somebody]

Gotcha, in that case it becomes an argument of managing peak demand/overcrowding, versus increasing patronage overall.

Me, I really am of the mindset that fares should be as low as financially possible, and uniform as possible (In other words, pay for all trips, but cheaply)

You are assuming that there would be lower overall patronage from that.  I'm not sure how you have arrived at that position.  Seems clear that the opposite would be the case.

[Gazza]

Well, if you intend to have more of a differential between peak and off peak that implies demand management through, which could also imply deterred patronage....If it costs more to travel in peak hour than you want to pay, when you really need to, you might not bother with PT at all.

Melbourne no longer has off peak discounts, except for the early bird special, right?

[somebody]

Melbourne no longer has off peak discounts, except for the early bird special, right?

There is also the $3.30 flat daily fare on weekends.

I'm not at all a fan of the Melbourne approach.

[ozbob]

Myki money  http://www.myki.com.au/Fares/Metro-fares

Daily zone 1 -2 capped $11.08

Daily zone 1 capped $6.56

Daily zone 2 capped $4.52

Seniors daily cap $3.60

Seniors free weekends/hols

Also 2 hr fares ..

All others flat $3.30 weekends/hols

[kazzac]

Yes I agree that paper tickets should be scrapped next year ,I used a daily  Metcard while in Melbourne recently but these will soon be unavailable.even occasional PT users should have a go card,I still prefer to use mine then have to buy a paper ticket, even though I now might only use PT once a month.and no fare increase next year either!!!

[SurfRail]

There is also the $3.30 flat daily fare on weekends.

I'm not at all a fan of the Melbourne approach.

Melbourne trams and trains are PACKED all weekend.  Something is obviously working for them.

[#Metro]

Melbourne trams and trains are PACKED all weekend.  Something is obviously working for them.

Yes. It's the frequency. 10 minutes all day on some lines...

[ozbob]

The flat fare preceded the frequency.  The extra trains were added as a result of the ticketing policy encouraging people on to the trains in a big way.  Reinforced by good frequency, the trains really shunt the pax around on the weekends, independent of the football too.

[ozbob]

Twitter

10m TransLink SEQ ‏@TransLinkSEQ

@robert_dow There's no exact date yet, but the 2013 TransLink fare tables will be available next month. We'll let you know when they're up.

I have sent a tweet to TransLink but don't hold your breath ...

================

Twitter

2h Robert Dow ‏@Robert_Dow

@TransLinkSEQ Any idea when the 2013 fare tables will be made available publicly please?

[somebody]

Bummer.  I wonder if there will be an increase to the off peak discount?  I wonder what of paper?

[ozbob]

Twitter

Robyn Ironside ‏@ironsider

Funny to hear Transport Minister declare they're "lowering the cost of living" by raising fares 7.5 per cent..instead of 15. #qldpol

[kazzac]

There is also the $3.30 flat daily fare on weekends.

I'm not at all a fan of the Melbourne approach.

Melbourne trams and trains are PACKED all weekend.  Something is obviously working for them.

luckily I was there during the week then and not on the weekend!

[somebody]

If we go to 30% off peak discount, that is still cheaper than present, even with the 7.5% increase.  25% off peak discount would be about line ball.

[ozbob]

Ministerial Statements
http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/hansard/2012/2012_11_27_DAILY.pdf

Public Transport; Bruce Highway
Hon. SA EMERSON (Indooroopilly—LNP) (Minister for Transport and Main Roads) (9.54 am):
Queensland is a great state that deserves a great transport network. The Newman government has a
number of initiatives to improve people's transport options. A key priority is to make public transport
more affordable, reliable and frequent. The nine-and-free initiative is one way we are improving
affordability. This provides free travel after nine journeys taken each week. We are also lowering the
cost of living by halving Labor's planned 15 per cent fare increase. The Ferny Grove rail line now has a
train every 15 minutes during the day, Monday to Friday. These more frequent services are great news
for local residents. We are also seeing improvements to rail reliability. This is after falling to three-year
lows during the dying days of the previous Labor government.
We have also simplified the way public transport is delivered across the state. TransLink will now
have responsibility for passenger services across the state. This includes regional airlines, coach and
ferry services. Having one organisation means less duplication, better planning and better integration.
The Newman government is very focused on improving the Bruce Highway. We recently released
our Out of the crisis report. It identifies more than 50 capacity and flood mitigation projects and hundreds
of kilometres of safety treatments to be delivered during the next 10 years. These include wider centre
lines, audible edge lines, more overtaking lanes, intersection upgrades and upgrades to flood prone
areas. There are a range of projects up and down the coast. We have projects like the Ingham to
Cardwell deviation for flood mitigation and the Mackay Ring Road stage 1 construction which is a
capacity project. There are many more projects and I would urge people to have a look at the plan which
is available on the Transport and Main Roads website. Labor left the Bruce Highway in a crisis, with the
RACQ predicting between 300 and 400 road deaths occurring in the next 10 years if we do not take
action. The Newman government will honour its election commitment and contribute an additional
$1 billion over the next 10 years. We also need the federal government to come to the table with its
share of the funding.
If you are looking for a silver lining to 14 years of Labor, it would have to be that it gives you a lot
of opportunity to make things better. We are doing just that as we build a better future and a better
transport network for Queensland.

Would appear that they intend to proceed with the 7.5% fare increase, stand by ....

You don't lower the cost of living by increasing fare prices 4 to 5 times CPI, or in my case 75 times my DFRDB pension increase, deluded spin.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

28th November 2012

If you say something enough, does it become true?

Greetings,

Yesterday in Parliament Minister Emerson again ran the line that by only increasing fares by 7.5% they a " lowering the cost of living ".

http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/hansard/2012/2012_11_27_DAILY.pdf

What nonsense.

Further fare increases on top of the 65% over the past 4 years will just add to the massive concern with fare affordability generally.

7.5% is 3 to 4 times the present CPI.  7.5% is 75 times my DFRDB pension increase.

Does the LNP Government actually think that by repeating nonsense spin it somehow becomes a truism?  Sorry, it just confirms how distant you are actually becoming from reality and the people.

What will make fares more affordable  is to sort out the failing fare structure.

We have a petition calling for a fare review.  The response has been very significant.
See -->  http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/fare-review-for-translink-south-east-queensland-now.html

Other jurisdictions have fares that are socially equitable, encourage people to use public transport, with massive economic benefits for the community.

Time to get on with it TransLink and Government.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[somebody]

Because I'd rather the money be used to grow offpeak with actual buses and trains running more frequently, not pissy discounts.

So your plan is to increase the fares again, stick with 20% off peak discount, and put the money back into services?  I.e. the ALP policy - if not, then what are you saying?

[colinw]

I'm curious as to where the money for extra services, or indeed even the justification for extra services, will come from if patronage is in free-fall.  Which it will be if we keep putting fares up at well over CPI, making public transport increasingly less cost effective than driving your car.

The horse is dead, perhaps it is time to dismount.

[somebody]

I'm curious as to where the money for extra services, or indeed even the justification for extra services, will come from if patronage is in free-fall.  Which it will be if we keep putting fares up at well over CPI, making public transport increasingly less cost effective than driving your car.

The horse is dead, perhaps it is time to dismount.

I say drop fares by 3.25% EDIT minimum /EDIT and bring back 10 then free.  No one is worse off as compared to the political promise.

[ozbob]

Mr Emerson again highlighted in parliament this week, how wonderful they were in that the fares were only going up 7.5% ...  looks like they might go up as planned.  Although, publication of the 2013 fares is very late compared to previous form, so maybe they are still deciding what to do even if they are locked  into the 7.5% increase in their heads.

I expect a very significant public backlash this time around, unless there are a few carrots as well ...

[ozbob]

From the Couriermail click here!

Children can join Santa on Santa Express

Children can join Santa on Santa Express

    by: Robyn Ironside
    From: The Courier-Mail
    December 10, 2012 9:32AM

DESPITE a jam-packed schedule, the jolly man in red has found time to board the Santa Express - coming soon to a train station near you.

For this week only, children can join Santa on board the special train service for the cost of a normal fare, to sing Christmas carols and score a free candy cane.

Although state schools are still in, a Queensland Rail spokeswoman said Santa was not available any other week in the lead-up to Christmas.

"Santa is a very busy man, but he's made a special exception to join us on the Santa Express which will travel across the South-East Queensland rail network," said Customer Service Executive General Manager Martin Ryan.

The full Santa Express timetable is available on the Queensland Rail website (www.qr.com.au).

The spreading of Christmas cheer coincides with this week's release of the 2013 fare schedule for commuters incorporating a 7.5 per cent increase in the cost of public transport tickets.

Although the fare hike is only half of what was scheduled to occur under the previous Labor government, commuter group Back on Track condemned the increase, which is almost four times Queensland's inflation rate.

From January 7, a zone one go card fare will rise from $3.05 to $3.28, while the cost of a zone one paper ticket will jump from $4.50 to $4.84.

Commuters travelling two zones - the most common type of journey, will pay $3.85 each way instead of $3.58 - while the paper ticket fare will rise from $5.20 to $5.59.

Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow said the fare hikes came on top of a 65 per cent increase in the cost of public transport over the past four years.

"Affordability is still a major issue for commuters and we're concerned that continued fare increases have driven people away from public transport," said Mr Dow.

"We think this latest increase will lead to a further loss in patronage, and we'd again call for an urgent review of the fare system."

The June quarter edition of the Translink Tracker report showed only 47 per cent of train commuters thought fares were more affordable than paying for parking.

Although the figure was a slight improvement on the previous quarter, Mr Dow said it showed initiatives such as the "nine journeys then free" were not perceived as making fares more attractive.

"The government really needs to look at other jurisdictions in Australia and overseas, and start thinking how they can create a more socially equitable fare system that increases the fare box and reduces the subsidised component," he said.

Transport Minister Scott Emerson has previously ruled out a fare review, saying he had examined the issue while in Opposition and no further reviews were planned.

[somebody]

And paper tickets are remaining too.  I was wondering if they would take this opportunity to remove them.

[ozbob]

And paper tickets are remaining too.  I was wondering if they would take this opportunity to remove them.

Yep, appears so.  Haven't seen the fare tables yet and not on website as of now.  They are seriously underestimating the fare price backlash that will be generated I expect.  It is getting to point where it is just rather embarrassing now for TransLink ..     <-- TransLink staff

The government is just delusional ...

[somebody]

Is it a good time to raise the off peak discount?

[ozbob]

Is it a good time to raise the off peak discount?

Could be, I haven't heard if there is anything else to go with the 7.5% fare increase. 

Because of the fare price imbalance they probably won't do anything because they fear further  fare box erosion.  Well it is already eroding and is just going to get worse from here.  They need to completely restructure and get max pax around the clock.  Other jurisdictions can do it, all too hard for Queensland.

The other question is what is happening to Q Connect fares in 2013?  7.5% increases too??

[petey3801]

Something that surprised me in the Netherlands: While the fare prices are a bit high, they get the services to go with it! Generally quite high frequencies (ie: most places have 15min services, others more), express trains all day every day, fast journey times etc.etc.
On the day I was due to fly home (a Sunday, no less), we caught the train from Lelystad to Schiphol Airport. Trackwork was happening on the Flevoline (Weesp [junction for the line to Utrecht] to Lelystad) between Almere Centrum and Weesp (http://theballisround.me/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Dutch-grounds.gif - the Flevoline is just to the right of Amsterdam on that map).
There were 15min services running from early morning from Lelystad to Almere Centrum (we caught the 0633 service by memory). On departure from Almere Centrum on the bus (a bit before 7am), the bus was at least 3/4 full... At 7am on a Sunday morning... It just goes to show what frequency and proper service planning can actually achieve!

[petey3801]

I agree things could be better in Brisbane, but need to becareful comparing to places in Europe too much.

My ansertery is Dutch based and I have a fairly good idea of how its been there for a veru long time. My distant rels in Holland thought my grandfather who was a organ tuner/repairer by trade, lived in a wooded 3bed house, 1 bath room on 0.75-1ac of land at Killara Syd on edge of Land Cove National Park which he bought in mid 1950's was rich. Yes today the land is worth a mint, but not when he bought it. It was considered half way to Brisbane.

His cars of choice, usually 10 year old Ford Falcon's didn't help as they thought these were Limo's, yet realistically they were in just ok condition and compared to his rels back home he got to park off the street. If they were lucky to afford a car, it was tiny and on street, somewhere.

A few photos of Amsterdam

http://www.holland.com/global/tourism/Article/quarters-of-amsterdam.htm
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Tourism-g188590-Amsterdam_North_Holland_Province-Vacations.html

Australia is a modern developed western society which also is car based with a population of Holland, but many times bigger and more spread out. I agree the use of cars needs to be reduced and even the most pro PT govt would take 20-40years to achieve 10% of what Europe does. Australia is however not Europe and hoepfully never will be. Much of Europe can also not afford to allow their cities to try and match places like Australia in car usage, they would stop. However that doesn't mean they don't use cars, they do and they do alot. Along side their highly developed railways are often modern road ways, far more modern than what most of us get to drive on. The advantages of higher density living with low pop growth rates, they can afford both, we can barely afford either.

My grandfather not that long ago left us, when my grandmother joins him the difference between their house in Killara and my rels in Holland is that, their houses will live on. My grandparents house will most likely be demolished and redeveloped into higher density living, however I doubt it will be as high as my rels in Holland.

Moral of the story, Europe does alot of things great, we can learn, but not cut and paste and we can certainly learn from that high fares are not the pathway forward.

Regards
Shane

Absolutely agree that we can't just copy and paste, my point was more to do with how much proper planning (both normal transport planning as well as trackwork planning) and decent frequencies can change how a transport system is viewed and used.

I'd be careful when saying a lot of Europe has more modern roads than we do, however. In a number of cases, our highways are just as good (if not sometimes better, even if slower speed limits) as a lot of highways in Europe.

Proper planning results in a proper transport network with proper frequencies.

[Jonno]

Agree just cut and pasting is not smart but discounting leading practice simply because we are at a different starting point is just as stupid.

In Aus we talk about our open spaces yet we are not providing the range or volume of housing needed.  Each weekend people cram into the few enjoyable urban 'places'. We bitch that we can't get a car park at the shopping centre or complain it is expensive.  We drive to the gym to get fit.  We air condition our home because their designed badly!

Yes we are not Europe but there is a lot to be learnt from there and other leading cities. Vancouver! Portland!

In Ais we still hoping the same mistakes we made over the last 40 years are miraculously going to reduce congestion, cost of living and taxes. 

"Tell e'm there dreaming"

[Jonno]

Back to Australia, if I had my way the following would be implemented
- Low density resdidential developments to have min Greenspace which includes bush, parks, childs play grounds and open grass play areas within 15min walk of any household in development. The size is hard to define here.

- High density high rise, must provide open space with some vegitation (yes it can happy, I'll quote my place in Dubai as excellent example and prior to here I hated high rise living and I have small children)

- All windows double glazed, roofs light coloured etc etc

- Radial paths through developments to major PT stations (bus, ferry or rail)

- No house or commerical access direct to major roads.

Off topic I know...but our neighbourhoods need to be built on the following principles:

1. Walkability

- Most things within a 10-minute walk of home and work
- Pedestrian friendly street design (buildings close to street; porches, windows & doors; tree-lined streets; on street parking; hidden parking lots; garages in rear lane; narrow, slow speed streets)
- Complete streets shared by all.  Cars do not dominate.
- Pedestrian streets free of cars in special cases or shared zones where pedestrains have priority
- Minimal to no on-site car parking

2. Connectivity

- Interconnected street grid network disperses traffic & eases walking
- A hierarchy of narrow streets, boulevards, and alleys
- High quality pedestrian network and public realm makes walking pleasurable
- Commerical/Neighbourthood Centres on main roads to facilitate high frequency transit (no walkabout routes).

3. Mixed-Use & Diversity

- A mix of shops, offices, apartments, and homes on site. Mixed-use within neighborhoods, within blocks, and within buildings
- Diversity of people - of ages, income levels, cultures, and races
- Each and every suburb has a mix with the centre having 3-4 storey development - 200m radius.
- Density around District Centres has 6-8 storey - 800m radius.
- Town Centres higher again to unlimited.
- well designed open/public places

4. Mixed Housing

- A range of types, sizes and prices in closer proximity
- Granny Flats, Duplexes, Garage Top Flats,
- Development Controls based on location not use unless industrial.

5. Quality Architecture & Urban Design

- Emphasis on beauty, aesthetics, human comfort, and creating a sense of place;
- Special placement of civic uses and sites within community. -
- Human scale architecture & beautiful surroundings nourish the human spirit
- Designed for environment (aka no brick boxes that need to be air conditioned in summer and heated in winter)

6. Traditional Neighborhood Structure

-Discernable center and edge
-Public space at center
-Importance of quality public realm; public open space designed as civic art
-Contains a range of uses and densities within 10-minute walk
-Transect planning: Highest densities at town center; progressively less dense towards the edge. The transect is an analytical system that conceptualizes mutually reinforcing elements, creating a series of specific natural habitats and/or urban lifestyle settings.  The Transect integrates environmental methodology for habitat assessment with zoning methodology for community design.  The professional boundary between the natural and man-made disappears, enabling environmentalists to assess the design of the human habitat and the urbanists to support the viability of nature. This urban-to-rural transect hierarchy has appropriate building and street types for each area along the continuum.

7. Increased Density

-More buildings, residences, shops, and services closer together for ease of walking, to enable a more efficient use of services and resources, and to create a more convenient, enjoyable place to live.

[HappyTrainGuy]

You've really got to start living in the real world mate and stop expecting all that happening each time someone develops a block of land.

[SurfRail]

You've really got to start living in the real world mate and stop expecting all that happening each time someone develops a block of land.

I think we're mainly talkiing about your Stocklands, Australands, Mirvacs, Delfins, Sekisuis etc moreso than a baby boomer couple building a duplex on their vacant lot at Kenmore.

[Stillwater]

Jonno, you might feel best at home in Canberra

[Jonno]

You've really got to start living in the real world mate and stop expecting all that happening each time someone develops a block of land.

Would that be the real world where there is not enough variety in housing choice driving house prices up, congested roads, unsafe major roads, single use commercial centres, peopke drive for almoat 80% of trips, over 60% of kids get driven to their local school, poor public transport frequencies, bankrupt Govts and Toll Roads, high obesity levels, 1300+ people killed on our tds, billions in road trauma costs, eyc.

That is exactly why we need to change our development controls and planning.  They way we make our city develop today is creating these problems. Doing more of the same is making it worse.

The fundamentals are their in the majority of suburbs we just need to let them develop using the principles above.  That is allow it to happen rather than make sure it doesn't.

PS As an past Planner in Canverra that is exactly where I learnt how not to develop our suburbs!!

[ozbob]

From the Brisbane mx 11th December 2012 page 6

Give us a farer deal

[somebody]

Other jurisdictions have touch ons becoming off peak at different times in different locations.  e.g. Ipswich might become off peak after 8am, Darra after 8:30am, Milton after 9am.

I'd also wonder if it would make sense to have touch ons before a certain time in the morning becoming off peak.  So AM peak touch ons would be:
Elimbah-Gympie North 2am-8am
Ipswich-Redbank 6am-8am
Goodna-Corinda 6:30am-8:30am

This could probably be developed quite a bit.

Two questions, should we be going with such a structure?  Is it technically achievable without spending a gazillion dollars?