SEQ Bus Network Review

[Gazza]

Yes, but that, by and large, proves that people are already happy walking to the current express stops, meaning there would be no loss at all by deleting the all-stoppers.

Why do you hate the grannies so much?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

[somebody]

How do the grannies survive outside of Brisbane?

Sydney: mostly by slowing down buses with close stop spacing.

[Gazza]

How do the grannies survive outside of Brisbane?

Sydney: mostly by slowing down buses with close stop spacing.

Still, their buses have higher usage than ours so it can't harm them too much.

[somebody]

From translink themselves:

Chermside Bus Station and Layover
...

That's a great blurb.  Searching shows it was in part 4 of the second review.

I wonder if anyone has any info about this bit:

Recent planning undertaken by TMR has identified the following infrastructure solution:

[James]

Yes, but that, by and large, proves that people are already happy walking to the current express stops, meaning there would be no loss at all by deleting the all-stoppers.

Why do you hate the grannies so much?

If we're going to even start talking about grannies, we should go and look at the areas with no public transport at all rather than the ones having to walk another few hundred metres (most of the areas along Moggill Road have the 415 in close proximity a lot of the time anyway).

Closer stop spacing isn't the answer either. Especially when a bus stops everywhere, this drives people up the wall.

[kazzac]

 

[Set in train]

With the latest stage of the review now on the TL site, for the moment, here's a cached copy of what was there:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SDoFWCCUvKEJ:translink.com.au/travel-information/service-updates/seq-bus-network-review+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au

(Until google's search bot updates it)

You can look at all routes still by substituting XXX for the route number:

http://translink.com.au/resources/travel-information/service-updates/seq-bus-network-review/Route-XXX.png

[ozbob]

Twitter

Katherine Feeney ‏@katherinefeeney 8m

(Warning, BNE transport rage approaching): 7:45am boarded bus at St Lucia. 8:43am disembark in the city. Almost 1hr for a 35 min bike ride!!

==============

[#Metro]

Should have caught the CityCat, CityKat.
Bus lane would have helped, lol.

[HappyTrainGuy]

~12.50pm the outbound 330, 333 and 340 were bumper to bumper at the lights on Kitchner road. All 3 had variable loadings with everyone opting for a window seat. 375 and 37x (not 370) also bumper to bumper heading to albion. Happy rate rise Brisbane!

[ozbob]

Will buses parked on Victoria Bridge need a parking permit too?  So many questions ...

[Cam]

CityKat would have been frustrated being stuck in one of the buses inbound on Coronation Drive yesterday afternoon. Traffic was stopped between Toowong & the CBD between 3.30 & 4pm due to multiple incidents on the Pacific Motorway south of Brisbane. Buses would have been delayed by half an hour or more due to the lack of a bus/transit lane inbound on Coronation Drive.

It would have been quicker to walk to the city from Toowong yesterday afternoon than take the bus or drive along Coronation Drive.

[James]

CityKat would have been frustrated being stuck in one of the buses inbound on Coronation Drive yesterday afternoon. Traffic was stopped between Toowong & the CBD between 3.30 & 4pm due to multiple incidents on the Pacific Motorway south of Brisbane. Buses would have been delayed by half an hour or more due to the lack of a bus/transit lane inbound on Coronation Drive.

It would have been quicker to walk to the city from Toowong yesterday afternoon than take the bus or drive along Coronation Drive.

Or even better, use one of those mysterious things that run on rails. 

I avoid Coronation Drive bus-wise unless I'm travelling to the CBD or parts of the northside. Especially for major southside/eastside destinations, going via UQ Lakes/UQ Chancellors Place is not only a bit quicker, but less prone to delays and nicer than waiting out in the exhaust fumes of Adelaide street or sitting in a traffic jam.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Or even better, use one of those mysterious things that run on rails. 

Brisbane got rid of trams years ago. 

[ozbob]

[#Metro]

It would have been quicker to walk to the city from Toowong yesterday afternoon than take the bus or drive along Coronation Drive.

Oh golly gosh, just think of the children and elderly! We couldn't POSSIBLY have buses go to the train station to bypass this farce. Oh no, can't POSSIBLY walk 10 meters and wait a few minutes for a train, no, must force everyone to sit in traffic for one hour instead.

[HappyTrainGuy]

It would have been quicker to walk to the city from Toowong yesterday afternoon than take the bus or drive along Coronation Drive.

Oh golly gosh, just think of the children and elderly! We couldn't POSSIBLY have buses go to the train station to bypass this farce. Oh no, can't POSSIBLY walk 10 meters and wait a few minutes for a train, no, must force everyone to sit in traffic for one hour instead.

It's common sense mate. Everyone knows that nobody interchanges.Everyone must have a 1 seat journey if they want to use PT in Brisbane. Its also a fact that people don't travel east-west on the Northside.

[Mr X]

At cultural centre and just seen the 5th almost empty maroon cityglider in the half hour i've been waiting. Absolute madness.

[#Metro]

Can someone please photograph this during peak hour. Thanks

[techblitz]

At cultural centre and just seen the 5th almost empty maroon cityglider in the half hour i've been waiting. Absolute madness.

I avoid half hour waits at all costs at the cc. I can stand the fumes for 10mins max 
Now as glad as i was for the shelving of  the translink review....bt need to get thier act together now and reduce duplication on the inner busway  
You know things are bad when you see high frequency near empty buses on the outbound at peak.

[Set in train]

I avoid half hour waits at all costs at the cc. I can stand the fumes for 10mins max 
Now as glad as i was for the shelving of  the translink review....bt need to get thier act together now and reduce duplication on the inner busway  
You know things are bad when you see high frequency near empty buses on the outbound at peak.

You've seen their review? You know then that they are not doing much at all to reduce duplication.

[HappyTrainGuy]

You've seen their review? You know then that they are not doing much at all to reduce duplication.

Now that's not true. They got rid of the 310 duplicating the 315 Toombul-City by sending it via the Airport Link to duplicate the Gympie Road/Northern Busway corridor... but they forgot the 306 and 322 

[Set in train]

Now that's not true. They got rid of the 310 duplicating the 315 Toombul-City by sending it via the Airport Link to duplicate the Gympie Road/Northern Busway corridor... but they forgot the 306 and 322 

It's a joke. Ratepayers will shrug their shoulders, "oh well, another increased bill to pay" when it shouldn't be that way at all.

The more I thought about the TL review of BT routes, the more I cast aside worry about the local BUZ being chopped. It's of no interest to me as I drive < 2km through the suburb to the busway and there are faster buses there.

If BT is ever sold off, then the TL review will come in handy.

A huge problem of the protectionism that exists for BT is that of a party aligned council. If there were more independent thinking councillors that weren't either looking to protect their fatcat mates or the unions in the BT staff, there could have been a push long ago to get rid of BT.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Twas a joke too about how poor their review was

[#Metro]

It's a joke. Ratepayers will shrug their shoulders, "oh well, another increased bill to pay" when it shouldn't be that way at all.

The more I thought about the TL review of BT routes, the more I cast aside worry about the local BUZ being chopped. It's of no interest to me as I drive < 2km through the suburb to the busway and there are faster buses there.

If BT is ever sold off, then the TL review will come in handy.

A huge problem of the protectionism that exists for BT is that of a party aligned council. If there were more independent thinking councillors that weren't either looking to protect their fatcat mates or the unions in the BT staff, there could have been a push long ago to get rid of BT.

I think that it is the fact that it is council owned and the incentives are all misaligned. If you compare to other public systems such as in Toronto or where the council has full control (not necessarily ownership or operation but planning such as in Auckland,NZ) over all modes, you don't get this behaviour. It would make no sense for Toronto to run buses vs trains as that would be a huge waste of resources. You can't put QR in BT hands because services extend across multiple boundaries. Auckland Council doesn't do this. Private companies under the planning direction of TL don't do this.

[techblitz]

You've seen their review? You know then that they are not doing much at all to reduce duplication.

Now that's not true. They got rid of the 310 duplicating the 315 Toombul-City by sending it via the Airport Link to duplicate the Gympie Road/Northern Busway corridor... but they forgot the 306 and 322 

Funny you should mention the 310. As decent a move as it is (providing a handy connection from Toombul-rbwh) How many people will actually do the walk to the Toombul stop for this connection?. Would better off just pulling into Toombul bus station and adding the extra 5 mins or so at peak to get more patronage for this connection. Now being a direct hospital bound service...it suddenly makes it attractive to a lot of elderly passengers from Toombul.
The 220 pass through of cannon hill doesn't seem to phase commuters (even though it adds on minimum 5 mins at peak getting back out)
Both being hourly services they end up being fairly similar.
I honestly think the 310 will struggle for boarding patronage between Toombul-rbwh due to the stop location.This service also gets decent boardings at clayfield college.But it will be covered with other routes.

[James]

It's a joke. Ratepayers will shrug their shoulders, "oh well, another increased bill to pay" when it shouldn't be that way at all.

The more I thought about the TL review of BT routes, the more I cast aside worry about the local BUZ being chopped. It's of no interest to me as I drive < 2km through the suburb to the busway and there are faster buses there.

If BT is ever sold off, then the TL review will come in handy.

A huge problem of the protectionism that exists for BT is that of a party aligned council. If there were more independent thinking councillors that weren't either looking to protect their fatcat mates or the unions in the BT staff, there could have been a push long ago to get rid of BT.

I, for one, don't have sympathy for the rate payers of Brisbane. They had the opportunity to change their bus network, 92% of feedback to TransLink in the bus review was Brisbane ratepayers having a whine about how they enjoy their hourly CBD-bound air parcel. If the people of Inala want a BUZ standard bus travelling from their doorstep to the CBD, they can have a rate rise.

I think this poster at a 454 stop takes the cake. It just shows the pure ignorance of some rate payers. Save our 454! We don't want a frequent route that will take 2 minutes longer in the off-peak on weekdays! We want peak hour rockets to Roma Street, Elizabeth Street, Creek Street and Parliament!

[HappyTrainGuy]

333, 335 bumper to bumper with 340 at the lights at Hamilton Road. 330, 370 following each other Chermside-airport link. Waste waste waste!

[HappyTrainGuy]

330, 333, 340 running bumper to bumper at the RBWH.

[#Metro]

Photos?

[techblitz]

It's a joke. Ratepayers will shrug their shoulders, "oh well, another increased bill to pay" when it shouldn't be that way at all.

The more I thought about the TL review of BT routes, the more I cast aside worry about the local BUZ being chopped. It's of no interest to me as I drive < 2km through the suburb to the busway and there are faster buses there.

If BT is ever sold off, then the TL review will come in handy.

A huge problem of the protectionism that exists for BT is that of a party aligned council. If there were more independent thinking councillors that weren't either looking to protect their fatcat mates or the unions in the BT staff, there could have been a push long ago to get rid of BT.

I, for one, don't have sympathy for the rate payers of Brisbane. They had the opportunity to change their bus network, 92% of feedback to TransLink in the bus review was Brisbane ratepayers having a whine about how they enjoy their hourly CBD-bound air parcel. If the people of Inala want a BUZ standard bus travelling from their doorstep to the CBD, they can have a rate rise.

I think this poster at a 454 stop takes the cake. It just shows the pure ignorance of some rate payers. Save our 454! We don't want a frequent route that will take 2 minutes longer in the off-peak on weekdays! We want peak hour rockets to Roma Street, Elizabeth Street, Creek Street and Parliament!

yeah the 92 percent stat is quite comical in multiple respects....the fact that so many people don't like/refuse change......and also the fact that so many respondents thought the translink proposals were rubbish.

[#Metro]

I, for one, don't have sympathy for the rate payers of Brisbane. They had the opportunity to change their bus network, 92% of feedback to TransLink in the bus review was Brisbane ratepayers having a whine about how they enjoy their hourly CBD-bound air parcel. If the people of Inala want a BUZ standard bus travelling from their doorstep to the CBD, they can have a rate rise.

I think this poster at a 454 stop takes the cake. It just shows the pure ignorance of some rate payers. Save our 454! We don't want a frequent route that will take 2 minutes longer in the off-peak on weekdays! We want peak hour rockets to Roma Street, Elizabeth Street, Creek Street and Parliament!

We have an almost laboratory style experiment set up between Brisbane and Auckland. Very similar cities, same bus review, same recommendations. Many people do not realise that $400 worth of subsidies are being paid by them via BCC rates for air transport, many don't understand that connections actually enhance a network once it gets to a certain size and frequency is invisible. And of course FULL advantage of this will be taken by politicians.

It is a good thing Scott Emerson finally put his foot down and capped rises at 4%. For too long TransLink has been used as an ATM to rip ever increasing amounts from. The poor thing is that TransLink appears to have been deliberately restrained or handicapped in communicating changes and the rationale for that.

They had the opportunity to change their bus network, 92% of feedback to TransLink in the bus review was Brisbane ratepayers having a whine about how they enjoy their hourly CBD-bound air parcel. If the people of Inala want a BUZ standard bus travelling from their doorstep to the CBD, they can have a rate rise.

92% doesn't mean 92% of all people in Brisbane. The sample is biased towards those who would lose against the more dispersed benefit across the whole city from a better network. And this effect is confirmed with the Milton Dick and Annastacia P. petition signed at Inala that had 700 signatures for a proposal that actually left buses slower, less mobility and to save a bus route that had been made redundant by the construction of a train line that the petition authors actually directed.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Sorry no photos this time as I was pre occupied when getting off at the RBWH.

[James]

We have an almost laboratory style experiment set up between Brisbane and Auckland. Very similar cities, same bus review, same recommendations. Many people do not realise that $400 worth of subsidies are being paid by them via BCC rates for air transport, many don't understand that connections actually enhance a network once it gets to a certain size and frequency is invisible. And of course FULL advantage of this will be taken by politicians.

It is a good thing Scott Emerson finally put his foot down and capped rises at 4%. For too long TransLink has been used as an ATM to rip ever increasing amounts from. The poor thing is that TransLink appears to have been deliberately restrained or handicapped in communicating changes and the rationale for that.

92% doesn't mean 92% of all people in Brisbane. The sample is biased towards those who would lose against the more dispersed benefit across the whole city from a better network. And this effect is confirmed with the Milton Dick and Annastacia P. petition signed at Inala that had 700 signatures for a proposal that actually left buses slower, less mobility and to save a bus route that had been made redundant by the construction of a train line that the petition authors actually directed.

From what I saw, people who had genuine things to lose (444, 411, 120, GCL in Sherwood) were the first ones to start complaining. Following that, the bus review got more notoriety, causing people who had less to lose (100, 212, 172, 340) to start having larger hissy fits. Eventually bitching about the bus review became a fashion statement, and users of buses like the 180, 454 and 196 started complaining too. Eventually the whole thing turned into a farce. Of course, some of these efforts were assisted by local politicians acting in their own self-interest under the guise of 'disabled residents' (Annastacia P., Kevin Rudd), and some plain stupid people like Milton Dick and Nicole Johnson.

The thing became politically toxic and nobody understood what the hell was going on. If the review was done again, I would:
1. Keep the same/similar route numbers. "Cut" comes off far worse than "change" or "alteration". The 172 could have kept its numbering and just changed routes. Same with most of the buses in the western suburbs, just say the bus is going to UQ instead of the City.
2. Proposed secondary route frequencies. Even if it took another month to get the review out from there, it would give TransLink something to fall back on - most people were going to be using secondary routes, and naturally if the secondary route terminating at a suburban hub has the same frequency as the existing bus going direct to the CBD, it is very difficult to argue for the review. And that was a lot of the problem.
3. Communication - Communicate to people about interchange. Thanks to a general crappy network, there is an attitude in Brisbane that connections never work. It needs to be explained that this new connective network would work through timed connections like we see with some train-bus connections on the Gold Coast. People on the Coast don't have this issue so much as they experience it regularly. In cases where an unpopular connection is being made (think 444 and 100 replacements), theoretical trip times and example timetables needed to be produced to show people were not losing anything.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Another issue was that BT/BCC didn't want to play ball regarding the review. They were the only operator that didn't inject input regarding route design. When there are changes outside the BCC area usually the local councils like to help out by having information sessions - shops, libraries, info kiosks (Redcliffe, Caboolture, Strathpine etc), knowing what the changes are in their local areas and addressing the community with the help of Translink along with promotion and information available from them and from translink. We saw some of that from BCC members but instead of them knowing what those changes were they just had no idea and kept trying to kick up a stink and fear over a couple routes. Another problem is that BT/BCC run routes that aren't in their local area eg the North West Suburbs which were on plan for a frequency boost and a better network.

[techblitz]

We have an almost laboratory style experiment set up between Brisbane and Auckland. Very similar cities, same bus review, same recommendations. Many people do not realise that $400 worth of subsidies are being paid by them via BCC rates for air transport, many don't understand that connections actually enhance a network once it gets to a certain size and frequency is invisible. And of course FULL advantage of this will be taken by politicians.

It is a good thing Scott Emerson finally put his foot down and capped rises at 4%. For too long TransLink has been used as an ATM to rip ever increasing amounts from. The poor thing is that TransLink appears to have been deliberately restrained or handicapped in communicating changes and the rationale for that.

92% doesn't mean 92% of all people in Brisbane. The sample is biased towards those who would lose against the more dispersed benefit across the whole city from a better network. And this effect is confirmed with the Milton Dick and Annastacia P. petition signed at Inala that had 700 signatures for a proposal that actually left buses slower, less mobility and to save a bus route that had been made redundant by the construction of a train line that the petition authors actually directed.

From what I saw, people who had genuine things to lose (444, 411, 120, GCL in Sherwood) were the first ones to start complaining. Following that, the bus review got more notoriety, causing people who had less to lose (100, 212, 172, 340) to start having larger hissy fits. Eventually bitching about the bus review became a fashion statement, and users of buses like the 180, 454 and 196 started complaining too. Eventually the whole thing turned into a farce. Of course, some of these efforts were assisted by local politicians acting in their own self-interest under the guise of 'disabled residents' (Annastacia P., Kevin Rudd), and some plain stupid people like Milton Dick and Nicole Johnson.

The thing became politically toxic and nobody understood what the hell was going on. If the review was done again, I would:
1. Keep the same/similar route numbers. "Cut" comes off far worse than "change" or "alteration". The 172 could have kept its numbering and just changed routes. Same with most of the buses in the western suburbs, just say the bus is going to UQ instead of the City.
2. Proposed secondary route frequencies. Even if it took another month to get the review out from there, it would give TransLink something to fall back on - most people were going to be using secondary routes, and naturally if the secondary route terminating at a suburban hub has the same frequency as the existing bus going direct to the CBD, it is very difficult to argue for the review. And that was a lot of the problem.
3. Communication - Communicate to people about interchange. Thanks to a general crappy network, there is an attitude in Brisbane that connections never work. It needs to be explained that this new connective network would work through timed connections like we see with some train-bus connections on the Gold Coast. People on the Coast don't have this issue so much as they experience it regularly. In cases where an unpopular connection is being made (think 444 and 100 replacements), theoretical trip times and example timetables needed to be produced to show people were not losing anything.

+1

TL/BT need to get some stats on how many passengers connect busroute-busroute in the same direction.
From my general overview (using mater hill a lot) people don't mind switching services if its the same direction with minimal stuffing around.
The gabba really needs to be put up as a testing ground NOW. There are opportunities to terminate some garden city depot bus routes and send them back to the depot via the busway. Eg:  Terminate 174/175 @ gabba and ferry pax into a 340/66/29 etc etc.

Even last week I saw 8 or so pax connect from the 113 - 120 at Ekibin. I definitely see this as a positive. Passengers connecting from a low patronage route into a high patronage route out of the inner CBD!

More studies into passenger preferences and behaviours needed plz!

[Golliwog]

I was on a Stafford bound 375 leaving the CBD around 6pm Friday night. Maybe 1/3 seats taken? Most people got off (bar maybe half a dozen) along the Gympie Rd corridor. Granted, a large number of those were at non-BUZ stops, but I still see it as needless duplication.

[#Metro]

Took a ride on 369. 375 immediately in front vacuuming up all the passengers. 

[HappyTrainGuy]

Took a ride on 369. 375 immediately in front vacuuming up all the passengers. 

The 370/379 evens that out by running before it through the valley/albion

Its duplication like this that needs to be removed. The busway entrance and exit lights do not help this cause.

[James]

I went for a trip around the suburbs yesterday - caught the 379 (to Ashgrove), WasteGlider to Wooloongabba, the 172 to Garden City and then the 161 to the city (via the Wishart Lookout Loop).

The 161 actually gets some very good patronage past Garden City in the peak direction. I caught the 3:30pm service leaving Queen Street yesterday, and the bus turned up at Upper Mount Gravatt busway with only around 5-6 people on board. The bus filled up with - surprise surprise - lots of people transferring from other services. (All lies, according to Lord Mayor Quirk). Most seats were filled when we left the busway, with half of the bus getting out at the Brisbane Holiday Village (I think this is where most of the patronage comes from on this route). On the city-bound trip though, it was no surprise that I was the only passenger who was doing the through trip. About four passengers got on at Upper Mount Gravatt, but there's no real point in counting that given none of them were waiting for the 161 exclusively.

172 had light loads as well. It was more like a roller coaster ride the way it twists and turns, half the excitement was guessing which street we're going to turn down next. The route is also slow especially on the inner section - it took us about 15 minutes just to get to Greenslopes Hospital from Wooloongabba. The bus jam (at 2:30pm) at Mater Hill and Cultural Centre didn't help either. The driver even told one passenger at Greenslopes to wait for the 175 because it was quicker. The bus got decently loaded by school kids from Cavendish Road State High, but aside from the school kids there were no more than seven passengers on board at any one time.

Maroon Glider carries good patronage between Ashgrove and Cultural Centre. Once past about Cultural Centre, the service was carrying air. I was only one of a few people on board, and this was at Wooloongabba. 379 was the only route which really had half-decent patronage.

I think one thing that stuck in my mind was seeing three 150s all come within a minute of each other, none of which were going out with standees. Maybe it was because a lot of schools seemed to finish early today/some students were already off school.