SEQ Bus Network Review

[somebody]

  How can you say that without even seeing the whole network as one along with the actual frequencies/timetabling especially considering the review isn't even finished yet.

Easily.  The target frequencies, overall span and removed services have been released.  Perhaps there are increased services not properly explained in some areas and others that the consultation will see increased, although I doubt we'll see that being common.

[#Metro]

Ips road is a main arterial, so some kind of frequent service is justified, may not be 100 necessarily.

[ozbob]

Worthwhile I think to note the key recommendations of the review:

The key recommendations of the review focus on providing more frequent services and are as follows.

1. Grow patronage by
- Expanding the frequent network, both by introducing the concept on the Gold Coast and expanding it closer to 50,000 more people in Brisbane. Already 44% of Brisbane Transport passengers use the 19 routes in the BUZ and CityGlider network (prior to Maroon City Glider).
- Simplifying the network, by reducing the number of routes and consolidating CBD departures.

2. Help contain the costs of operating the network by
- Better targeting the frequent network. Extended operating hours are warranted in some corridors but must be targeted to ensure value for money. Typically 84% of boardings on the high frequency services occur between 7am and 7pm, but the same level of service is committed from 6am to 11.30pm in Brisbane. The new services focus on 7am to 7pm, 7 days per week, with service frequency maintained in late evenings for specific locations.
- Better integrating the bus network with other modes (rail, ferry and future light rail services). Expanded high frequency networks have added many interchange opportunities.

3. Manage infrastructure constraints by
- Improving capacity utilisation on corridors entering the CBD. Many buses are not full when they enter the CBD. By connecting local services to the high frequency network at local shopping centres we can alleviate infrastructure constraints and improve reliability.

I think the proposed changes in the broad sense will achieve what has set out to do.  Some tweaking will be necessary and is to be expected.

Re Ipswich Road.  No one gets one or off between Oxley and Moorooka.  The proposed changes in routes cover where it matters well ...

There has been extensive consultation with operators, they have the load data, probably the most accurate ever in terms of the go data, and there has been two stages of public consultation.  There has also been external consultants.  I think they have the basics of the new network sorted.

[somebody]

Re: Ipswich Rd, route 23 will operate every 15 minutes until 7pm then unspecified until approximately 9pm when it appears to stop operating.  Currently, the 125 operates every hour until 11:45pm ex-Adelaide St stop 39, and the 124/125 combination operate every half hour until 11:45pm.  Not to mention the 110 every hour and 100 every 15 minutes.

The proposed plans are cuts, just how savage is the only real question.

[techblitz]

Can't believe how easily they decided to just rip the only service out of sherwood rd rocklea and just tell everyone.....too bad so sad....walk to the railway station stating only 800m.
Bollocks.....golf links rd residents face a near 1.2km walk to rocklea rail.
Rocklea markets will now have to fund their own bus or have no public transport to the markets unless they want customers carting thier boxes of fruit all the way to the railway station on foot. The 598/599 always enjoy good loads on Saturdays due to the markets.

[ozbob]

The 104 is an issue as well, I think there is an opportunity to combine the 598/599 Sherwood road leg with a putative 104 to provide a secondary service along that corridor and connect Corinda to Yeerongpilly.

[Gazza]

Can't believe how easily they decided to just rip the only service out of sherwood rd rocklea and just tell everyone.....too bad so sad....walk to the railway station stating only 800m.

My suggestion was to still service sherwood road with a local route between the Ipswich and Beenleigh lines only, by using otherwhise dead running buses to and from Sherwood bus depot.

[#Metro]

I agree with simon on late night services, as I do a lot of overtime and it can be haphazard. I value frequent late night service a lot and with all the taxi bills, would be cheaper to pay car rego.

A workable compromise is to run secondary routes to say 9 pm then no service, and transfer the late night services to the GFN to maintain frequency well into the night. Why let obscure routes such as 110, 125 et al run hourly at night, but cut the core services? Should be the other way around with respect to late night service.

[ozbob]

Late night services will still be running, just might not be at the same frequency in all cases.  It will be route and load dependent.  Makes sense, buses of air running every 2 or 3 minutes on the busway late Sunday evening is just one of the reasons things do need to be rationalised a little ..

[somebody]

Late night services will still be running, just might not be at the same frequency in all cases.  It will be route and load dependent.  Makes sense, buses of air running every 2 or 3 minutes on the busway late Sunday evening is just one of the reasons things do need to be rationalised a little ..

Only on the routes listed as having a span until 11pm though - that's the only satisfactory reading of the report.

[hU0N]

A couple of things:

Is there sufficient layover space at UQ for all the buses that will now be terminating there?

If there isn't, then it will be a high priority to build it.  Based on existing patronage, the Indooroopilly to UQ leg is more important to these routes than the Indooroopilly to Moggill / Kenmore / Fig Tree Pocket / Brookfield legs.  (For example, compare patronage on the 432 which calls at UQ, and the nearly identical 433 which bypasses UQ).

[#Metro]

I would like to see the buz late night ' haircut' apply to non buz routes so that the buz standard could remain.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Speaking of waste along the Gympie road corridor. Right now. 2.33. the 333 is at standing load at the Gympie road stop. The 330 behind it.... Empty and waiting for the timetable to catch up.

[ozbob]

Could be interesting, BCC has been 'debating' the TransLink Bus review in Council this afternoon ... 

[somebody]

Speaking of waste along the Gympie road corridor. Right now. 2.33. the 333 is at standing load at the Gympie road stop. The 330 behind it.... Empty and waiting for the timetable to catch up.

That's because the 330 doesn't enter the bus interchange I/B and the 333 does.  That means people don't know about the 330 I/B and all pile onto the 333.  The BUZ 340 + additional stops did actually make some sense in this regard because at least it allows a service that people can board at stops between Gympie/Hamilton Rds and RB&WH.

Could be interesting, BCC has been 'debating' the TransLink Bus review in Council this afternoon ... 

Ooh aah.  Can't imagine that they'll be positive about it.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I would like to see the buz late night ' haircut' apply to non buz routes so that the buz standard could remain.

I agree in that the frequency for feeders get rolled back into the night but if you want to cut them so you could run the air services at night then that just screws up the network to the standard of where it is now. If you can't wait 30 minutes for a bus at night then harden the f**k up! It's late at night where the majority of users want and do use the service.

[somebody]

If you can't wait 30 minutes for a bus at night then harden the f**k up! It's late at night where the majority of users want and do use the service.

Err, no.  Most people will just use a car, which goes completely against the goal of promoting PT.  And I think you meant something else with your last sentence.

[Gazza]

A workable compromise is to run secondary routes to say 9 pm then no service, and transfer the late night services to the GFN to maintain frequency well into the night. Why let obscure routes such as 110, 125 et al run hourly at night, but cut the core services? Should be the other way around with respect to late night service.

An example where this could occur would be the 210 (Which is planned to go to Carindale instead). The 212 is getting axed, so that means it could be 3bph for the whole length if you converted 212s to 210s.

And since its 3bph, you could probably push it to 4bph.

However, the 210 is no more than 800m from the 222 for most of the time. Late at night you could just finish the route, and just make late night pax walk further from the 222 (Which I think is an OK compromise)

[ozbob]

Feedback for stage three has been extended to 4 weeks (another two weeks).

[HappyTrainGuy]

Speaking of waste along the Gympie road corridor. Right now. 2.33. the 333 is at standing load at the Gympie road stop. The 330 behind it.... Empty and waiting for the timetable to catch up.

That's because the 330 doesn't enter the bus interchange I/B and the 333 does.  That means people don't know about the 330 I/B and all pile onto the 333.  The BUZ 340 + additional stops did actually make some sense in this regard because at least it allows a service that people can board at stops between Gympie/Hamilton Rds and RB&WH.

Didn't stop the 6 or so people that got on the 333.

Err, no.  Most people will just use a car, which goes completely against the goal of promoting PT.

I take it you haven't ventured onto the northside. Currently home of the hourly and two hourly bus routes! Strathpine-Petrie... currently home of the hourly peak hour routes. Having put up with this with some routes stopping before sunset for god knows how long and only to see people whinging over a 15 min frequency reduced to 30 minute frequency at night is just beyond a joke.

[ozbob]

http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2013/3/12/bus-feedback-extended

Minister for Transport and Main Roads
The Honourable Scott Emerson

Bus feedback extended

Public feedback on proposed changes to south east Queensland's bus network will be extended for an additional two weeks to ensure passengers are able to comment on their routes.

Transport and Main Roads Minister Scott Emerson said the additional consultation time would ensure the improvements to the network are fully understood as part of the Government's plan to make the network more affordable for passengers and more reliable.

"We've already had 40,000 website visits since the report was made public last Thursday and 1700 comments were received in the first 24 hours," Mr Emerson said.

"This is a very important phase in our plan to build a better bus network, deliver better fares and given the level of feedback I'm prepared to take additional time to ensure everyone has the chance to have a say."

The review of south east Queensland's bus services was ordered by Mr Emerson last year after figures showed patronage dropping on 13 of 16 south east Queensland operators as well as rising costs, which were being paid for by Labor's on-going 15 per cent fare hikes.

The fare hikes are particularly hurting seniors, pensioners and students leading to half of all buses operating with less than seven passengers.

The Bus Network Review recommended increasing the number of high-frequency routes in Brisbane from 19 to 26, bringing Brisbane's network into line with leading world cities.

"It will also see more services operating across south east Queensland than in the final months under Labor," he said.

"During the first two rounds of consultation we received more than 6,000 pieces of feedback and overwhelmingly passengers told us they wanted more frequent services and better fares.

"Under the distinctive looking GoNetwork we'll be delivering high-frequency bus services to more than 800,000 people in Brisbane and also to the Gold Coast for the first time."

Public submissions can be made online at www.translink.com.au or by phoning 13 12 30 until April 7. The results of the review and consultation will be implemented from mid-2013.

[ENDS] 12 March 2013                                           

[somebody]

Err, no.  Most people will just use a car, which goes completely against the goal of promoting PT.

I take it you haven't ventured onto the northside. Currently home of the hourly and two hourly bus routes! Strathpine-Petrie... currently home of the hourly peak hour routes. Having put up with this with some routes stopping before sunset for god knows how long and only to see people whinging over a 15 min frequency reduced to 30 minute frequency at night is just beyond a joke.

I have, but it's not a reason why the gains already made should be undone.

[petey3801]

A workable compromise is to run secondary routes to say 9 pm then no service, and transfer the late night services to the GFN to maintain frequency well into the night. Why let obscure routes such as 110, 125 et al run hourly at night, but cut the core services? Should be the other way around with respect to late night service.

So people that don't live on BUZ routes get screwed and left out in the cold with zero services after 9pm, just so you don't have to wait a few extra minutes for your bus? Get over yourself. Not everyone lives on a high frequency BUZ route.

[somebody]

So people that don't live on BUZ routes get screwed and left out in the cold with zero services after 9pm, just so you don't have to wait a few extra minutes for your bus? Get over yourself. Not everyone lives on a high frequency BUZ route.

I think most members of this site have said that people that currently live on BUZ routes should also have access to high frequency services.  I don't really think this comment is fair.  I suppose that depends on land use - I don't think anyone is suggesting a high frequency service for Dalby.

[#Metro]

Disagree. I agree with simon - whats good for the goose is good for the gander. the premium go frequent network should run frequent service well into the night, even if it means secondary services have little or no service after 9 pm. Why? The premium service is premium, its the most legible, it evenly covers the city, and even if it had few passengers at night, the secondary route would have even *fewer*

[ozbob]

Ummm,  no point in running air parcels on every HF route to 11pm just because, it needs to based on the actual load demands. Some HF routes will be running at high frequency probably to midnight or even later when needed. Far better to spread some funding resources around, eg.  basic boost in 500 bus during the day for goodness sakes.  Running buses every 2 to 3 minutes on busways at times when patronage is minimal or nil is just waste and is reflected in the data.  There are many locations in SEQ that will benefit from some of the savings in not running every route HF to late at night just because that is some arbitrary standard.

[BrizCommuter]

Reports from work colleagues are that there is great anger from outer route 444 users. This is what happens when a service is cut to "upmarket" areas - could see this backlash coming a mile off!

Observations this morning included full 390 and 345 at Kelvin Grove Aldi, yet P343 "express" cruising on by with spare room. The merger of the P343 and the 345 will hopefully create more capacity on the inner 345 route.

[#Metro]

I'm not arguing about during the day. My point is about service standards on primary and secondary routes after 9 pm. I am saying that it would be preferable to concentrate frequency on the primary routes, rather than spread thin low night frequency everywhere at night. It is likely that the secondary routes would have even less patronage at night than the primary routes.

[SurfRail]

There might be an argument for keeping the 443 and running it the way the old 441 used to go (ie same as every other western rocket).

I will support rocket services where the full-time route takes a slower way in (eg via the busway rather than CCB), or maybe where there is no direct service to town and the options are inferior (eg western rockets via the freeway which avoid Indro completely).

I cannot support services like the Wynnum West rockets and the Sherwood rockets that are being proposed - these look regressive, especially the Sherwood one which does a loop near Tennyson.

[MaxHeadway]

Reports from work colleagues are that there is great anger from outer route 444 users.

I've seen good loadings on the 444, all the way out to Moggill, at least on weekdays. One factor in this route's success is probably its constrained catchment further out: there's very little need to cater for lateral travel.

[ozbob]

Yes, same crowd has been complaining bitterly about the long trips into town as well ...  so something is done to improve the situation in response to their complaints and they still don't get it ...

Plenty of buses at Indooroopilly, poor dears might have to change buses ... if the train is too traumatic ...  I know what I would be doing, bus to Indro rail and onto the train.  Beats sitting on Coro Drive for however long ...

P443 would ease the pain ..

[techblitz]

Reports from work colleagues are that there is great anger from outer route 444 users. This is what happens when a service is cut to "upmarket" areas - could see this backlash coming a mile off!

Observations this morning included full 390 and 345 at Kelvin Grove Aldi, yet P343 "express" cruising on by with spare room. The merger of the P343 and the 345 will hopefully create more capacity on the inner 345 route.

Was on the 2.30 outbound 345 and "bus full" no more pax allowed,after it left king George square!
Uni students

[ozbob]

I have seen 60 pax on a 524 as well, doesn't mean much.  The data clearly shows the bulk of pax on the 444 is Indro <-> CBD, the changes they are proposing are grounded in actual data.  The network has to work better for all, not just an elite ... 

[HappyTrainGuy]

Okay lets look at the northside. I won't include the 333/345 for obvious reasons.

Bracken Ridge. The 330 was a half hourly bus service. 327 terminates at Bracken Ridge during peak hour. 326 goes off to Sandgate. The 326/327 combo are hourly scenic tour routes. 6pm the buses are heading back to the depot. 329 is in peak direction only and stops pretty much at Norris Road. No rail feeders. Poor access to and from Bald Hills railway station. No access to Carseldine station. The only bus service that feeds into Chermside/citybound gets a boost because of the new busway (otherwise it would have looked very empty with a few buses running along it). Because the 330 is the only route going to the city of course people were going to use it. At night time it was already marginal on carrying air at a 30 minute frequency. Peak hour patronage goes through the roof becuase its the only route and the area it goes through. 325 zigs through Zillmere on a hourly frequency. It also acts as a feeder into Geebung station but only usefull in one direction along with copping the really bad congestion along Newman road and then again when it gets onto Hamilton road with a handful of cars being able to go through the lights at Gympie Road. 335 acts as a feeder into Carseldine station but the first outbound route gets there at 9am or something. So much for feeding from the Carseldine area towards Taigum. The 326/327 also zig zags through the Taigum/Zillmere area. Both arrive at Geebung the same time as the trains do so no matter what people transfering from the bus will miss connecting to the train. People connecting from the train to the bus will miss the bus. The 336/337 are great feeders for the Chermside and Aspley areas servicing the Chermside and Aspley interchanges, Geebung Railway station (closer than the 325 does stop wise), the Kedron Wavell and Geebung RSL, 3 major shopping complexes, multiple shopping areas that the 340 bypasses along Gympie Road, goes past something like 8 or 9 schools buuuuuuuuuuuuuut it starts at 8.30am and finishes at 4pm. 338/357/359 are just a mess of different combos going here change there becuase its 4.30 and is it a private school holiday so would it run via Bald Hills.

The new go network has a direct strathpine to sandgate route to replace the 326 + the 327 transfer. The Strathpine to Chermside route replaces the 327/329/340. The Chermside North loop extends the coverage replacing the 325/326/327/328/335/336/337/340/341 and to some extent the 346. Looks like the 338/359/357 mess will be a thing of the past. In a couple years the Geebung overpass will be completed allowing for a better interchange facility between rail to take place (removes the RSL stops for the 325 and moves to the existing 326/327/336/337 stops that are at the main entrance/platform crossover bridge). In a couple years a new road will be opening linking Bracken Ridge directly into Carseldine station. A few years the Northgate-Petrie section of railway line will be 4tph. The old QUT facility is getting upgraded to a mix usage facility. There are also plans for a overpass opposite Carseldine Station over the railway line on Beams road. That scrap yard there is also in the scope of works to be replaced with housing as too is the busland between Bracken Ridge and Carseldine. Telegraph road will have its overpass in a few years. Telegraph road is also being proposed to be widened to 2 lanes. The new network is also in a position to extend multiple frequent routes along with adding additional secondary routes to the mix. Bridgeman road is changing with alot of new housing going up around there. As too are new housing going up along Ridley Road (the 680 part/not the 340 part). The back of Strathpine to the north of Eatons Hill out to Cashmere is rapidly changing with new housing estates popping up everywhere. Even Zillmere is changing with new apartment complexes going up. It would be very easy to upgrade and extend the network for the northside when the MBRL, overpasses, new/upgraded roads, additional housing estates, mixed residential/retail areas and when the new network gets run in.

It looks like and I will say foam now but in the future with the new roads and infrastructure the area can really pick up some really good coverage. Add in the future NWTC and housing out that way increasing and it might see more cross town frequent or secondary routes and extensions.



Key:
Teal: F9 Aspley to City (extension to Carseldine Rail/Bus Interchange)
Red: F10 Taigum to City (extension to Carseldine Rail/Bus Interchange)
Yellow: F11 Chermside/Bracken Ridge (Split into two routes and modified to terminate at Carseldine Rail/Bus Interchange)
Green: S211 Strathpine to Chermside (untouched)
Blue: S212 Chermside North Loop (route change at Taigum to go along Church Road/Roghan Road/Carselgrove Ave. Not shown but send it down Ellison Road onto Newman road so it can access the rail/bus interchange at Geebung and then continue back onto Robinson Road because of the new overpass (Red dots mean the current bus stops. The interchange stops would be the ones closest to the station platform bridge))
Orange: S216 Brighton to Chermside (untouched)
Pink: SXXX Carseldine to Taigum via Bracken Ridge (Split from F11 and modified current 330)
Black: Railway lines. 4tph after the introduction of the MBRL services.
Grey: Ignore. Current 335 route that will get the chop.

So people that don't live on BUZ routes get screwed and left out in the cold with zero services after 9pm, just so you don't have to wait a few extra minutes for your bus? Get over yourself. Not everyone lives on a high frequency BUZ route.

I think most members of this site have said that people that currently live on BUZ routes should also have access to high frequency services.  I don't really think this comment is fair.  I suppose that depends on land use - I don't think anyone is suggesting a high frequency service for Dalby.

[petey3801]

Ummm,  no point in running air parcels on every HF route to 11pm just because, it needs to based on the actual load demands. Some HF routes will be running at high frequency probably to midnight or even later when needed. Far better to spread some funding resources around, eg.  basic boost in 500 bus during the day for goodness sakes.  Running buses every 2 to 3 minutes on busways at times when patronage is minimal or nil is just waste and is reflected in the data.  There are many locations in SEQ that will benefit from some of the savings in not running every route HF to late at night just because that is some arbitrary standard.

Exactly. No point running air parcels at high frequency late night while everyone else not on one of the 26 (or 27?) new HF routes completely misses out on any sort of service at all after 9pm.

As Bob correctly points out, some routes will need high frequency till late night, but that doesn't apply to all routes. There should be a minimum standard (like I said in another post, I feel 7-7 is slightly too restrictive, i'd say more 6-9 or 7-9), with frequencies after 9pm being determined on a route by route basis.

Non-HF routes should at least be 30-60min frequencies 9pm till late (ie: 11pm or midnight or so), so at least there is an option there.

[ozbob]

Understand some secondary changes have already been made.  Report on Channel 7 News this evening at 6pm.

[Jonno]

What is needed is a map showing how the High Frequency routes provides coverage of the the SEQ footprint.  Yes you might have to walk 600mtrs to the HT route bus stop.   Gaps need to be addressed.

Then another map overlaying current trips across SEQ to show match/ gaps. Gaps also need to be addressed by additional HF routes.

[ozbob]

Understand some secondary changes have already been made.  Report on Channel 7 News this evening at 6pm.

Minister interviewed said a bus will be going to Greenslopes Hospital, and expects some other changes.  This was always the purpose of the feedback.  Lord Mayor said there might be issues with the Adelaide Street super stop.  Cr Milton Dick was shown tearing up a 100 (I think) timetable ...  Mention of the 444 as well ...

All in all, not the best day one ... lol

TL need to get out and sell what they want to do and explain to BCC in particular what is actually happening.  By the look of the interview grabs with BCC I don't think they have ...

[somebody]

Understand some secondary changes have already been made.  Report on Channel 7 News this evening at 6pm.

Even the Minister seemed to be backing away from the changes.  Highlighted was the planned axing of the 172, leaving a 700m walk to the nearest service.  The Minister promised that Greenslopes Hospital would be served.

Council complained about single seat journeys being removed.  Well maybe they shouldn't have removed the bus lane on Coronation Drive!  Not to mention Lutwyche Rd.

What is needed is a map showing how the High Frequency routes provides coverage of the the SEQ footprint.  Yes you might have to walk 600mtrs to the HT route bus stop.   Gaps need to be addressed.

Then another map overlaying current trips across SEQ to show match/ gaps. Gaps also need to be addressed by additional HF routes.

So 600m is the benchmark?  I think that's more reasonable than 400m.  Still, there will be a lot of areas not serviced in the plan on the looser standard.

Ummm,  no point in running air parcels on every HF route to 11pm just because, it needs to based on the actual load demands. Some HF routes will be running at high frequency probably to midnight or even later when needed. Far better to spread some funding resources around, eg.  basic boost in 500 bus during the day for goodness sakes.  Running buses every 2 to 3 minutes on busways at times when patronage is minimal or nil is just waste and is reflected in the data.  There are many locations in SEQ that will benefit from some of the savings in not running every route HF to late at night just because that is some arbitrary standard.

As you have said to me, other people do have different viewpoints to you.  I don't think we have the same priorities

Okay lets look at the northside.

The point of this rambling being?

There might be an argument for keeping the 443 and running it the way the old 441 used to go (ie same as every other western rocket).

I think the exact opposite.  Moggill with interchange at Indro in peak has a clear advantage in getting out of Coro traffic, but no particular advantage out of peak, and a pretty significant disadvantage.  Cruel to be kind.  In fact, the interchange system may well see a greater PT use in peak hour for Moggill.

Reports from work colleagues are that there is great anger from outer route 444 users.

I've seen good loadings on the 444, all the way out to Moggill, at least on weekdays. One factor in this route's success is probably its constrained catchment further out: there's very little need to cater for lateral travel.

Exactly.  I've seen significant standing loads regularly leaving Indooroopilly interchange at around 5pm on a Saturday.  Last service is hardly an air parcel either, even on a Sunday.  IIRC it typically gets half a dozen people even on a Sunday.  Fri/Sat last service is standing room only, remaining so after Indooroopilly interchange.  100/120 gets used too, but perhaps slightly less.

[#Metro]

Exactly. No point running air parcels at high frequency late night while everyone else not on one of the 26 (or 27?) new HF routes completely misses out on any sort of service at all after 9pm.

As Bob correctly points out, some routes will need high frequency till late night, but that doesn't apply to all routes. There should be a minimum standard (like I said in another post, I feel 7-7 is slightly too restrictive, i'd say more 6-9 or 7-9), with frequencies after 9pm being determined on a route by route basis.

Non-HF routes should at least be 30-60min frequencies 9pm till late (ie: 11pm or midnight or so), so at least there is an option there.

I am going to disagree here, simply because I would prefer one bus that ran every 15 minutes late at night and walk (extra if required) rather than four buses that went to my suburb on an hourly frequency with all different routings and different bus numbers leaving from different parts of the CBD.