SEQ Bus Network Review

[ozbob]

One of the issues raised is school children. They do use it in a peaky way ...

[#Metro]

I would suggest that a school peak hour train service simply travel to sherwood for that purpose then. Just extend one of the FG line park road terminators (if that's where it stops) to Corinda in school peak.

If that's not good enough then in school peak hours, just run a school bus. Terminate it at Park Road.

Which school/s is this anyway?

[ozbob]

Some local schools at Corinda, as well as the opposite direction Yeronga, South Brisbane etc.

School traffic is both ways, and was heavy on the Tennyson lander in those days.  A number now do go via the CBD on rail, but not really optimal.

I am starting to think a local school service Corinda <-> Yeerongpilly might be the go ...

[Gazza]

Well put Gazza 

The off peak frequency on the Beenleigh Line should be doubled, at least to Coopers Plains to reduce waiting time for those transferring from the proposed new bus services.

The good thing is Coopers has 4tph already due to GC trains.

[Mr X]

I note the bus service servicing Yeronga primary and secondary schools has been cut, but the train station isn't too far away either. Quite a few students used the 105 to get to places not connected to rail.

[Cam]

Well put Gazza 

The off peak frequency on the Beenleigh Line should be doubled, at least to Coopers Plains to reduce waiting time for those transferring from the proposed new bus services.

The good thing is Coopers has 4tph already due to GC trains.

That's good for the majority. If your destination is not serviced by the GC services then you will face transfer delays of up to half an hour.

There should be a Mt Ommaney to Garden City via Darra and Salisbury or Coopers Plains stations. There are proposed Richlands and Forest Lake services to Garden City but neither connect with the Ipswich Line.

A Redbank or Goodna to Browns Plains service would be handy. You could then transfer to another service to Loganlea or Beenleigh. What about extending one of the proposed Browns Plains services to Redbank/Goodna? In the proposed changes you can take a Redbank or Goodna service to Springfield Central and transfer but you would have 4 transfers between Ipswich and the GC line which exceeds the limit of a Go Card journey.

[skippy]

The proposed changes make good use of the 15 min rail frequency gains at Oxley, Darra and the Ferny Grove Line. The bus-rail interchange needs good frequency on both modes to be successful IMHO. The likelihood of delays makes it virtually impossible to provide a smooth interchange consistently at 30 min frequencies on either mode.

The most obvious hole in the proposed bus - rail interchange is Buranda. The 30 min rail frequency will mean this interchange will continue to have limited appeal.

[ozbob]

Yes skippy, good point.  Transferring onto my local 524 at one hour frequency (30 minute peak) can be a painful experience.  Fortunately a few watering holes handy ... 

[Fattious]

The most obvious hole in the proposed bus - rail interchange is Buranda. The 30 min rail frequency will mean this interchange will continue to have limited appeal.

Buranda Station is co-located with the Buranda busway station.

[#Metro]

Brisbane City Council versus Auckland

Both cities have busways
Both cities have citywide amalgamated councils
Both cities have awful train systems
Both cities are to build CBD rail tunnels
Both cities have transit cards

Auckland has already done its bus review to unlock frequency across the city, we have our proposal but it needs to go through.

Bottom line really is that Brisbane Lord Mayor had better look across the ditch to see the kind of city we are competing with in the region for jobs, workers etc. You can't offer a bus network that collapses every time that it rains or there is heavy congestion and doesn't provide decent coverage and offer that to businesses etc!

This is what BCC is up against! Don't get left behind!!

The New Bus Network: a step change for Auckland
http://transportblog.co.nz/2012/09/19/the-new-bus-network-a-step-change-for-auckland/

[BrizCommuter]

The proposed changes make good use of the 15 min rail frequency gains at Oxley, Darra and the Ferny Grove Line.

The question is - will the Ferny Grove Line have it's 15min off-peak extended to evenings and weekends to match with the connecting bus services?

[triplethree]

Hi everyone,

Long time, no post, I've moved interstate.

All I can say is ... Wow! About time!

A few quibbles here and there as others have pointed out, but this is the breakthrough that Brisbane's bus network needed.

I hope that the proposed Moggill to UQ route retains some of its high frequency, during weekday daytimes and early evenings anyway and at least as far as Kenmore roundabout. I'm not sure if it's fair to remove high frequency from an area where high frequency is well established and where it is well used.

I also love how TransLink have finally woken up to the fact that it's possible to run 15-minute bus services feeding into 15-minute train services, extending the footprint of the frequent trains (it's no use having a train every 15 minutes if you have to wait 45 minutes for a bus once you get off the train).

One minor prediction: I bet ten pounds to a pinch of poo that Brisbane City Council will somehow find a way to throw a spanner in the works and stuff things up for TransLink. I don't know, maybe refuse to reconfigure on-street parking for the CBD super stops. Or introducing another wasteful duplicating bus route like the Maroon Glider (and I admire how TransLink accept the Maroon Glider as a fait accompli and have worked around it to remove unnecessary duplication, at the Paddington end anyway). Or retaining all those inconsistent, illegible and downright bizarre stopping patterns which even ASIO's best code-crackers couldn't make sense of - perhaps even adding a few more for good measure (just like the four separate stopping patterns on six routes along 2.7km between Macgregor Terrace and Petrie Terrace through Paddington).

Also, I've only skimmed through the report and don't have the time or energy to read it in depth - does it mention anything about standardising stop interval distances and reducing the variety of stopping patterns? The current situation where some routes have an average stop distance of 200m (like the 199 or 380, too short) and other routes about 1km or so (like the 333 or 385, too long) needs fixing IMO, as well as the stopping pattern issue.

[Mr X]

It would be nice if they ripped out 50% of the stops on the 196. I know I've talked about this before but the volume of stops is excessive!!

[HappyTrainGuy]

There might be an extra stop added to the 333 (outside the old WOW store/current CityFarmers store) which would reduce some spacing on the new route.

[somebody]

Also, I've only skimmed through the report and don't have the time or energy to read it in depth - does it mention anything about standardising stop interval distances and reducing the variety of stopping patterns? The current situation where some routes have an average stop distance of 200m (like the 199 or 380, too short) and other routes about 1km or so (like the 333 or 385, too long) needs fixing IMO, as well as the stopping pattern issue.

Not as far as I've seen.  I think it's a major failing of the report.  It does say that the 370 will go so one must presume one stopping pattern along Gympie Rd.  Perhaps some stops will be removed, but perhaps not.

[kazzac]

Looks like the new 13a will run  down Pashen street like the 232 does  so now near where I live  I (and my neighbors )will be able to catch either a 13a in Pashen St,only about 200 metre walk,or a  S308 service from Thynne Rd,or walk about 500 metres to Wynnum Rd for a 13b A big improvement on the current Frequency of the 235,can't wait for the changes

[achiruel]

(and I admire how TransLink accept the Maroon Glider as a fait accompli and have worked around it to remove unnecessary duplication, at the Paddington end anyway).

They've chopped off a fair bit of waste at the Gabba end as well.  200 - CUT.  66 is basically gone (the northern half has become the northern half on the UniGlider). 174/175 replacements are now routed through Buranda.  I think the MaroonGlider is actually needed now to keep a decent frequency through W'Gabba.

[Gazza]

^Thats one thing I think they should fix. The Logan Rd frequent route should enter at Gabba, and the Maroon Glider should stay on the busway instead of doing the silly thing it does now where it leaves and re-enters.

In other words, switch the routings over that segment.

I guess it means the Maroon Glider misses the Restaurants and Stadium at the Gabba, but stuff it, the 175 will what they should use in preference.

[somebody]

The question is - will the Ferny Grove Line have it's 15min off-peak extended to evenings and weekends to match with the connecting bus services?

I would be very surprised.  They've said that they aren't doing anything on improving rail frequency for two years.  Not sure when that started, but at least a year to go.

One point I'm sure you'll like is that there seems to be a reduction in frequency on the northern busway - now: 66 + 3 BUZes 330, 333, 340 - plan: UniGlider + 2 frequent routes 333+330 & 325/335.

And the 393 is going.

[Gazza]

They've said that they aren't doing anything on improving rail frequency for two years.

They could push it through under the table, as part of the Sector 2 review. I'd be fine with 7 till 7 tph on Saturday and Sunday as a starting point.

[BrizCommuter]

They've said that they aren't doing anything on improving rail frequency for two years.

They could push it through under the table, as part of the Sector 2 review. I'd be fine with 7 till 7 tph on Saturday and Sunday as a starting point.

Having a 15 minute frequency feeder bus route #8 connecting with a 30 minute frequency train service would be rather incompetent public transport planning!

[somebody]

^So why do they deserve the resources if they'll use it anyway?

I never said that they did.  Yet again you miss the point.



I'm tempted to leave it at that, but will elaborate.  The point of the evening services is to free people to leave the car at home when they go out in the evening, or even sell it.  I don't know too many people that never leave the house in the evening - not a lifestyle that I would like, I can tell you that.

Just focusing on captive markets does little to grow PT and keeps it locked into a second class service mindset.

[somebody]

I know I keep banging this drum Simon, but post 2016 when zillmere has 4tph due to Kippa Ring, I doubt many will be doing the whole run from Bracken Ridge to city on the 330.
As it is, the train is 10 mins faster in the crucial peak period, from Zillmere, and the wait time for the train is max 6 minutes, so the transfer penalty is miniscule.

Check the timetable before posting stuff like this.  In fact, the train takes 27 minutes to Central while the bus takes 30 minutes to King George Square.  The difference is the same as the average waiting time, and the walking time is likely more from Central by a greater margin.  The train might have higher reliability though.

[#Metro]

The point of the evening services is to free people to leave the car at home when they go out in the evening, or even sell it.  I don't know too many people that never leave the house in the evening - not a lifestyle that I would like, I can tell you that.

I agree with Simon. On this point I think I agree with Brisbane Transport's philosophy because I think they recognise that late night services aren't really about patronage, they're about convenience. Yes it costs money, but this is the high frequency trunk network. If we took demand as the guide, then well we may never had ever seen the growth in weekends and off peak that we did.

I too don't like the idea of having to be tucked into bed by 7 pm, that's garbage! If I leave work at 5 pm, get home 7, spend an hour doing stuff then whoops, I can't go anywhere else after that. To TL's credit the routes slated for GFN will be frequent until 9pm - 10 pm. But I will say I have been caught out and racked up huge taxi bills that I think most people would not tolerate. This is especially when you are out at dinner (say in Bulimba!) and it's 9pm or 10pm and then the bus comes 30 minutes, 20 minutes travel time then you have to make a connection, another 30 minutes, another 20 minutes = almost two hours lost on PT and oh look it is midnight.

I don't want to return to the bad old days when I used to work in the Queen Street Mall and have to shut up the shop late friday night and go home and wait in the dark for 30 minutes or 1 hour (if I decided to go and eat food after my shift) for the 196 to show up. Real people would simply say "stuff that!" and jump in their car.

20 minute frequency might be a compromise at night after 9pm or 10 pm or whatever it is. There is scope to run the busway service and the service to chermside 24 hours I believe. Cities overseas such as Toronto do this every day on their hourly night network.

In an ideal world, bus services would run 24/7 on the busiest corridors, negating the need to own a car.

[HappyTrainGuy]

FFS the buses won't stop running at 7pm!

What I really want to know is how the feeder network frequency and span of hours is going to stack up. If they stay the same 1 hour frequency off peak then this bus review can go and get fudged. Personally I'd rather see the entire network have a 9pm standard. The frequent routes can still maintain the 4bph frequency till final service or it can be rolled back till final service. For the secondary routes the services can stop or continue running to a defined time/frequency accordingly.

[minbrisbane]

Exactly!  Like I've already said, it seems at least 7 - 19 will be the standard, not the rule. 

I'm with you anyway, I'd prefer the standard to be at least till 2100, however it seems most routes will retain that service anyway. 

Imho It's really time for the rail services to be beefed up to match the bus network.

[somebody]

FFS the buses won't stop running at 7pm!

Perhaps so, but only because each route runs until at least 9pm (why don't they just make the overall standard 9pm then?), and then we don't know if it runs at all or runs on a lower frequency. 

[longboi]

FFS the buses won't stop running at 7pm!

Perhaps so, but only because each route runs until at least 9pm (why don't they just make the overall standard 9pm then?), and then we don't know if it runs at all or runs on a lower frequency.

I don't think it's possible to discuss span and frequency until some draft timetables are prepared and released.

All we know for sure is that between 7am and 7pm, the high frequency routes will have at least 15min frequency. That's not to say those same routes won't have that frequency right up until midnight or perhaps 15min frequency short workings and then 30min full route after 7pm (which could very well be the case for 330+333) or that time could be 8pm or 10pm.

My point is - I think it's counterproductive to get too caught up in the marketing side of things. It's going to be based on current patronage so, for example, if the 180 currently carries < 7 people after 7 pm but the 184/185 carry 15 people after 7pm, then you can figure out which go network route is going to operate at reduced frequency after 7pm and which one will continue with 15min frequency.

UPDATE: For those who aren't aware, indicative span is provided in the report for high frequency routes.

[Gazza]

^So why do they deserve the resources if they'll use it anyway?

I never said that they did.  Yet again you miss the point.



I'm tempted to leave it at that, but will elaborate.  The point of the evening services is to free people to leave the car at home when they go out in the evening, or even sell it.  I don't know too many people that never leave the house in the evening - not a lifestyle that I would like, I can tell you that.

Just focusing on captive markets does little to grow PT and keeps it locked into a second class service mindset.

My point is though, for those marginal future buz routes (think like current 340 or the 120,), I'd rather compromise and have 4bph till 9pm or so, with reduced frequency thereafter, rather than TL/govt be too scared to implement it at all due to to the financial burden of having 4bph till 11pm "locked in" as part of the commitment because 'that's the rule'.

Imagine that the Noosa-Maroocy 620 got upgraded to high frequency. If it had to be 4bph till 11pm we'd probably get laughed out of the room. If we proposed 4bph till 9pm or so, with a ramp down in service till midnight, that would actually have a chance of getting up.

Understand where im coming from?

[somebody]

I don't think it's possible to discuss span and frequency until some draft timetables are prepared and released.

All we know for sure is that between 7am and 7pm, the high frequency routes will have at least 15min frequency. That's not to say those same routes won't have that frequency right up until midnight or perhaps 15min frequency short workings and then 30min full route after 7pm (which could very well be the case for 330+333) or that time could be 8pm or 10pm.

Hmm, you're saying that the 15 minute frequency will end at 7pm for all of the frequent network and then the route will stop completely at the time indicated.  I guess that's the most satisfactory reading of the of the report.  It isn't very nice.

My point is though, for those marginal future buz routes (think like current 340 or the 120,), I'd rather compromise and have 4bph till 9pm or so, with reduced frequency thereafter, rather than TL/govt be too scared to implement it at all due to to the financial burden of having 4bph till 11pm "locked in" as part of the commitment because 'that's the rule'.
...

Understand where im coming from?

I do, I just disagree with you.  You don't see Metrobus making the huge difference to patronage that BUZ has, for example.  Smartbus in Melbourne has helped but those are not radial routes - connecting shopping centres largely only works when the shopping centres are open.

[#Metro]

I agree with simon on this. Melbourne smart bus is half hearted demand led. On weekends 'according to demand' it has greatly reduced service, and at night. you can easily waste hour or more in the dark trying to go home safely, hence massive taxi bills approaching $100 per week. I don't bother with sydney metrobus.

Its a bit like building emergency fire equipment, its rarely used but under the reports logic you would remove it...

[HappyTrainGuy]

Or in the case of some routes it's like building emergency equipment to put out a fire in the middle of the desert.

[ozbob]

Page 28,

Proposed Brisbane frequent network descriptions

http://translink.com.au/resources/travel-information/service-updates/seq-bus-network-review/seq-network-review-part3-proposed-network.pdf

to 11pm or later 14 - 54%

to 10pm 5   - 19%

to 9pm 7 - 27%

I think they are just trying to conserve resources.  All routes are underway by 6am most start earlier.

[somebody]

All routes are underway by 6am most start earlier.

But don't necessarily run at 15 minute frequency until 7am.  This is explicitly stated on page 27 (part 3).

[Gazza]

Smartbus in Melbourne has helped but those are not radial routes

But Metrobus doesn't have it frequent 7 days a week across the board does it (20 min weekend frequency ) ? And smart bus routes in Melbourne are 30 min frequency on weekends.
I for one advocate 15 min frequency 7 days a week. This is where they have mostly gone wrong down south IMO.

Or to put it another way, the weekend frequency is more important than the late night frequency, IMO, if you were priortising improvements.

connecting shopping centres largely only works when the shopping centres are open.

And this is what I'm getting at when I say some routes are "Marginal". There are some radial routes which we might like to see BUZed, but lack a good anchor at the far end because they just go to boring suburbs.
In marginal areas i think the realistic goal would be more about minimising car use, rather than expecting someone 20km from the CBD to live without one.

And what about rail feeders? I'd love it if more routes feeding oxley were 4bph, such as the proposed 467/468 replacment, but id happily accept it a 4bph going till 9pm, rather than 11pm.

But don't necessarily run at 15 minute frequency until 7am.

Observation, but if a route is closer to the CBD, the frequent service might be planned to start later since you don't have to allow for such a long commute time....In the outer surbubs, 'peak hour' starts earlier due to this effect.

[somebody]

Metrobus might be conspicuous, but not by its success.  At least for the STA routes.  There's a few good features and lots of mediocre ones.

[Gazza]

And the other thing I want to point out that keeps getting missed, is that running certain routes at high frequency late at night to try and allow some to live without cars, takes money away from upgrading routes from half hourly in the daytime/weekends.

Is it ok that Bulimba has 30 min frequency in the daytime, but the 340 has 15 min frequency at 10pm, as a prime example of what I'm getting at. I think the priorties are wrong if we have these sort of outcomes.

Ideally you might have both, but funding is limited.

[somebody]

And the other thing I want to point out that keeps getting missed, is that running certain routes at high frequency late at night to try and allow some to live without cars, takes money away from upgrading routes from half hourly in the daytime/weekends.

Is it ok that Bulimba has 30 min frequency in the daytime, but the 340 has 15 min frequency at 10pm, as a prime example of what I'm getting at. I think the priorties are wrong if we have these sort of outcomes.

Ideally you might have both, but funding is limited.

No point is getting missed.  I just fundamentally disagree with your priorities.

[Gazza]

So you think late night is more important than daytime?

[HappyTrainGuy]

What is your stance about people that don't live on buz routes that have services stop at sun set or just a poor frequency while a couple buz routes nearby constantly run empty on high frequencies because of the lack of trip generators along the route? The 310 stops around 6-7pm on the weekends. Inbound 335s have their buses stop at 7ish. My local 338 stops running to Strathpine early in the evening. What about them not having a car which is a large portion of Brisbane.