Article: Disgraceful public transport forces workers to leave Coast

[Jonno]

Sunshine Coast isn't an outer suburb of Brisbane. I believe I read somewhere that only around 5% of the population of the Sunshine Coast work in Brisbane (compared to over 50% in Moreton Bay Regional Council). I don't think you can expect the people of the Sunshine Coast to pay for a train line that 95% of the population aren't ever going to use. My brother lives on the Sunshine Coast (at Maroochydore) and I doubt he's even aware that there are train services to Brisbane. Money would be better spent improving the bus services which would benefit everyone.

But the trips are being made to easily support the service.  You brother will have surely driven to Brisbane many times.  We need to plan for high % active & public transport.

[Stillwater]

It is too simplistic to view the issue on the Sunshine Coast Line purely in terms of passenger transport, without considering its rail freight function.  Also, it is a fallacy to think of the journeys SCL patrons make as work-related and for purposes of travelling to and from Brisbane.

People travel the SCL for lots of reasons, not just to get to and from work.  A significant proportion travel the line to get about between Caboolture and Gympie, with no intention of heading further south.  In fact the Caboolture-Nambour train shuttles (forget buses) are well patronised, especially at weekends.

And people from Brisbane want to use train to travel to the Sunny Coast.  Mention was made on this thread about students travelling counter-peak to the University of the Sunshine Coast, and people use it to travel to places such as the Australia Zoo.

Here are sobering facts:

For every three people living on the Sunshine Coast now, there will be another two living there by 2031.

On the Sunshine Coast, 86 per cent of all trips are undertaken by car, only 3.6 per cent by public transport.

PT usage on the Coast needs to be ramped up, with greater coordination between buses and feeder services, so the rail spine can be utilised more effectively.  That issue is not addressed so long as there is a single track north of Beerburrum.  The line is crowded out, so what incentive is there for the government to attract more patrons to the limited train services?

Welcome to the region that wants to be 'Australia's most sustainable community'.

[Jonno]

It is too simplistic to view the issue on the Sunshine Coast Line purely in terms of passenger transport, without considering its rail freight function.  Also, it is a fallacy to think of the journeys SCL patrons make as work-related and for purposes of travelling to and from Brisbane.

People travel the SCL for lots of reasons, not just to get to and from work.  A significant proportion travel the line to get about between Caboolture and Gympie, with no intention of heading further south.  In fact the Caboolture-Nambour train shuttles (forget buses) are well patronised, especially at weekends.

And people from Brisbane want to use train to travel to the Sunny Coast.  Mention was made on this thread about students travelling counter-peak to the University of the Sunshine Coast, and people use it to travel to places such as the Australia Zoo.

Here are sobering facts:

For every three people living on the Sunshine Coast now, there will be another two living there by 2031.

On the Sunshine Coast, 86 per cent of all trips are undertaken by car, only 3.6 per cent by public transport.

PT usage on the Coast needs to be ramped up, with greater coordination between buses and feeder services, so the rail spine can be utilised more effectively.  That issue is not addressed so long as there is a single track north of Beerburrum.  The line is crowded out, so what incentive is there for the government to attract more patrons to the limited train services?

Welcome to the region that wants to be 'Australia's most sustainable community'.

+1

[SurfRail]

^ Realignment and duplication from Beerburrum to Nambour is the bare minimum, I agree.  You could probably get two tracks as far as Cooroy without too much trouble as the alignment is already fairly OK, although ideally it should be realigned as well.  A fair number of curves, just not as many and not as bad as south of Nambour.

That would let you run say every second Nambour train to Cooroy and provide better connections to Coolum and Noosa.

[Stillwater]

True, but realignment necessary between Nambour and Yandina, possibly tied into train stabling facilities at Yandina, NOT Nambour.

[Fares_Fair]

It is too simplistic to view the issue on the Sunshine Coast Line purely in terms of passenger transport, without considering its rail freight function.  Also, it is a fallacy to think of the journeys SCL patrons make as work-related and for purposes of travelling to and from Brisbane.

People travel the SCL for lots of reasons, not just to get to and from work.  A significant proportion travel the line to get about between Caboolture and Gympie, with no intention of heading further south.  In fact the Caboolture-Nambour train shuttles (forget buses) are well patronised, especially at weekends.

And people from Brisbane want to use train to travel to the Sunny Coast.  Mention was made on this thread about students travelling counter-peak to the University of the Sunshine Coast, and people use it to travel to places such as the Australia Zoo.

Here are sobering facts:

For every three people living on the Sunshine Coast now, there will be another two living there by 2031.

On the Sunshine Coast, 86 per cent of all trips are undertaken by car, only 3.6 per cent by public transport.

PT usage on the Coast needs to be ramped up, with greater coordination between buses and feeder services, so the rail spine can be utilised more effectively.  That issue is not addressed so long as there is a single track north of Beerburrum.  The line is crowded out, so what incentive is there for the government to attract more patrons to the limited train services?

Welcome to the region that wants to be 'Australia's most sustainable community'.

+1

+330,000

[Stillwater]

Today's Mx newspaper says in story about SEQ bus review that 'trips between the city and the Sunshine Coast will also be overhauled'.

What, do you suppose, is meant by these words?

[Arnz]

^ All of the bus networks that span from Brisbane to the Sunshine Coast.  It is possible to go from the Sunshine Coast to the City using only bus (thanks in part of Route 649), but it takes extra long to get there. 

[HappyTrainGuy]

Rail bus + 660? Caboolture to Redcliffe (+690 if you don't want to walk that much) + 315 Redcliffe to City. That in itself is a good 2 hours 30 minutes minimum.

[Fares_Fair]

Today's Mx newspaper says in story about SEQ bus review that 'trips between the city and the Sunshine Coast will also be overhauled'.

What, do you suppose, is meant by these words?

I have formally requested that a 605/615 bus service be provided to meet the 0708 ex-Landsborough train service.
Currently it is a 43 minute wait between the current bus services each side of it.

I have been informed that it will form part of the overall bus network review.

[Arnz]

There are also gaps during the weekdays, for both 605 and 615 that I've mentioned previously.

It's disappointing however they missed the Sunday morning gap for both 605/615.

[Fares_Fair]

There are also gaps during the weekdays, for both 605 and 615 that I've mentioned previously.

It's disappointing however they missed the Sunday morning gap for both 605/615.

G'day Arnz,

Can you direct me to your post re: the bus gaps please?
Had a bit of a look.

[Arnz]

Checked the archives and found it was in a PM to you, but I'll paste the important parts that should be known by all.

Weekday:
No 605 connection to the 9:41am ex-Landsborough to Caboolture shuttle.
No 605 connection from the 9:55am Landsborough arrival (ex-Roma Street)

(3 hour gap - 605 departures from Kawana at 7:10am and 10:00am).

No 615 connection to the 12:41pm ex-Landsborough to Roma Street train
No 615 connection from the 12:55pm Landsborough ariival (ex-Roma Street)

(3 hour gap - 615 departures from Sunshine Plaza at 10:15am and 1:15pm).

Sunday:
605/615 connections requested/required to meet the 9:11am ex-Landsborough to Roma Street train, and to meet the 9:25am arrival (ex-Roma Street).  605/615 Arrival times would be 9am and departures would be at 9:30am. 

As of current, there are no buses meeting either service, a bus in this gap would allow FULL-DAY VISITS in BOTH directions, and IMO would be reasonably patronized with passengers in BOTH directions, with 5pm or later departures back home (to Brisbane or to the coast).

[Stillwater]

Okay, Mr Minnekin's media statement says there will be 'additional services connecting to Sunshine Coast train stations'

Interesting to note that Route 600 carries 25 per cent of Sunshine Coast bus trips.

[Fares_Fair]

Okay, Mr Minnekin's media statement says there will be 'additional services connecting to Sunshine Coast train stations'

Interesting to note that Route 600 carries 25 per cent of Sunshine Coast bus trips.

Wow, that sounds promising ... is the media statement posted here?

[ozbob]

Media statement --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9045.msg114186#msg114186

[Fares_Fair]

Checked the archives and found it was in a PM to you, but I'll paste the important parts that should be known by all.

Weekday:
No 605 connection to the 9:41am ex-Landsborough to Caboolture shuttle.
No 605 connection from the 9:55am Landsborough arrival (ex-Roma Street)

(3 hour gap - 605 departures from Kawana at 7:10am and 10:00am).

No 615 connection to the 12:41pm ex-Landsborough to Roma Street train
No 615 connection from the 12:55pm Landsborough ariival (ex-Roma Street)

(3 hour gap - 615 departures from Sunshine Plaza at 10:15am and 1:15pm).

Sunday:
605/615 connections requested/required to meet the 9:11am ex-Landsborough to Roma Street train, and to meet the 9:25am arrival (ex-Roma Street).  605/615 Arrival times would be 9am and departures would be at 9:30am. 

As of current, there are no buses meeting either service, a bus in this gap would allow FULL-DAY VISITS in BOTH directions, and IMO would be reasonably patronized with passengers in BOTH directions, with 5pm or later departures back home (to Brisbane or to the coast).

my apology Arnz, last place I'd look ... 
Thank you.

[Stillwater]

Stockland, the developers of the Caloundra South residential estate to house 50,000 people, claims that 39,000 jobs will be created in and around the development.  And pigs might fly.

As indicated in this story, people living there will travel to Brisbane to seek work, further adding to the woes of the SCL and the Bruce Highway.

http://www.gympietimes.com.au/news/lobby-group-questions-developers-job-claims/1703327/

[#Metro]

They won't travel if long distance fares are raised. It cost a lot to run trains 100 km out of the cbd.

does this development have a designated businesses district? Didn't think so.

[Jonas Jade]

does this development have a designated businesses district? Didn't think so.

Actually it does, it is planned to have an "enterprise" and activity centre. How well that actually goes could be another story though.

http://www.sunshinecoast.qld.gov.au/addfiles/documents/calsouth/calsthnov10/cal_sth_structure_plan_final.pdf

Page 13-7

Also:
http://stocklandcaloundrasouth.com.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Amended-Cal-South-Illustrative-Master-Plan.jpg

[#Metro]

Given the plan, my impression is that it doesn't look bad at all and the town centre is smack bang on the proposed future train station. They could put a road in where the train line is supposed to go and run buses along it until the train line comes along, over the top of the road.

The roads aren't impermeable either.

So long as TL fares for long distance travel are raised relative to short distance fares, that should be incentive for people in that area not to go to Brisbane. I know this isn't going to make me popular saying this, but you can't have it both ways (both cheaper shorter and longer trips).

[Fares_Fair]

Given the plan, my impression is that it doesn't look bad at all and the town centre is smack bang on the proposed future train station. They could put a road in where the train line is supposed to go and run buses along it until the train line comes along, over the top of the road.

The roads aren't impermeable either.

So long as TL fares for long distance travel are raised relative to short distance fares, that should be incentive for people in that area not to go to Brisbane. I know this isn't going to make me popular saying this, but you can't have it both ways (both cheaper shorter and longer trips).

??  .. incentive for people not to go to Brisbane!
If there are not enough jobs on the coast, then there are not enough jobs.
Having or not having a train service won't change that scenario.

... and we will keep trains for short interurban trips alone, and make them long haulers drive. 

[#Metro]

Yes, but if the jobs are in brisbane, would it not be more logical to live in brisbane or even ipswich or logan? I'm all about owning choices, if people want to live that far, then its going to cost. Same deal with people who live half way up mt tambourine or on islands in moreton bay...

[Stillwater]

I think the issue is that the GOVERNMENT IS ACTIVELY PLANNING TO PUT AN EXTRA 200,000 PEOPLE INTO THE SUNSHINE COAST.  Yes, plans can be made for all of those people to live at Logan or Chermside, but that is NOT the plan.  If governments plan for these satellite developments, it must also plan and provide, commensurate with the residential development and, preferably, ahead of it, effective and efficient public transport.  That applies not only to the Sunshine Coast, but also in major regional areas, such as Townsville and Cairns.

As for fares, Bendigo is same distance from Melbourne as Cooran (Zone 23) is from Brisbane.  The 2013 adult peak fare for Zone 23 is $20.91 one-way.  Bendigo-Southern Cross adult peak fare is $19, less off-peak and with periodic tickets.

[#Metro]

The government doesn't put anyone anywhere. Thats the growth projection for that region. Of course train services should be improved, but that said there are two ways to contain long distance commuting from sprawl. Either don't build there or contain it using using relatively higher fares than areas closer to the cbd.

As for melbourne, I think it only demonstrates that the govt is promoting sprawl, and whether that be by fast roads or fast and cheap trains is beside the point.

[Old Northern Road]

If there aren't enough jobs on the Sunshine Coast then people aren't going to move to Caloundra South. The government isn't going to force people to move there. Even if CAMCOS is built the trip to Brisbane is still going to be too long for most people.

Page 12 of this document shows a high frequency bus route servicing Caloundra South
http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/Projects/C/CoastConnect%20Caloundra%20to%20Maroochydore%20Quality%20Bus%20Corridor/vol1/Pdfcdimpfinalvol1chapter10.pdf.

[Old Northern Road]

Most of the Moreton Bay region already has reasonable access to rail via the Caboolture line, so the comparison is wonky.  MBRL is really only for the Anzac Ave and Redcliffe catchment which is off the grid.

The Sunshine Coast line is for an entire region, and ultimately for the entire network given the passing loops issue restricting train lengths.

Are you referring to the CAMCOS line or the existing line? The existing line doesn't serve the entire region at all. It's only really useful for people travelling to Brisbane. There will be over 150,000 people living in the catchment area of the Kippa-Ring line once the Mango Hill/ North Lakes area is fully developed. The Kippa-Ring line is expected to get around 10 times the patronage as the Sunshine Coast line currently gets.

[Old Northern Road]

It is too simplistic to view the issue on the Sunshine Coast Line purely in terms of passenger transport, without considering its rail freight function.  Also, it is a fallacy to think of the journeys SCL patrons make as work-related and for purposes of travelling to and from Brisbane.

People travel the SCL for lots of reasons, not just to get to and from work.  A significant proportion travel the line to get about between Caboolture and Gympie, with no intention of heading further south.  In fact the Caboolture-Nambour train shuttles (forget buses) are well patronised, especially at weekends.

And people from Brisbane want to use train to travel to the Sunny Coast.  Mention was made on this thread about students travelling counter-peak to the University of the Sunshine Coast, and people use it to travel to places such as the Australia Zoo.

Here are sobering facts:

For every three people living on the Sunshine Coast now, there will be another two living there by 2031.

On the Sunshine Coast, 86 per cent of all trips are undertaken by car, only 3.6 per cent by public transport.

PT usage on the Coast needs to be ramped up, with greater coordination between buses and feeder services, so the rail spine can be utilised more effectively.  That issue is not addressed so long as there is a single track north of Beerburrum.  The line is crowded out, so what incentive is there for the government to attract more patrons to the limited train services?

Welcome to the region that wants to be 'Australia's most sustainable community'.

I'm sorry but travel between stations on the Sunshine Coast line would be almost non-existent. The only station with any walk up patronage is Nambour. I guess you might get some kids travelling down to Caboolture for school. Upgrading the line would benefit freight but that has nothing to do with people living on the Sunshine Coast as all the freight is heading further north to Townsville, Mackay etc. Improving the services on the Sunshine Coast line would do very little to increase the overall PT usage on the Sunshine Coast as the line is useless for 99% of all trips. Also this article seems to be only referring to peak hour and the Sunshine Coast line already gets pretty decent services during peak.

[Mr X]

Have you, by any chance, ever actually taken the line?

I took it just yesterday (shuttle to Caboolture from Landsborough then all stops to Central) and there were quite a few going between stations, and not to Caboolture. Was surprising to see.

[ozbob]

... I'm sorry but travel between stations on the Sunshine Coast line would be almost non-existent ..

Wrong.  A very ill informed opinion. I have done many trips on the SCL and there is a considerable pax movement between stations.

The upgrade of the SCL is essential.

[Arnz]

Interestingly enough, Beerwah is just below Nambour on the most recent QR Peak Passenger Load Report (Landsborough is far away the most patronised station on the line, carrying at least 40% of the peak traffic).

Beerwah and Glasshouse gets quite a bit of walk-up traffic, the towns may not as big as Nambour, but I do think Steve Irwin had helped the areas over the years with the trickle of people moving to those areas. 

Also, as I've reported many times in the past, there is quite a amount of counter-peak traffic (obviously not as big as the peak direction traffic) but the demand is there, including those going to the University (via changing to the 615 bus at Landsborough), and the schools along the line (Beerwah State High, Landsborough, Maleny (via Bus at Landsborough), etc).

[ozbob]

The Up Sunday Gympie Lander is usually 'find a piece of floor to sit on' after Nambour ...

[Jonno]

A quick look at the passenger loading survey
Seems to show mostly high single digits at most stations going counter peak, Lands getting 11. Overall there is barely 1000 peak flow commuters, with maybe 50 counter peak.

In comparison Doomben line gets about half the numbers in peak flow but much less with its also hopeless frequency and being much closer to town, but with very limited counter flow traffic, most of which (4) go to Hendra. However from QR taxpayer point of view the cost of servicing these people would be a fraction of NCL stations as the line is only 7km long and there is less than half the stations (and people want Doomben closed?). I've caught the Sunday Gympie Lander and it seemed semi popular for local users.

http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/railservices/city/documents/queensland-rail_passenger-load-survey-2012-q1.pdf

A quick look at the passenger loading survey
Seems to show mostly high single digits at most stations going counter peak, Lands getting 11. Overall there is barely 1000 peak flow commuters, with maybe 50 counter peak.

In comparison Doomben line gets about half the numbers in peak flow but much less with its also hopeless frequency and being much closer to town, but with very limited counter flow traffic, most of which (4) go to Hendra. However from QR taxpayer point of view the cost of servicing these people would be a fraction of NCL stations as the line is only 7km long and there is less than half the stations (and people want Doomben closed?). I've caught the Sunday Gympie Lander and it seemed semi popular for local users.

http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/railservices/city/documents/queensland-rail_passenger-load-survey-2012-q1.pdf

A quick look at the passenger loading survey
Seems to show mostly high single digits at most stations going counter peak, Lands getting 11. Overall there is barely 1000 peak flow commuters, with maybe 50 counter peak.

In comparison Doomben line gets about half the numbers in peak flow but much less with its also hopeless frequency and being much closer to town, but with very limited counter flow traffic, most of which (4) go to Hendra. However from QR taxpayer point of view the cost of servicing these people would be a fraction of NCL stations as the line is only 7km long and there is less than half the stations (and people want Doomben closed?). I've caught the Sunday Gympie Lander and it seemed semi popular for local users.

http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/railservices/city/documents/queensland-rail_passenger-load-survey-2012-q1.pdf

Provide a poor service, over-invest in alternative and you will always have the stats to show your service is not being used. 

[Stillwater]

  Build it (dual tracks to Nambour) and they will come

[somebody]

Build it (dual tracks to Nambour) and they will come

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that full duplication to Nambour will not be achieved this decade.

[Mr X]

Or the next.

[mufreight]

There will be enough pressure on the LNP then they will most likely promise to do something in their next term, if there is sufficent pressure it is posible that they may actually make a start on some duplication and realignment before then if they dont their chances of holding their Sunshine Coast seats will diminish greatly if there are some credible independents stand up there, a risk that the LNP faceless men might not like to take.

[Stillwater]

Sunny Coast has a taste for conservative independents.  It's time to start a campaign on the Coast among voters. 'Make Your Vote Count - Make the Sunshine Coast Marginal'.  If the people of the SC show that they won't be taken for granted, the local LNP members will sit up and take notice.

Pollies should not assume that the entire cost of duplication is a state burden alone.  The SCL is included in the network of roads and railways that the federal government is prepared to fund.  Some smart legwork could see a business case funding model worked up based on 50:50 funding state/feds.  We just need to convince Mr Newman and Co that this is the first step.

Slim margins for SC seats will grab attention.

[Fares_Fair]

I will certainly be looking for real action on the North Coast Line, announced before the next election.

Everyone on the Sunshine Coast knows the levels of service that we endure, due to the most congested single line track in the nation, shared by city trains, unnecessarily short freight trains (650m) and long distance tilt/travel trains to boot.

Longer train trips with every timetable revision,
26 rail buses acting as trains that take up to 1 & 1/2 hours to go a mere 54km,
dance of the trains when meeting oncoming service aliong single track,
infrequent services that positively discourage the use of public transport,
why? 'cause it's quicker to drive and possibly cheaper now, in the eyes of many commuters (who tend to compare to petrol costs alone).

Something HAS to give, and it needs to be the Sunshine Coast MP's producing rail infrastructure substance.

They need to be seen to do something for this previously neglected region.
I mean, the former Government took away the rail duplication project right in the middle of its construction schedule in April 2009.

DOING nothing is NO longer an option.
Expect this issue to raise to a crescendo before the next election.

[ozbob]

 ^ +1