Congestion tolling etc.

[achiruel]

We need this in Brisbane throughout the week for vehicles travelling down Ann, Edward and Alice Streets. Basically having a tolled zone from Ann street to Alice, bordering William and Queen Streets.

Weekends are still ok at this stage.

Proposed times could be 7am-7pm.

The charge could be around 2 bucks for cars and 5 bucks for heavy vehicles per one-way trip.

The money raise could be put towards an underground metro system, newer buses,  new active transport links, or an underground mass transit tunnel from South to North or a Tram/LRT loop CBD and Valley.

Why should ride share and taxis be exempt? They're creating traffic congestion too, and lots of it.

The issue I see is what about deliveries for local businesses? It is going to make their cost of doing business even higher, when many CBD businesses are already struggling.

[verbatim9]

NBC - https://www.nbcnewyork.com/traffic/transit-traffic/mta-announces-congestion-pricing-public-hearing-dates-process-to-provide-comments/4982668/

Wow, The MTA isreally going for it when it comes to the charges. I guess it's economy of scale.

Here in Brisbane TMR and BCC wouldn't need to charge as much, as a smaller amount would act as deterrent, as well as revenue raising for improved public transport projects/infrastructure across the inner city.

[Gazza]

I think congestion tolling at the moment would be political suicide.

I think the only way to get away with it is when you have a pre existing PT system that is much more extensive, and a significant cohort of the population who don't drive because the system is good enough to permit that. So this is why places like London or Singapore or Oslo can have it.

But in the case of Brisbane, it seems like it would only raise a modest amount of revenue, so the PT improvements would be pretty modest in return.

It would be quite lame if they spent the political capital of a congestion charge and then all we got was a couple more free loop buses or something.
(You're not going to fund a a major project lets be clear)

[verbatim9]

Thats not exactly true for New York. While there is a subway there it doesn't cover the outer areas. People are also given the option to use the tunnel rather than going through the city to escape the higher charges.

Furthermore, it's not people driving into the city here that causes the congestion, it's people using the city as an arterial road to drive from north to south.

2 bucks or 4 bucks a day return to raise revenue and also to deter people of using the city as an arterial road is a minimal ask. Plus the funds raised can go towards improved transport infrastructure in the inner city, West End, Fortitude Valley and Newstead. This can be a surface/underground tram or a fully underground metro or new electric articulated buses with overhead charging capabilities for the blue glider. Plus the chance to fast track new active transport corridors.

People here still have three options the Clem 7, The Story Bridge and the inner city by pass. Although I reckon the Captain Cook Bridge should have a 1 dollar toll each way to pay for a tunnel from Toowong to Buranda

So overall  it's a moderate proposal, considering ride share and taxis would be free alongside PT and eMobility going in and out of the city.

Additionally, the best selling point is that the funds raised from a congestion toll would go towards a world class  PT system in the inner city. This alongside  a tunnel from Toowong to Buranda would help divert a lot of drivers and cut overall congestion. A win for motorists,  PT and ride share users alike. Not to forget the cyclists and people who walk to and from the city.

**The proposal is only for Weekdays from 7 am to 7pm. All other times wouldn't require the congestion toll. Plus for people that drive and park in the city from 7 am - 7pm are likely able to pay the 4 dollar a day charge. Otherwise they can park at a suburb nearby and catch the bus or train into the city.

[Gazza]

What North South journeys require using the city? Can't you use clem 7 or the gateway?

[verbatim9]

What North South journeys require using the city? Can't you use clem 7 or the gateway?

Exactly, but they still drive through the city, especially when the inner city bypass is congested or the Story bridge.

[#Metro]

Some form of road user charge will be inevitable IMO as cars become electric and revenue from fuel excise dries up.

Will be some form of per-km charge and possibly on/off peak too I speculate.

Unlikely to be a cordon toll, more likely to be a general charge IMO.

Will take a major funding  crisis/crunch to make it happen IMO.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> London makes CBD drivers pay up. Should Brisbane introduce a congestion tax? $

Traffic congestion in Brisbane is the worst.

Anyone who regularly crawls across the Captain Cook or Story Bridge, battles the Riverside Expressway and ICB during peak hour or frequents roads such as Coronation Drive and Brunswick Street knows this.

This year, a report found Brisbane was the most traffic-congested city in Australia (and 12th in the world), with drivers losing an average of 74 hours to traffic delays each year, compared with 62 hours in Melbourne and 53 hours in Sydney.

This is despite the billions spent on underground tunnels and road upgrades, decisions that have worsened congestion in some instances. Turns out if you keep prioritising driving, more people continue to do it. ...

[hU0N]

When you spend a lot of money on food, you end up with a lot of food.

When you spend a lot of money on clothes, you end up with a lot of clothes.

When you spend a lot of money on traffic, you end up with a lot of traffic.

[Gazza]

I think London could only achieve congestion tolling because their PT network is so comprehensive in the congestion charge zone, and good for people coming from outside the zone too.

Brisbane does not have this, so it would be very stick and little carrot.

[RowBro]

I think London could only achieve congestion tolling because their PT network is so comprehensive in the congestion charge zone, and good for people coming from outside the zone too.

Brisbane does not have this, so it would be very stick and little carrot.

The PT is perfectly adequate in the inner city. Worst case, people can park at a Park and Ride closer to the city.

[hU0N]

I think London could only achieve congestion tolling because their PT network is so comprehensive in the congestion charge zone, and good for people coming from outside the zone too.

Brisbane does not have this, so it would be very stick and little carrot.

2021 census data for journey to work by place of work as 24% by private car (as driver or passenger) for the Brisbane Inner SA3 (roughly equivalent to the city and city frame as defined by BCC).

Three out of four people travelling into the central area choose to arrive on public or active transport. That's more than enough transport alternatives to make congestion charging viable.

Charging people to drive into the CBD doesn't actually affect most of the people who travel to the CBD.  Opposition comes from people who have little reason to visit the CBD, are auto-reliant, and who have no go card and very little familiarity with the PT network.  People like this rarely go to the CBD, but they like the idea that they could.  In their heads, if they went to the CBD (which they don't) they would drive.  And they will reflexively oppose any attempt to complicate their right to drive to the CBD (even though they almost never actually go there).

Unfortunately, for the people who oppose congestion charging, whether or not there are alternative ways of accessing the CBD is irrelevant (except as a talking point they might use to argue against it).

[Gazza]

The PT is perfectly adequate in the inner city. Worst case, people can park at a Park and Ride closer to the city.

No, its not.

Compare the network of the inner city versus Copenhagen at the same zoom level.

We literally know that there are parts of Brisbanes middle ring that still dont have HF buses. You can be fairly close to the city somwhere like Coorparoo and have 30 min frequency on weekends. it just doesn't compare. Our network just isn't geared towards convenient short hops.

I take the view that congestion tolling would not be politically palatable unless your trains were like every 3-5 mins, and everyone was within 400m of a bus running every 10 mins or better, plus much more cycling infrastructure.

[hU0N]

The PT is perfectly adequate in the inner city. Worst case, people can park at a Park and Ride closer to the city.

No, its not.

Compare the network of the inner city versus Copenhagen at the same zoom level.

We literally know that there are parts of Brisbanes middle ring that still dont have HF buses. You can be fairly close to the city somwhere like Coorparoo and have 30 min frequency on weekends. it just doesn't compare. Our network just isn't geared towards convenient short hops.

I take the view that congestion tolling would not be politically palatable unless your trains were like every 3-5 mins, and everyone was within 400m of a bus running every 10 mins or better, plus much more cycling infrastructure.

I disagree.  If you overlay the bus network (proposed network because that's easy to get hold of), the coverage is dense.



Obviously, there are many improvements to be made, but even as it stands, there is very little of this map that you absolutely need to drive to because PT is too unavailable.  And this map shows a much larger swathe of the city than a congestion toll would ever be applied to.  To reiterate, only 24% of commutes into the CBD or city frame are currently by private vehicle.  The other 76% are by other modes.

Sure the network has it's issues.  But it is already good enough at moving people into the CBD to justify a congestion toll (if it ever became politically possible).

[achiruel]

To reiterate, only 24% of commutes into the CBD or city frame are currently by private vehicle.  The other 76% are by other modes.

Sure the network has it's issues.  But it is already good enough at moving people into the CBD to justify a congestion toll (if it ever became politically possible).

What's that percentage in the early morning (before 7 am?) In the evening (after 7 pm)? Saturdays? Sundays? I guarantee that at all these times it's way below 76% PT. The early morning bus network is Brisbane is utter crap. The evening one isn't much better. Saturdays are somewhat okay, and Sundays are largely back to being utter crap again.

There's times of the day/week when it's simply impractical and/or impossible to use PT into/around the CBD.

[Jonno]

I think London could only achieve congestion tolling because their PT network is so comprehensive in the congestion charge zone, and good for people coming from outside the zone too.

Brisbane does not have this, so it would be very stick and little carrot.

The PT is perfectly adequate in the inner city. Worst case, people can park at a Park and Ride closer to the city.

It's certainly not very legible or easy to jump on and off across the city

[verbatim9]

The problem is that drivers use the city as a through arterial not as a destination. If all those cars were using the city as a destination, there would be more carparks and it would be a bustling CBD. This makes it even more important to charge through drivers a congestion toll. 1.00 in each direction would be good to help raise funds for a world class underground metro and surface LRT, similar to Sydney.

[GonzoFonzie]

Cars users behaviours such as using the CBD as a thoroughfare occurs because of its perceived ease of access is analogous to electricity flowing through the path of least resistance.

The toll might be a social engineering option, however if you were to make it so the CBD was less convenient then they would bypass it for other roads outside the CBD, making the path of least resistance into one with with more, drivers would be forced to make different decisions. 

Sydney improved their CBD by only introducing an LRT along one the main roads, which reduced both cars and buses in the CBD overall. Why not start with the LRT solution for Brisbane, then as traffic is reduced, slowly start turning roads in to more pedestrian malls. 

Extending the Queen Street Mall to Wharf Street would be a good start.

[#Metro]

The problem is that drivers use the city as a through arterial not as a destination. If all those cars were using the city as a destination, there would be more carparks and it would be a bustling CBD. This makes it even more important to charge through drivers a congestion toll. 1.00 in each direction would be good to help raise funds for a world class underground metro and surface LRT, similar to Sydney.

Isn't there a bypass of the CBD on all sides? ICB, Story Bridge, REX, Clem 7..

[verbatim9]

This is the problem they aren't using it, prefering  to go down Ann and Edward Streets, as well as Turbot Street.

[Gazza]

I disagree.  If you overlay the bus network (proposed network because that's easy to get hold of), the coverage is dense.

Coverage isnt enough, the service levels and span of hours have to be much higher.

[RowBro]

Coverage isnt enough, the service levels and span of hours have to be much higher.

Use the generated revenue to fund an increase in service frequency and span of hours.

[andrewr]

I worked with someone who struggled catching a bus from Newstead to the Cultural Centre (interchange) because of full buses passing her stop and congestion through Fortitude Valley. Traffic massively impacts PT on that side of the city and it's easy to see why: drivers avoiding tolls underneath. Not only that but improvements to the aboveground road network, like Kingsford Smith Drive and the ICB upgrade, have induced more traffic.

Instead of charging in the city, Brisbane effectively charges to bypass the city, which doesn't really make any sense. A congestion charge, perhaps coupled with more bus lanes and capacity would really improve PT in a number of suburbs IMO.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Story bridge isn't really bypassing the city. It still funnels you into it and at times forces you to use other roads such as turbot street. For example ICB is slower instead of rat running through turbot and Gregory terrace and it doesn't help that all the lights are synced. Same with at night you can go non stop M1 all the way to Hamilton via Turbot/KSD (you can do it during the day but you might only get sections).

And if you introduce congestion tolling you can also force alternative routes to be congested such as forcing everything via icb which then puts strains on other parts of the road network which and influence the public transport side. We all saw how introducing a stop for all mains services at Albion and woolwoowin just destroyed the usability for long haul passengers as everyone that drove and parked there boarded the two carriages due to the station entrances - meanwhile airport was empty running express and short hauls ie Doomben and shorncliffe due to the substantially longer exit routes.