SEQ Bus Network Review

[#Metro]

We're seeking your input about each of the individual bus routes you currently use.

Good point. We can do the survey multiple times about each bus route!

[ozbob]

From the Couriermail Quest click here!

SEQ buses under the microscope in TransLink network review

SEQ buses under the microscope in TransLink network review

    by: James Drew, South-West News
    From: Quest Newspapers
    September 10, 2012 1:56PM

It does not take a statistician to discover duplications and inefficiencies in TransLink's bus network. That is why the department has called on average-Joe commuter to have his or her say on what routes need straightening out.

This morning TransLink launched its Southeast Queensland Bus Network Review which will be taking public submissions until September 23.

Commuters who log on to translink.com.au or call 13 12 30 can fill out a review form and make comment on up to 475 different bus routes.

The review follows a slump in bus patronage across 13 of Queensland's 16 bus transport providers.

Public transport advocate Robert Dow, of Goodna, says he has already filled out a number of reviews on his more regular bus journeys.

"The bus review we think is a very important step in getting people back onto public transport,'' Rail Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow said.

"Today they want some direct feedback on routes people are using, because from a planning perspective they can't always pick up on the nuances, problems or good points about various routes.

"It's a good opportunity and we would encourage everyone to fill out the review. It only takes a couple of minutes and it's something quite useful.''

Mr Dow called on planners to ditch single-seat rides from the suburbs to Brisbane City and instead create more frequent suburban services to feed into a core city network.

"There is a belief in some circles that people need a single-seat journey all the way from the suburbs to the city, but that causes inefficiencies in the network and congestion in the CBD during peaks,'' he said.

Transport and Main Roads Minister Scott Emerson said the review's project team had already begun collecting opinion from local MPs and bus operators.

"I would encourage passengers to take part in the review to ensure their voices are heard as we set about building a better network and ultimately deliver more reliable, frequent and affordable services,'' he said.

"This (service review) is the first round of passenger feedback, with a second opportunity to provide input at a later stage of the review.''

In the planning team's waste-busting cross hairs is bus duplication, dodgy route connections and overcrowding.

"Where the review identifies a route that requires attention, different options will be considered such as frequency reduction, changes to the span of operating hours, route truncation, service replacement or service removal,'' he said.

Click here to complete the survey, or call 13 12 30.

[Jonno]

If you use different bus routes, nothing stopping you commenting on each one.

The only purpose of this will be to axe services people don't like.  There is no real desire for an outcome that looks to redesign the system.

[ozbob]

The stated aims are:

http://jp.translink.com.au/travel-information/service-updates/details/1346370543

The key objectives of the Network Review are:

    Eliminating service duplication
    Managing the infrastructure capacity (e.g. Cultural Centre busway station congestion)
    Getting more people on public transport by simplifying the network
    Getting better connectivity between services and modes
    Redirecting resources to routes where there is overcrowding
    Offering Demand Responsive Transport options where appropriate (such as taxis, flexibus services, para transit options etc).

I think there will be an attempt to sort out many of the problems.   TransLink are aware of the need to move to a better formed network.  Improving bus/rail connections and bus/bus connections.

From http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=9047.msg108707#msg108707

This is how the master plan puts it: "The current radial one-seat bus service network, which attempts to provide single-service bus transport from many origins to many destinations, has little capacity for growth and is not adequate to the task of meeting complex 21st century travel patterns."

Different state but same realisation ...

[ozbob]

If you use different bus routes, nothing stopping you commenting on each one.

The only purpose of this will be to axe services people don't like.  There is no real desire for an outcome that looks to redesign the system.

If it turns out as you suggest, there will be turmoil at many levels.  I think this is a real attempt to start sorting the network out.  I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt at this time.

[#Metro]

I think they don't have much of a choice now:

- 5 years ago The Mass Transit Report by the Lord Mayor (now premier) pointed at Busway capacity issues, and now Cultural Centre is full and city streets are groaning under the bus load

- Different parts of the city have protested at their lack of service, in particular, petitions have been started in Northwest, Centenary and Bulimba for more service

- The 'taxi-style' network is HUGELY expensive, resulting in the highest fares and highest government subsidies with in THE WORLD for LOW FREQUENCY plus very large cost escalations in fares year on year have made this avenue very difficult as people don't want to pay more anymore.

[SurfRail]

My sources at TransLink say they are dead serious about drastic changes this time.

[Gazza]

I think they've got a mandate, I mean if they can get away with 10,000 job cuts then shuffling around a few bus routes is childs play.

[Golliwog]

My sources at TransLink say they are dead serious about drastic changes this time.

Good to hear. Hopefully they mean the good type of drastic and not just massive cuts.

I just gave feedback on my most commonly used routes, at times I felt like I was using the free text box to write a short story about the route.

[Mr X]

I think they've got a mandate, I mean if they can get away with 10,000 job cuts then shuffling around a few bus routes is childs play.

They could easily dump 100 bus routes off the bat. The network is THAT duplicated.

[Golliwog]

I think they've got a mandate, I mean if they can get away with 10,000 job cuts then shuffling around a few bus routes is childs play.

They could easily dump 100 bus routes off the bat. The network is THAT duplicated.

I have noticed though the the survey is mostly looking for bus duplications. The only way that I could list that the 390 duplicates part of the Ferny Grove line was to not pick a bus route and then tick the other box and write that it was actually the train there. Luckily the boxes seem to have very high character limits.

[Gazza]

390, lol, never knew about the route till now.

Duplicates a BUZ for the first half, and a rail line for the other half. That's a special kind of winning.

[Golliwog]

390, lol, never knew about the route till now.

Duplicates a BUZ for the first half, and a rail line for the other half. That's a special kind of winning.

I'm a bit mixed on that one. At times Samford Rd is away from the rail line and it has stops in between the stations so serves a bit of a different catchment area, but there is a fair bit of duplication. That said, if I was a random passenger and had to get a 362/398/397 to the train line, catch a train to Alderley then catch a 345 to my destination along Kedron Brook Rd I doubt I'd be particularly happy (especially given the current rail and frequency of the non-BUZ routes). That said, in my experience, the majority of the patronage of the service is city bound, though I've heard of a number of QUT students using it as well.

[Gazza]

Well, here's how it sits in the rail catchment:


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[somebody]

390, lol, never knew about the route till now.

Duplicates a BUZ for the first half, and a rail line for the other half. That's a special kind of winning.

But it does serve the blue stops along that route.  Can't say that about the 88's Indro leg.

[#Metro]

They could easily dump 100 bus routes off the bat. The network is THAT duplicated.

Actually I agree. You could absorb 25% of the bus routes and notice no difference, I daresay up to 50% could be amalgamated while actually improving PT in the city. The CFN model only has about 90 bus routes in it, and BT runs 220! For example, if route 198 was abolished, I doubt if many would notice. A lot of the P bus routes are nothing but the normal bus route with ticket restrictions - something that is irritating and annoying - remove paper ticketing and there is no need for P bus routes. It also makes the loads unbalanced and is disintegrated ticketing as there you have a bus that won't accept your fares. Silly.

Rockets everywhere is very confusing and though I don't doubt the need to have SOME rockets, this idea of having a bazillion rockets firing all over the shop like a fireworks factory is OTT. Nobody knows where they all go and they all leave from so many different places - Centenary and Sunnybank are particular areas that suffer from 'Too many rockets fired at my house' syndrome.

[Gazza]

But it does serve the blue stops along that route.

When you are that close to the city, do you really gain much by having 2 tiers of stops?

[#Metro]

Gazza, what is the diameter you used for the circles? Rail is low frequency, and thus the circles should be smaller.
Main road - so I don't think it is bad have a bus to mop up the excess and then interchange with the train at a station.

[somebody]

But it does serve the blue stops along that route.

When you are that close to the city, do you really gain much by having 2 tiers of stops?

You gain coverage.  If you don't want that you could remove the whole service.

[Gazza]

Rail is low frequency, and thus the circles should be smaller.

800m, but I thought you knew the FGY frequency upgrade was coming very shortly???

It's safe to assume decisions made in the bus review will reflect this.

Or were you nitpicking 

You gain coverage.  If you don't want that you could remove the whole service.

Just have one tier of stops. Outside the BCC area this is how it's done.

A coverage route for the area would be exactly that, it would delve down into the area bounded by samford rd and banks st, and the area around Taylors Rd and Frasers Rd Mitchellton.

[#Metro]

800m, but I thought you knew the FGY frequency upgrade was coming very shortly???

NITPICKING

Of course I do, but that's only interpeak, it's not really BUZ standard, and I would like to see it BUZ standard.
I am agreeing with you but I think Simon has a minor point that it's a simplification and the bus would cover
areas not accessible (i.e. between stations and destinations on the road). I don't think I would walk from Mitchelton train
station to Michelton Shopping Centre for example.

Thanks for the image

[Gazza]

I don't think I would walk from Mitchelton train
station to Michelton Shopping Centre for example.

Bro, I walk 50% further than that distance every monday, from the Chancellors Place to my morning tute room (640m)

Would you really transfer for a 400m ride?

Of course I do, but that's only interpeak, it's not really BUZ standard, and I would like to see it BUZ standard.

Perth trains aren't at BUZ standard for what it's worth, but they still feed in a lot, and don't compete.

I'd like to see the weekend frequency boosted, but FWIW the 390 is only half hourly on weekends, so the bus has no advantage presently?

[Golliwog]

Well, here's how it sits in the rail catchment:
[IMGt]http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/6232/390catchment.jpg[/img]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Fair point. I was thinking mostly off peak when the trains are currently only 2 an hour. Once the trains are improved though I think keep the route number, but run it further afield as it should really be only for those that aren't willing to walk all the way to the station (ie: the elderly, disabled, parents with small children, etc) mostly on the south side of Samford Road. It would still be useful to avoid a double change to get to somewhere on Kelvin Grove Rd (aka QUT).

I'd be tempted to transfer for a bus for a 400m ride if the bus was right there and it was a continuation fare (i.e: free).

[O_128]

Cut the 199/196 bus stops. Cut the dwell at Adelaide st, synchronise them so a 199 and 196 don't turn up once.

230/235 frequency upgrades !!

[#Metro]

Bro, I walk 50% further than that distance every monday, from the Chancellors Place to my morning tute room (640m)

Would you really transfer for a 400m ride?

So are you suggesting pull the route entirely from the main road?

I'd like to see the weekend frequency boosted, but FWIW the 390 is only half hourly on weekends, so the bus has no advantage presently?

This is a good point.

[Gazza]

So are you suggesting pull the route entirely from the main road?

Well yeah I guess, doing so would increase rail patronage, and accomodating them would cost $0.
its not like there is a bus to the city running parallel to the rail line through Oxley-Chelmer is there?

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/seq-bus-network-review-public.html
BrizCommuter's view on the SEQ Bus Network Review.

390, lol, never knew about the route till now.

Duplicates a BUZ for the first half, and a rail line for the other half. That's a special kind of winning.

BrizCommuter usually uses the 390 in the pm peak, as it's considerably faster and more frequent than using the Ferny Grove Line to Enoggera. Fix the Ferny Grove Line's frequency (which has multiple 20min+ pm peak gaps) and BrizCommuter may go back to using the train.

The 390 is very popular as an all stops route where it parallels the limited stops 345. Eliminating the 390 would require another bus to serve all stops.

Upon listening into other passengers conversations it seems that many other passengers also use the 390 (and 345 to Alderley) due to the abysmal train service.

[SurfRail]

I see no reason for the 390 to exist if Brisbane gets rid of its stupid obssession with tiered services.  They make no sense whatsoever over the distances involved.  Having stops at regular intervals (400-600 metres), bus priority on main roads and frequency cures the issues which they are supposed to fix, and without making the system stupidly hard to navigate. 

Maybe in peak hour some "non-stop from [ x ]" services are needed on selected routes due to capacity.  Outside of peak, why would you bother?

The resources from the 390 could be better used providing good feeders to the Ferny Grove line, or more frequent services south of Enoggera Road directly to the city where there is no railway line competing.

[Gazza]

The 390 is very popular as an all stops route where it parallels the limited stops 345. Eliminating the 390 would require another bus to serve all stops.

Upon listening into other passengers conversations it seems that many other passengers also use the 390 (and 345 to Alderley) due to the abysmal train service.

My response to that is to fix the cause, not the symptoms.

It's clearly having your cake and eating it too, to want both services to stick around for general commuter use.

Rail line gets freqeuncy (7 days per week) 390 becomes a shoppers bus.

[Golliwog]

I agree. But as BC pointed out, part of the problem is the FG line has issues with frequency even in peak. And unless they've changed their minds, the change to the FG timetables is only to the off peak timetable (which is going to lead to the awesome outcome where off peak has gaps between services smaller than some that exist in peak hour when you pay more for that 'convenience').

That said, I think QR is aware of it and plan to make the timetable more evenly spread when they eventually get around to the phase 2 timetable review. What is really needed is a full network review, not just bus, or just rail.

Gazza: part of the problem is rail capacity on the suburbans in peak hour. Not something easily fixed when you have to share it with Airport, Doomben and Shorncliffe trains.

[somebody]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/seq-bus-network-review-public.html
BrizCommuter's view on the SEQ Bus Network Review.

390, lol, never knew about the route till now.

Duplicates a BUZ for the first half, and a rail line for the other half. That's a special kind of winning.

BrizCommuter usually uses the 390 in the pm peak, as it's considerably faster and more frequent than using the Ferny Grove Line to Enoggera. Fix the Ferny Grove Line's frequency (which has multiple 20min+ pm peak gaps) and BrizCommuter may go back to using the train.

The 390 is very popular as an all stops route where it parallels the limited stops 345. Eliminating the 390 would require another bus to serve all stops.

Upon listening into other passengers conversations it seems that many other passengers also use the 390 (and 345 to Alderley) due to the abysmal train service.

From RCH Herston to Enoggera your options are
- 333/376 to Windsor then train
- Bus (330/333/340/66) to Normanby then other bus (390/350/351/357/359) to Enoggera

I know which option looks better to me.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Sorry but I call bullsh%t. The 390 can easily be cut between Alderley-busway and add an extra few stops to the 345. The stops are already close together. An example of wtf infrastructure upgrades done in that corridor was the expensive looking brand new upgraded bus shelter, new pathways, indent in the sidewalk just for buses to stop when just a couple hundred metres down the road... or across the bridge is the 345 buz stop. See if you can spot the two bus stops http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.442345,153.007214&z=18&t=h&nmd=20120902 or even better spot the inbound stop directly after it http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-27.44513,153.008137&z=19&t=h&nmd=20120902

From RCH Herston to Enoggera your options are
- 333/376 to Windsor then train

Forgot the 340 if you want a one seat trip. But there's also the 66/330/333 + 321/332/334/370/375/379. During peak hour its a bus every minute or so between RBWHBS-Windsor station stop so its not like there's a huge wait.

[SurfRail]

Theoretical (at 20 trains per hour, one departure from Central every 3 minutes with all FG trains leaving 3 and other services leaving 4, Doomben train follows the Airport train and Shorncliffe trains should not have a huge impact on the express pattern):

5:00    Ferny Grove
5:03    Airport
5:06    Doomben
5:09    Ferny Grove
5:12    Shorncliffe
5:15    Ferny Grove
5:18    Airport
5:21    Doomben
5:24    Ferny Grove
5:27    Shorncliffe
5:30    Ferny Grove
5:33    Airport
5:36    Doomben
5:39    Ferny Grove
5:42    Shorncliffe
5:45    Ferny Grove
5:48    Airport
5:51    Doomben
5:54    Ferny Grove
5:57    Shorncliffe
6:00    Ferny Grove

Current (any corrections would be appreciated):
5:03    Ferny Grove
5:07    Shorncliffe
5:08    Airport
5:13    Doomben
5:17    Ferny Grove express
5:21    Shorncliffe express
5:24    Ferny Grove
5:31    Mitchelton
5:35    Ferny Grove
5:38    Shorncliffe
5:38    Airport
5:46     Ferny Grove
5:55    Shorncliffe
5:57     Ferny Grove
6:00    Doomben

[Arnz]

21tph on the suburbans if you include the GYN (Gympie) departure at 1749, if the suburbans are kept at 20tph, it would mean one less Doomben or Airport train.

[Golliwog]

I'd approve of that Surfrail. Though that said, I'm a FG commuter so I could be a little biased. Wouldn't Shorncliffe need more trains as well?

Also, how are the current <3 minute gaps handled? I notice there is a Shorncliffe and Airport train currently both scheduled to depart at 5.38...

[somebody]

Forgot the 340 if you want a one seat trip. But there's also the 66/330/333 + 321/332/334/370/375/379. During peak hour its a bus every minute or so between RBWHBS-Windsor station stop so its not like there's a huge wait.

Yes, ok.

The real problem is getting from Windsor to Enoggera for the proposed trip though.

[SurfRail]

I'd approve of that Surfrail. Though that said, I'm a FG commuter so I could be a little biased. Wouldn't Shorncliffe need more trains as well?

Also, how are the current <3 minute gaps handled? I notice there is a Shorncliffe and Airport train currently both scheduled to depart at 5.38...

Not sure on that, it looked odd to me.  The TL website and JP weren't working for me yesterday so I couldn't validate this.

With CRR, the Airport and Shorncliffe services get attached to the mains through the city to Bowen Hills so those slots would go to extra FG services.  With a little bit of work on the Doomben line, you would have a train to Ferny Grove every 3 minutes except for the 6 minute gaps where a Doomben train goes through at say once every 12 minutes.

Long and short of this is there is plenty of untapped capacity on the FG line to absorb bus patronage now the second track is done.  The limitation appears to be rollingstock, not track capacity (although you would eventually want to build the Y-link from Mayne to Windsor).

[HappyTrainGuy]

Forgot the 340 if you want a one seat trip. But there's also the 66/330/333 + 321/332/334/370/375/379. During peak hour its a bus every minute or so between RBWHBS-Windsor station stop so its not like there's a huge wait.

Yes, ok.

The real problem is getting from Windsor to Enoggera for the proposed trip though.

I know. Just adding the other available options to access heavy rail at Windsor as you made it look sort of one sided

[kazzac]

Cut the 199/196 bus stops. Cut the dwell at Adelaide st, synchronise them so a 199 and 196 don't turn up once.

230/235 frequency upgrades !!

I agree!!And why is there there so many different routes running along Old Cleveland Road ?route dupliction right there! 200,,204,209 and 222,I notice   as I drive along there on my way home every arvo.Isn't 222 almost the same as 200 anyway?

[WTN]

Even the 196 and 199 don't share all their stops. Throw in the Cityglider for even more variation confusion.

Old Cleveland Rd duplications are a complete joke! There's 200, 203, 204, P206, P207, 209, 217, 222, 250, with a mix of stops served. Seriously, do we need that many routes on a common corridor? Probably even worse than 13x and 14x on Mains Rd.

Even Carindale buses going via the Chatswood Rd and Winstanley St corridor have their own inconsistent mess. P201 is non stop Buranda-Carindale. 202 is a complete milk run trying to serve Highgate Hill, Dutton Park, PAH and wander the streets behind Winstanley St. P208 at least cuts this short via Buranda Busway but only has 3 services per peak period. P205 makes a few stops along the SAME section expressed by P201, but does not stop at the interchange. The 202 really needs to be chopped up into separate routes. Think local feeders and a frequent, LEGIBLE spine down Chatswood Rd and Winstanley St, then onto the busway at Buranda.