2013 Fares

[BrizCommuter]

I don't agree with CPI increases only. With that you'd only get CPI service increases which is actually code for 'no new services'. Not the kind of system I'd like.

2009/10 - 20% fare increase, 3% train service km increase
2010/11 - 15% fare rise, 1.8% train service km increase
Can't quite see the huge fare rise equating to improved services?

[ozbob]

How would you see a daily cap working Simon?

Clearly with 23 zones a flat cap is not going to work across the board.

A dynamic cap is actually quite fair.  For example someone who does a 5 zone commute, can do a number of additional journeys 5 zones or less during the day evening as suits for the capped fare.

It is only an example of how it could work.  I am not necessarily in favour of it, providing there are other things done to improve the fare table/structure as I have indicated that would be enough.

[ozbob]

I don't agree with CPI increases only. With that you'd only get CPI service increases which is actually code for 'no new services'. Not the kind of system I'd like.

2009/10 - 20% fare increase, 3% train service km increase
2010/11 - 15% fare rise, 1.8% train service km increase
Can't quite see the huge fare rise equating to improved services?

ROFL  ....  theoretical clap trap abounds Briz. 

Perhaps a few people should get out and see how real fare systems are structured ..

[ozbob]

Fares need to be affordable STB, do that and the fare box looks after itself.

[Mr X]

How about a cap to the maximum
number of zones a person goes through in a day, x2.5. There can even be an offpeak and peak cap, if you like.

Eg. Someone from zone 2 who travels in peak hour has a daily cap of $9.63, so after 2 peak journeys, the most they have to pay for travel for the rest of the day is $1.93, provided they stay within zone 2.
Someone from zone 2 who travels in offpeak has a daily cap of $7.70, provided they don't travel in peak hour (which should be retimed), if they do then the peak cap applies.

Under the old dailies/off peak dailies, it was 2x the price of a single ticket, but i don't think that's fair as someone who travels to the city and back then has free travel for the rest of the day :-/ but if we think that worked, then the above can be changed to 2x the go card fare not 2.5x.

Capping should not be available for paper tickets.

[ozbob]

How about a cap to the maximum
number of zones a person goes through in a day, x2.5. There can even be an offpeak and peak cap, if you like.

Eg. Someone from zone 2 who travels in peak hour has a daily cap of $9.63, so after 2 peak journeys, the most they have to pay for travel for the rest of the day is $1.93, provided they stay within zone 2.
Someone from zone 2 who travels in offpeak has a daily cap of $7.70, provided they don't travel in peak hour (which should be retimed), if they do then the peak cap applies.

Yep, basically what I said ... LOL

[Mr X]

I like your idea though I thought you meant the cap was up to zone 23 for everyone, which was slightly confusing

[ozbob]

I have posted the dynamic daily algorithm many times before, that is why I didn't go into great detail ..

eg.

The original proposal by the go card reference group for a daily cap was two x highest journey + loading eg. 30% of that journey.

So someone who commuted from zone 3 to zone 1 daily peak, their cap would be $10.49 (2013 fares)

They could travel to and from the City in the evening for $1.37 under this sort of cap.

Some people have selective retention ...

[somebody]

How would you see a daily cap working Simon?

Clearly with 23 zones a flat cap is not going to work across the board.

A dynamic cap is actually quite fair.  For example someone who does a 5 zone commute, can do a number of additional journeys 5 zones or less during the day evening as suits for the capped fare.

It is only an example of how it could work.  I am not necessarily in favour of it, providing there are other things done to improve the fare table/structure as I have indicated that would be enough.

Phew.  But that is in direct contradiction to what you said here:

Under the 23 zones, we have, the only way I think a daily cap could work would be highest journey in the 24 hour period x 2 (plus a possible loading), not withstanding a flat cap for certain concession groups ..

[Mr X]

FWIW I don't read every single post made on this site. I clearly hadn't seen it (and yes i have replied to that other thread too). Move along?

[ozbob]

@ Simon No, I perhaps should have said the highest journey a user makes in a 24 hour period  x 2 + a possible loading ..

I have posted it many times before  though .. and seriously do you think anyone would propose a 23 zone cap for all??

Come on ....

[ozbob]

But a dynamic algorithm is but a theoretical construct.  I am not real sure the go card system can do it.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Simon. Mostly the flagfall and pricing of shorter zones travelled compared to longer zones travelled but also sorting out the small random and uneven price difference between zones ie $1 for 1 zone, $2.04 for 2 zones, $3.02 for 3 zones, $3.99 for 4 zones, $5 for 5 zones etc etc etc (I can't be bothered to look at the new real pricing but you should get the point - to make it more simple and move the cost around ie long distance commuters aren't offset as much by those commuters going a zone or two).

[somebody]

@ Simon No, I perhaps should have said the highest journey a user makes in a 24 hour period  x 2 + a possible loading ..

I have posted it many times before  though .. and seriously do you think anyone would propose a 23 zone cap for all??

Come on ....

It even exists in WA.

[ozbob]

Dayrider cap is $11 = 1.18 times the dearest single fare smartrider, equivalent to the maximum cash fare  ...

But that is a jurisdiction that is interested in getting people onto public transport and has fare prices and structures that drive that.

A good case study contrasted to our miserable effort in SEQ ...

Dayrider provides unlimited all day travel on all Transperth services after 9.00am on weekdays and all day on weekends and public holidays.

A bit different to the dynamic go algorithm I suggested.  It takes into account the am peak trip as applicable.

http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/TicketsandFares.aspx

http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/TicketsandFares/Tickettypes.aspx

[somebody]

I would say that I would prefer the 2011 QLD fare structure to the WA fare structure:  A cap that is only useful to long distance users, no off peak discount, no frequent user scheme.

It's just the high fare levels that are really the problem here.

[ozbob]

Agree there with the high fare levels here, but also lacking in the social equity initiatives too ...

eg.

http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/TicketsandFares/Tickettypes.aspx

Seniors

Western Australian Seniors are entitled to travel for free on all Transperth services between 9.00am and 3.30pm Monday to Friday, all day Saturday and Sunday, as well as public holidays.

The free travel entitlements can only be accessed via SmartRider, Transperth's electronic ticketing system, so you must have a Seniors SmartRider to travel for free during these times.

Families/groups

FamilyRider allows unlimited system-wide travel for a group of up to seven people (two of whom can be standard fare passengers) on weekends and public holidays.

FamilyRider can also be used after 6.00pm Monday to Thursday, after 3.00pm on Fridays and after 9.00am on weekdays during school holidays.

$11

Also health care card holders get concession PT.  http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/TicketsandFares/ConcessionPasses.aspx

[#Metro]

And how much extra bus service was put on brizcommuter? Granted some funds were syphoned off for gimmicks...

Proof in the pudding... We will see what actually happens. It's the off peak fares that need to come down most.

[HappyTrainGuy]

If the fares aren't that expensive to start off with does there really need to be any type of cap system or frequent user discount?

If the whole fare system was sorted out, recharge points and cards similar to itunes/myer/amazon/phones etc that you see around, open up more users to concession cards, cheaper and the 9 then free removed the only type of discount system should be anything to do with a senior or family type based gocard either from a dedicated family gocard or the ability to link cards together with fares calculated based on touch on/off times (eg pay full fare when travelling with credit then applied to the accounts after the respective transfer time expiry/at night). And even then it should have strict rules like minimum balance on linked cards/linked credit card/primary card and account holder, weekends only, off peak only, not available during peak hour/peak hour surchage etc.

[ozbob]

Blog comments http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/government-rules-out-review-of-public-transport-zoning-20130111-2cl4h.html#comments

[ozbob]

I think the notion of a cap or FUD does protect revenue to some extent, as it allows a higher fare price than otherwise would be acceptable.

But it does give some relief to those who do use a lot of public transport for what ever reason, eg. uni students, those unable to drive for what ever reason and so forth.

The problem with SEQ at the moment is the fares are at two extremes, simultaneously, absurdly high cost base fares, and a ridiculous FUD like zero cost that is so easily rorted ....  so the lower end of the socio-economic scale is being battered a bit and this is starting to generate a lot of political grief.

[Stillwater]

Should we ascertain the cost of upgrading the SEQ go-card system to allow for a more flexible fare structure?  It may be that whatever IT upgrade money the government has in kitty would be earmarked for fixing the Health Department payroll system (more than $1 billion reportedly).

Is an IT upgrade for go-card the sticking point?

[somebody]

Agree there with the high fare levels here, but also lacking in the social equity initiatives too ...

eg.

http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/TicketsandFares/Tickettypes.aspx

Seniors

Western Australian Seniors are entitled to travel for free on all Transperth services between 9.00am and 3.30pm Monday to Friday, all day Saturday and Sunday, as well as public holidays.

The free travel entitlements can only be accessed via SmartRider, Transperth's electronic ticketing system, so you must have a Seniors SmartRider to travel for free during these times.

Families/groups

FamilyRider allows unlimited system-wide travel for a group of up to seven people (two of whom can be standard fare passengers) on weekends and public holidays.

FamilyRider can also be used after 6.00pm Monday to Thursday, after 3.00pm on Fridays and after 9.00am on weekdays during school holidays.

$11

Also health care card holders get concession PT.  http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/TicketsandFares/ConcessionPasses.aspx

The equability of such arrangements is pretty debatable.  They've already got a 50% discount, why's that not enough?

[ozbob]

Many are struggling.  Encouraging them out and about is good sense.  Improves health outcomes and saves money in the bigger picture.

[ozbob]

Many are struggling.  Encouraging them out and about is good sense.  Improves health outcomes and saves money in the bigger picture.

Some more views --> http://www.ncoss.org.au/resources/120531-Review-fares-CityRail-Services-from-2013.pdf

[#Metro]

I think concessions should be extended for health care card holders, I think we are all in agreement on that.
Group/Family ticketing isn't a equity measure. Group and family ticketing makes sense for entirely different reasons
and for the same reasons that movie theatres offer student discounts etc - if they didn't offer those discounts the seats would be empty and that would be a 100% loss. By using a discount they actually make some money.

[Arnz]

As I've said many times before, I'm of the belief that the Newstart HCC and Go Card should be integrated, to allow Centrelink to track attendances for the Newstart recipient if the user is using PT to get to/from interviews and/or the centrelink office.  That way, the HCC becomes a "adult" go card if the recipient isn't attending work/mandatory centrelink interviews.

All other HCC recipients get the standard concession go card as per current.

[somebody]

Many are struggling.  Encouraging them out and about is good sense.  Improves health outcomes and saves money in the bigger picture.

I think that's a pretty weak argument for seniors.  Maybe they should have saved more in their working years.

Yes, some people have genuine disadvantage, but I'm not sure why all seniors should get such a perk.

[somebody]

Under the 23 zones, we have, the only way I think a daily cap could work would be highest journey in the 24 hour period x 2 (plus a possible loading), not withstanding a flat cap for certain concession groups ..

This comment makes me even more confused about what you even want.  A $41.82 daily cap would be completely pointless.

I take this comment back - you didn't actually say what I had read it as.  Sorry.

[Stillwater]

Seniors should have saved more in their working years!  Yes, maybe they should have got better pay as they worked in the munitions factory in World War II, or sewed parachutes or made up the ration packs for the Vietnam boys, or received greater compensation for sucking in Agent Orange.

Not far removed from suggesting the Soylent Green solution -- save on the old age costs.

[kazzac]

Yes I agree with the idea of half price fares after 8 paid journeys in one week

[ozbob]

Yes I agree with the idea of half price fares after 8 paid journeys in one week

This allows for a transition from the free after nine with no direct impact, on those who do the Mon - Fri commute, a large majority.

If they are ever to sort it, they will need to be strategic.  In fact I would like to see this done immediately, but they won't of course, just continue to let it bleed ..

During the early phases of the go card, there was a 6 journey cap, then 50%.  It went to 10 journey cap, then 50%.  8 is the mid point ... lol

[ozbob]

Seniors should have saved more in their working years!  Yes, maybe they should have got better pay as they worked in the munitions factory in World War II, or sewed parachutes or made up the ration packs for the Vietnam boys, or received greater compensation for sucking in Agent Orange.

Not far removed from suggesting the Soylent Green solution -- save on the old age costs.

Governments all over are doing the right thing, whether individuals agree matters not.  The benefits of social mobility, improved well being and reduction in health care costs are well known, and this was instrumental in even getting the stingy Queensland government to move with the less than optimal two journey cap for Seniors/Pensioners.

============

Perth

Seniors SmartRider

WA Seniors are entitled to travel for free on all Transperth services between 9.00am and 3.30pm Monday to Friday, all day Saturday and Sunday, as well as public holidays.

http://www.transperth.wa.gov.au/TicketsandFares/SmartRider/BuyingSmartRider/SeniorsSmartRiders.aspx

============

Adelaide

Just show your Seniors Card and you'll travel Free on all Adelaide Metro public transport services:

9.01 am to 3 pm weekdays
All day on weekends and public holidays

http://www.adelaidemetro.com.au/ticketing/seniors-free-travel

============

Melbourne

Seniors daily cap of  $3.80 for unlimited travel in metropolitan Melbourne (Zones 1 and 2) on a weekday.

Free travel on Saturdays and Sundays in two consecutive zones in metropolitan Melbourne (zones 1 and 2) and on regional town bus services.

http://www.myki.com.au/About-myki/Seniors

============

Sydney

Pensioner Excursion

Eligible concession holders can purchase unlimited travel, all day for just $2.50 with our Pensioner Excursion Ticket.

http://www.131500.com.au/tickets/explore/pensioner-excursion

============

Hobart

Day Tripper: unlimited urban travel after 9.00am. $2.90

http://www.metrotas.com.au/tickets-and-fares

============

Brisbane

Seniors Card +go, senior go card or green pensioner concession go card holders who use go card for two paid journeys in one day travel free for the rest of the day.

http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/go-card/benefits

============

[ozbob]

Under the 23 zones, we have, the only way I think a daily cap could work would be highest journey in the 24 hour period x 2 (plus a possible loading), not withstanding a flat cap for certain concession groups ..

This comment makes me even more confused about what you even want.  A $41.82 daily cap would be completely pointless.

I take this comment back - you didn't actually say what I had read it as.  Sorry.

No worries, I don't think daily is the way forward in SEQ.  The wide cost range in the fare table makes it complicated, and providing the base fares are better and there are some other offsets, not really needed. 

[somebody]

I don't think daily is the way forward in SEQ.  The wide cost range in the fare table makes it complicated, and providing the base fares are better and there are some other offsets, not really needed.

I thought you were very keen for daily capping, or something like it.

[ozbob]

Daily capping is good in the sense it gets rid of the outright rorting with the  free (or 50%) after x journeys issue.

The question is can go card do it?  It would need to be a dynamic cap as discussed.

Don't think it can, so based on the known present capabilities what I favour is clear at that this point. One way to control the rorting is to limit the number of paid journeys that count towards a cap, eg. maximum of 3 per 24 hour period.

[BrizCommuter]

And how much extra bus service was put on brizcommuter?

No more than 6% in any year. Again, doesn't quite make the 15-20% fare rises value for money!

[#Metro]

There's that magic number again - 6%

[ozbob]

Interview radio 96.5FM 13 Jan 2013 click --> here!  MP3 1.4MB

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2013/01/get-smart-smart-card-daily-and-weekly.html
A look at smart card daily and weekly options on other public transport systems.