Logan City CFN

[achiruel]

There's a lot of talk about CFN for Brisbane, I'd like to see one for Logan City as well.  Perhaps similar hours/frequency could not be justified but I'd like to see at least 15 minutes 6am-9pm Mon-Sat, 8am-7pm Sun, with 30 minutes 4:30-6am & 9pm-11pm Mon-Thu, with late night services going until 1am Fri/Sat.  Then 30 minutes 6am-8am and 7pm-10pm Sun/PH.

Routes to be in CFN:

545 - Garden City to Browns Plains via Logan Central & Marsden
550 - Springwood to Browns Plains via Logan Central & Marsden
554 - Garden City to Logan Central via Kuraby Station & Springwood
555 - Busway Spine
560 - Browns Plains to Hypderdome.

[somebody]

Get rid of the variation in the 555 - either it always takes the 572 route or it never does.

I think there is enough demand in Logan to extend the 88 there along the daytime 555 route.

[colinw]

There's a lot of talk about CFN for Brisbane, I'd like to see one for Logan City as well.  Perhaps similar hours/frequency could not be justified but I'd like to see at least 15 minutes 6am-9pm Mon-Sat, 8am-7pm Sun, with 30 minutes 4:30-6am & 9pm-11pm Mon-Thu, with late night services going until 1am Fri/Sat.  Then 30 minutes 6am-8am and 7pm-10pm Sun/PH.

Routes to be in CFN:

545 - Garden City to Browns Plains via Logan Central & Marsden
550 - Springwood to Browns Plains via Logan Central & Marsden
554 - Garden City to Logan Central via Kuraby Station & Springwood
555 - Busway Spine
560 - Browns Plains to Hypderdome.

554 is my local bus route, and while an extension of frequency and operating hours would be welcome, it should be considered that this route is far from ideal.  To see what I mean, have a look at the timetable.

The 554 is effectively 3 routes that have been shoe-horned into one horribly circuitous and delay prone bus route.  These 3 routes are
  - Garden city to Kuraby, then
  - double back from Kuraby to Springwood Bus station
  - then travel from Springwood bus station to Logan Central Plaza, passing within 1km of Kuraby again

The Kuraby part of the route is quite well used, as is Springwood to Logan Central Plaza. Kuraby to Springwood seems only lightly used, and in fact I have often been the only passenger when using it.

For through travel from either Springwood or Logan Central to Garden city the route is useless, because you would always use a 555 or similar from Springwood rather than taking a scenic tour of Underwood & Kuraby.

Likewise, for Logan Central to Kuraby it is useless, as the train does that trip in under 5 minutes.

Therefore, I contend that the 554 should NOT be part of the CFN unless the route gets "steam ironed" into something more direct & useful.

If anything, Kuraby should not be part of the Clark's Logan City 554 route at all, and Kuraby should have a BT route that terminates at the station.

[ClintonL94]

Get rid of the variation in the 555 - either it always takes the 572 route or it never does.

How do you mean? The only time a 555 has a 572 route included in the route is the N555 on weekends.

[somebody]

From 7:55pm@Loganholme, the 555 terminates at Springwood and continues as a 572 to Loganholme.  The journey planner still doesn't handle this properly.

[SurfRail]

CFN should be:

- 545
- 550
- 555 (via the M1 full time)
- 560
- 572

Look at upgrading others if/when necessary.  Perhaps the 553.

Focus should be on scaling back the number of direct peak hour routes and getting people fed into the 555, which should be the only route running to the city in peak (and run it exclusively with high-capacity buses).

[somebody]

Focus should be on scaling back the number of direct peak hour routes and getting people fed into the 555, which should be the only route running to the city in peak (and run it exclusively with high-capacity buses).

Say what?

I see a reduction in PT use from this plan.

[STB]

Focus should be on scaling back the number of direct peak hour routes and getting people fed into the 555, which should be the only route running to the city in peak (and run it exclusively with high-capacity buses).

Say what?

I see a reduction in PT use from this plan.

Agreed with Simon.   SurfRail, have you seen how full those peak hour services get, let alone the 555?

[#Metro]

Agreed with Simon.   SurfRail, have you seen how full those peak hour services get, let alone the 555?

I'd like to see more 555 services in peak, larger superbuses and I'm sure that there could be some scope for scale-back of some direct services if they don't carry heaps of people on them. You could have a 555 paired with a peak load rocket, for instance.

There are just too many bus routes, far too many, even I, seasoned RAILBOT fanatic of many years, don't even know where 80% of them go!

[somebody]

Outside of the BT area, I don't know where most of them go.  But why is that important?  I'm not going to Logan.

[STB]

Agreed with Simon.   SurfRail, have you seen how full those peak hour services get, let alone the 555?

I'd like to see more 555 services in peak, larger superbuses and I'm sure that there could be some scope for scale-back of some direct services if they don't carry heaps of people on them. You could have a 555 paired with a peak load rocket, for instance.

There are just too many bus routes, far too many, even I, seasoned RAILBOT fanatic of many years, don't even know where 80% of them go!

I'm not sure why that really matters, as the main market is the commuters who live out where those routes start from and travel through.  If I was going to live out there, I'd research the public transport nearby before moving, and I would get used to catching the closest service, and knowing the route number, to the city to get to/from work as any reasonable person would.

The only time I would head out there (assuming I didn't know the routes), is if I was heading to see a friend, but even then, I would ask said friend about which bus to catch and at what time, or I'd ring TransLink or get onto the TL website to find out.  And unlike the BT area where there is duplication galore targeting different sections of the community, in Logan there's generally only one peak hour route per sub region.  Eg: 571 for Cornubia.

[ClintonL94]

Agreed with Simon.   SurfRail, have you seen how full those peak hour services get, let alone the 555?

There are just too many bus routes, far too many, even I, seasoned RAILBOT fanatic of many years, don't even know where 80% of them go!

I can tell you where all the Logan city bus routes go seeing as I've been on all of them many times except 576/578.

I'd like to see more of the routes with longer hours. Some routes I use to get to work start at 6/7am and finish before 7pm. Most of the routes are finished by 7pm and IMO that is too early. I don't care about high frequency on those routes after 7pm all I care about is providing myself along with many others with later services so that I can get home without a taxi etc.

Routes like 555 sure that is expected to have high frequency because it's a very popular route.

[SurfRail]

Focus should be on scaling back the number of direct peak hour routes and getting people fed into the 555, which should be the only route running to the city in peak (and run it exclusively with high-capacity buses).

Say what?

I see a reduction in PT use from this plan.

Agreed with Simon.   SurfRail, have you seen how full those peak hour services get, let alone the 555?

Yes, and I have consequently seen how badly Stop 82 performs when 4 buses going to separate destinations show up at once.  The 555 goes the same way each time - to 2 key regional interchanges which feed every part of Logan.  Not every Logan route can accommodate high-capacity buses, so why not just buy more artics/deckers/whatever and run 555s with them?

[SurfRail]

Outside of the BT area, I don't know where most of them go.  But why is that important?  I'm not going to Logan.

I can reliably say where every single route in SEQ goes without looking. 

Practice makes perfect!

[#Metro]

I'm not sure why that really matters, as the main market is the commuters who live out where those routes start from and travel through.  If I was going to live out there, I'd research the public transport nearby before moving, and I would get used to catching the closest service, and knowing the route number, to the city to get to/from work as any reasonable person would

That might suit you, but the system is supposed to be built for the whole populace, who are unlikely to think, act and do as you do.
The system should be built to be a) intuitive and b) simple, and c) useful all day. Just focusing on getting to work - going home isn't going to make people drop their cars. Each extra step a prospective PT passenger has to be put though is another barrier. Many people stay away from the 500 series of buses because even though these buses might stop on the busway or BCC area, they just have no idea where they stop or go.

[ClintonL94]

Focus should be on scaling back the number of direct peak hour routes and getting people fed into the 555, which should be the only route running to the city in peak (and run it exclusively with high-capacity buses).

Say what?

I see a reduction in PT use from this plan.

Agreed with Simon.   SurfRail, have you seen how full those peak hour services get, let alone the 555?

Not every Logan route can accommodate high-capacity buses, so why not just buy more artics/deckers/whatever and run 555s with them?

Logan City Bus depot is basically full capacity, slowly disposing the old coaches. No room to expand depot.

[david]

Outside of the BT area, I don't know where most of them go.  But why is that important?  I'm not going to Logan.

I can reliably say where every single route in SEQ goes without looking. 

Practice makes perfect!

Perhaps Translink should hire you as their human journey planner 

[ClintonL94]

Outside of the BT area, I don't know where most of them go.  But why is that important?  I'm not going to Logan.

I can reliably say where every single route in SEQ goes without looking. 

Practice makes perfect!

Perhaps Translink should hire you as their human journey planner 

With my knowledge of quite a few bus routes and all train routes, I help confused passengers every day!

Here's how I helped tonight at Loganholme Bus Station:

A few passengers(around 7:20pm) wanted to go to Kingston but they were a bit annoyed as the last 552 was at 7pm and as I have said before that's too early for last service. So I advised them to get the 7.40pm 553 to Beenleigh then get the next all stations train to Kingston.

Another couple of passengers wanted to get to Forest Lake, they asked a bus driver and he had no idea told them to call Translink. I said to get a 572/555 to Cultural Centre and then get route 100 to Forest Lake..

[STB]

Outside of the BT area, I don't know where most of them go.  But why is that important?  I'm not going to Logan.

I can reliably say where every single route in SEQ goes without looking. 

Practice makes perfect!

Perhaps Translink should hire you as their human journey planner 

With my knowledge of quite a few bus routes and all train routes, I help confused passengers every day!

Here's how I helped tonight at Loganholme Bus Station:

A few passengers(around 7:20pm) wanted to go to Kingston but they were a bit annoyed as the last 552 was at 7pm and as I have said before that's too early for last service. So I advised them to get the 7.40pm 553 to Beenleigh then get the next all stations train to Kingston.

Another couple of passengers wanted to get to Forest Lake, they asked a bus driver and he had no idea told them to call Translink. I said to get a 572/555 to Cultural Centre and then get route 100 to Forest Lake..

Now I know who took my old job!

[#Metro]

Perhaps Translink should hire you as their human journey planner 

1900 RAILBOT

The Rival Call Centre and Journey Planner for Transport in SE Queensland

[somebody]

Yes, and I have consequently seen how badly Stop 82 performs when 4 buses going to separate destinations show up at once.  The 555 goes the same way each time - to 2 key regional interchanges which feed every part of Logan.  Not every Logan route can accommodate high-capacity buses, so why not just buy more artics/deckers/whatever and run 555s with them?

Issues at stop 82 can be solved in other ways.  Starting with removing BT services from 83 for 81 and/or the stop outside Embassy Hotel (now 84), and closing stop 83 for one larger stop.

[achiruel]

Perhaps Translink should hire you as their human journey planner 

I often help lost people also.  Especially my wife, who would rather call me than use JP on her phone, because she says JP gives her stupid results, like I remember once it told her to get from West End to South Brisbane by taking a 196 to Fairfield and catching a train.

[#Metro]

I often help lost people also.  Especially my wife, who would rather call me than use JP on her phone, because she says JP gives her stupid results, like I remember once it told her to get from West End to South Brisbane by taking a 196 to Fairfield and catching a train.

And this is EXACTLY the problem with Journey planners - they give you the EXACT solution, the fastest one, but don't give you the most REPRODUCIBLE journey. A person would think "196,199" because these have a) highest frequency, and b) greatest span. Journey planner isn't programmed to think like this!!

[somebody]

I'd add to my previous comments that I think the most appropriate stop for the Logan routes is probably adjacent to the 111.  There seems to be a bit of a problem with that one though - the stop is used by my favourite route.

[achiruel]

I've been trying to make something that looks vaguely like a CFN for Logan City, joining together the activity centres of Springwood, Logan Central, Browns Plains, Hyperdome & Beenleigh.  However I've noticed it's difficult for a few reasons:

• The most direct routes between activity centres are often along motorways or semi-rural roads that would generate very little passenger traffic
• Terrible urban planning in some areas makes it difficult to have a reasonably straight route through them
• Lack of decent bus/rail interchanges.  e.g. Edens Landing, the one at Kingston turns enough corners to induce motion sickness
• Most of the residential area is low to very low density, making it difficult to find routes that would actually generate decent # of pax

Anyway, this is what I came up with.

http://goo.gl/maps/8Myhl

[#Metro]

The most direct routes between activity centres are often along motorways or semi-rural roads that would generate very little passenger traffic
Terrible urban planning in some areas makes it difficult to have a reasonably straight route through them
Lack of decent bus/rail interchanges.  e.g. Edens Landing, the one at Kingston turns enough corners to induce motion sickness
Most of the residential area is low to very low density, making it difficult to find routes that would actually generate decent # of pax

One of the things you quickly begin to appreciate when you do a redraw is the need for some coverage routes. Without coverage routes, large areas have nothing!!
In a place like Logan, I would take the opposite approach - due to the low frequency and low density, no-transfer (within the area) services should be looked at, connecting to Browns Plains and Springwood as hubs. I would suggest more reliance on peak hour only services / rockets also.

[colinw]

Looks like a decent first go, although as TT says some feeder/coverage routes are needed.

I think there really needs to be something from Browns Plains to Woodridge or Springwood that travels along Wembley Road.  Yes, it is semi-rural but it is direct & fast, you pick up Woodridge High School, and the big open bit near the Logan Mwy is about to vanish under industrial development (e.g. Stoddart Manufacturing is moving there from Acacia Ridge).

You also seem to be light on in the Rochedale South (Underwood Road) area.

Far from an easy task!

[Gazza]

My thoughts.

-Could the the light blue and Black routes be switched at 3rd Ave/Browns plain intersection?
The blue route would then become an major east west line along Browns Plains rd.
Also, the blue route IMO should go along Chambers flat rd past Marsden Park Shopping center, and serve all that. Rather than avoiding it with that slower dogleg along Muchow Rd.

[SurfRail]

The brown one should stretch east a little more to feed into Kingston station.

The light blue one should probably do what the 560 does now in the Loganlea/Meadowbrook stretch to ensure you have a decent route that covers the hospital, the TAFE and Griffith Uni.

I'm also not sure the routes on the eastern side of the M1 are much of an improvement over the present design.

I personally think most of the Logan design is pretty decent, what it lacks is frequency.

[nathandavid88]

The brown one should stretch east a little more to feed into Kingston station.

The light blue one should probably do what the 560 does now in the Loganlea/Meadowbrook stretch to ensure you have a decent route that covers the hospital, the TAFE and Griffith Uni.

I'm also not sure the routes on the eastern side of the M1 are much of an improvement over the present design.

I personally think most of the Logan design is pretty decent, what it lacks is frequency.

I agree with SurfRail's changes. I'm not sold that these changes are much better than the current situation, and might possibly be a backwards step in some areas. The two main things that the Logan Network needs more than anything else is improved frequency, and later running services on a quite a few of the suburban routes.

I would also add other priorities being possibly eliminating some of the suburbs to city peak routes that go via large interchanges (particularly the 571, 573, 574, 577, 579 and maybe the 566 if extra peak rail capacity can be added) that go via large interchanges and replace them with higher frequency local feeders (570, 572, 574, 576, 578 and 565 respectively) and higher frequency 'to city' services (all day 555, peak 569 and 581).

I'd also like to see improved links between the major centres in Logan.  These major centres I consider to be Loganholme, Springwood, Logan Central, Loganlea, Browns Plains and Beenleigh. Springwood – Loganholme, Loganholme – Loganlea and Springwood – Logan Central are fine at 10-15 mins apiece on bus, Beenleigh – Loganlea or Woodridge is fine, serviced by minimum 2tph (4tph for Beenleigh – Loganlea outside of peak). Loganholme – Logan Central is a bit worse because all available services go all over the countryside, taking half an hour or more. While I appreciate that this increases the catchment, I'd love to see if a more direct link between Loganholme and Logan Central was feasible. Something that goes along Nujooloo road/highway service road, then straight along Paradise Road (maybe stopping via IKEA), turns left onto Kingston Road, then onto Wembley Road all the way along to the Council Chambers. Maybe even back track to the Station and continue it up North Road, and to Springwood station via Compton Road if there's demand for it (although the 550 is a pretty decent link already, so maybe not).

Likewise, both Loganholme – Browns Plains and Springwood – Browns Plains take an eternity (45 mins at least) because each services the suburbs between (and don't get me started on the PRT 545 service...I have never seen such a consistantly late running service!). While I wouldn't recommend removing either the 550 or 560, both of which are pretty well used, like with the Loganholme to Woodridge route, maybe some sort of service that runs solely along the main roads would be beneficial (and isn't always late like the 545). It should not take longer to get to Browns Plains than it does to get to Brisbane IMO. Maybe break the 550 and 560 into two separate services – Loganholme or Springwood to Browns Plains direct, and then Woodridge to Browns Plains via Marsden (550 route) or Loganlea to Browns Plains via Crestmead (560 route) for the suburbs? Just a thought... (Disclaimer– I'm a bit biased on this one as I live near Loganholme and work out near Browns Plains!)

But worst of all is trying to get from Loganholme to Beenleigh! There are 4 services an hour (excluding the peak 566), none of which are evenly spaced and which change for weekends (a pet peeve of mine!). One takes 10 mins, one takes 20 mins, one takes 30 mins and one over 40 mins. Either the 565 (10 mins) or 553 (20 mins), or both, should be boosted to half hourly. Beenleigh is literally 10 mins down the highway, there's no need for the services to be so terrible, especially as there are a lot of services in Beenleigh that Loganholme residents needs to access (Centrelink, the Courthouse, Government departments like Main Roads, no to mention the abundance of sports clubs/facilities and cultural activities in Beenleigh.

Well, that's my 2c worth!  [/rant]