Go card fare structure - clean slate, what would you do?

[ozbob]

Using a better fare structure to drive patronage increases is the way forward IMHO.  Obviously costs and other aspects, frequency, network form and so forth all need to be sorted as well.  But there is a huge problem, and it is evidenced by TransLink's own data - public is turning away because of affordability.  To ignore that is not going to help anyone.  9 journey cap is good for some, but not all.

Lets cut to the chase DWB,  the free travel after x journeys is in its present form is an absolute rort ... and in time will be very costly.  It will lead to higher fares ...

The money going west would have been better spent in something like a flagfall adjustment, and better off peak discounts.  That would have helped every user and been a better patronage driver.  LNP just continued on the same mediocre fare path put in place by ALP. 

From OP  this is the fare structure I would like to see.

1. Pull back the base (flag-fall) by a $1.50, all zones.  So a one zone go card fare (peak adult) = $1.55. Zone 23 = $17.95

2. Off peak discount 30%.  Off peak zone one adult $1.09

3. Change 2am touch on to 7am touch off.

4. 50% fare reduction after 8 journeys per week - no free travel.

5. Increase number of transfers allowed in journey from 3 to 4.  Keep 6 hour limit, but change last transfer time from 3.30 hour to 4hours.

6. Planned fare increases of 7.5% for next two years frozen.

[somebody]

The 50% FUD still was a loophole but this was widened by the increase to 100% FUD.  I wonder how significant a change it would be to only apply the FUD to the cheapest journeys of the week?  Perhaps a matter of recalling all go cards and issuing new ones?  Does the card actually know the trips taken in the past week?

[ozbob]

Anything is generally a loophole if you think about it long enough. The 50% FUD was at least still pulling in revenue in a more balanced way.  The original 10 journey cap came right of the blue, it was an ALP brain snap of sorts.  There was no mention of such a move at either the go card reference group, the PTAG or in any discussions I had with the authorities - Ministerial or TransLink.

Obviously the seed was sown with the daily two journey cap for pensioners (that two journey cap itself came right of the blue and was nothing like what the go card reference group was putting forward).

[achiruel]

Rewards them for being virtually no impost on the transport system.

The same logic applies to the Spring Hill Loop and the CityHopper, yet we still have them.

CityHopper is funded by BCC, not TransLink.  I don't care what BCC does with their money as I don't live their, but I think TL has better things to spend their cash on.

I'm not sure I'm in favour of Spring Hill Loop being free either, I believe it encourages people to dirve to near the CBD and park and cheap metered on-street parking, rather than leaving their cars at home.  City Loop I can live with because it doesn't really have this disadvantage.

[SurfRail]

Rewards them for being virtually no impost on the transport system.

The same logic applies to the Spring Hill Loop and the CityHopper, yet we still have them.

CityHopper is funded by BCC, not TransLink.  I don't care what BCC does with their money as I don't live their, but I think TL has better things to spend their cash on.

I'm not sure I'm in favour of Spring Hill Loop being free either, I believe it encourages people to dirve to near the CBD and park and cheap metered on-street parking, rather than leaving their cars at home.  City Loop I can live with because it doesn't really have this disadvantage.

I doubt the Spring Hill Loop attracts any park'n'ride.  The thing is full with locals.

[ozbob]

The journey cap could be made tighter to rorting by a few changes.

This may be come necessary as the planned fare increases (7.5%) will mean folks will try harder to deter impacts.

First thing is to increase the transfer limit in the 6 hour journey length.  The number of people who actually do more than 3 (the present transfer limit) would be minute.  So moving that to say 8 would make it a lot more difficult to do the Monday zone out ... (9 paid journey achieved by serial bus transfers).

The next thing they need to think through is the restriction on transfer to same or adjoining zone.  This makes it easy for a user to use a second go card to reach a two journey cap, those who can access this cap are becoming very adept at doing zoners.   

If they did these changes it would help reduce fare box leakage now but particularly in the future as further price rises impact.

The 9 journey cap being presented as a 'discounted weekly' is not really correct is it?  What it is, is an open invitation to get an unlimited (zone 23) weekly for little relative cost?  The paper weeklies were zone limited depending on your zones purchased. 

[somebody]

I did it just this week.  Had done 3 trips within zone 1 on a journey and needed to do 1 more to get home, but went to Mater Hill and got Mater Hill-home a 1 zone journey also.  Cost: $2.44 + $2.44.  Saved: $2.87 + $3.05 (the trip which was made free).  Net saving: 43c + 61c = $1.04

[techblitz]

Lets just wait till hard figures are released on how many passengers are actually rorting the system.I agree that as fares increase there will be more attempts to rort the system but once again...it comes down to the percentage of people rorting it...if translink etc think its too high then they will do something about it.We all know that when anna bligh decalared `free transport` for certain days last year,that this was extremely popular and even resulted in severe overcrowding on certain bus routes. So getting rid of the free trip incentives would be a backward step imo.If they did get rid of free travel incentives,then there better be something damn good that makes up for it eg: price freezes.
I would also like to see some hard stats comparing a frequent/excessive traveller,a 9-5m-f traveller,and the occasional traveller and matching up thier weekly costs.
Get these stats down on paper for all to see,then we can get a general idea on how well balanced the pricing structure is,and how beneficial it is to all types of travellers.

[achiruel]

I agree with Techblitz.  If only 20 people are seriously rorting it (like doing their 9 trips on Monday morning) I hardly think it's worth doing anything about.  I don't think it's unreasonable that people could reach 9 by their trip home Wednesday though, with a lunch time short trip each day.

It's certainly what I would do if I worked in an area with functioning public transport.

WRT free zone 1 travel, if Spring Hill people travel free why shouldn't I be able to go to my local shops ~1.5km down the road for free as well? (In fact I usually do walk there but prefer to take the bus back with the shopping).  To me that delivers an inappropriate benefit to people living in Zone 1.

[somebody]

FWIW, Octopus has no periodical options as far as I can see: http://www.mtr.com.hk/chi/fares_tickets/images/OctopusFare.pdf
From: http://www.mtr.com.hk/eng/fares_tickets/train_service_index.html

They're leading the world on farebox recovery so probably know something.

[SteelPan]

Flat Rate $2 per trip based system, doesn't matter if you're going 1 stop, 10 stops, 20 stops.  Doesn't matter if you do 1 trip a week or 20 trips a week.

We're talking about Public Transit here, not landing a probe on Mars.  LOWER and SIMPLY Structured fares result in A LOT More people using public transit.

It's "only" catching a bus/train/ferry - the more the merrier!

[Mr X]

Flat Rate $2 per trip based system, doesn't matter if you're going 1 stop, 10 stops, 20 stops.  Doesn't matter if you do 1 trip a week or 20 trips a week.

We're talking about Public Transit here, not landing a probe on Mars.  LOWER and SIMPLY Structured fares result in A LOT More people using public transit.

It's "only" catching a bus/train/ferry - the more the merrier!

No.

That only benefits people doing longer trips (i.e. gold coast to Brisbane) at the expense of those with shorter trips in the capital.

[BrizCommuter]

FWIW, Octopus has no periodical options as far as I can see: http://www.mtr.com.hk/chi/fares_tickets/images/OctopusFare.pdf
From: http://www.mtr.com.hk/eng/fares_tickets/train_service_index.html

They're leading the world on farebox recovery so probably know something.

1) The MTR is considerably cheaper than using SE Queensland's public transport, so lack of periodicals is a moot point.
2) The MTR makes loads-a-money through property developments.

[SteelPan]

No.

That only benefits people doing longer trips (i.e. gold coast to Brisbane) at the expense of those with shorter trips in the capital.
[/quote]

There will always be those who claim to "win" and "lose" in any fare system. The basis of my suggestion is that really everyone "wins" and by nature I myself am very wary of "win/win" statements.

A flat rate fare system would:

1. drive dollar-for-dollar fares LOWER for all.  Some more so than others, but they do go lower for all.
2. a flat rate system SIMPLIFIES the fare structure - dramatically.
3. a flat rate system, we know in SE Qld, WILL drive dramatic system use growth.
4. point "3" is THE critical figure that drives public transit system growth.
5. The option is there to introduce a "two zone" IF people felt a single flat fare structure was unfair - the key is the overall fare structure must be kept simple.

I'm not convinced that co-called "fairness" ever produces a good fare system!

[SteelPan]

1) The MTR is considerably cheaper than using SE Queensland's public transport, so lack of periodicals is a moot point.
2) The MTR makes loads-a-money through property developments.

Point "2" is very worthwhile - I have for many years been amazed at the lack of Qld Govt/QR ability to better plan and utilise the considerable value of QR's taxpayer funded real estate footprint, to help off-set the cost of urban rail network.

Look at the complete FAILURE of the previous state govt/QR to deliver on TOD's although promised for years.

Hopefully, the proposed CRR will be a step up for QR when it comes to property planning and development.  Mind you, a few new brooms through the white-collar side of QR will be req'd.

[Gazza]

a flat rate system SIMPLIFIES the fare structure - dramatically.

Meh, Go Card calculates it for you, so I don't really see how  a simple $2 per trip would actually change anything at the users end.
Maybe someone with a paper ticket would like it, but otherwhise it would do zero.

[SteelPan]

a flat rate system SIMPLIFIES the fare structure - dramatically.

Meh, Go Card calculates it for you, so I don't really see how  a simple $2 per trip would actually change anything at the users end.
Maybe someone with a paper ticket would like it, but otherwhise it would do zero.

So, you're saying our current fare structure is simple and therefore leading to growth in use of our PT system?

Also, the entire discussion is about GO CARD, so yes, I do appreciate my suggested system IS Go Card based.

[somebody]

1) The MTR is considerably cheaper than using SE Queensland's public transport, so lack of periodicals is a moot point.

Not moot at all!  I expect that there are people in HK doing 20 journeys a week.  Periodicals would make it harder to reduce the base fare.

And I agree that flat rate is not suitable for Translink/SEQ.  Works out better in Adelaide.  Gawler is only 42km.

[achiruel]

While I agree that flat fare is not a good move, I think the number of zones could be reduce.
(I have used letters for the new zones to avoid confusion, but they could be numbered as now)
e.g. Zones 1 & 2 -> Zone A
Zones 3-5 -> Zone B
Zones 6-8 -> Zone C
Zone 9-12 -> Zone D
Zones 13-17 -> Zone E
Zones 18+ -> Zone F

[somebody]

While I agree that flat fare is not a good move, I think the number of zones could be reduce.
(I have used letters for the new zones to avoid confusion, but they could be numbered as now)
e.g. Zones 1 & 2 -> Zone A
Zones 3-5 -> Zone B
Zones 6-8 -> Zone C
Zone 9-12 -> Zone D
Zones 13-17 -> Zone E
Zones 18+ -> Zone F

I don't see any advantage to reducing the number of zones.  It means that the fare for what is now a single zone would need to rise, at least proportionately.

[HappyTrainGuy]

If anything I want to see more zones if the fares can't be reduced.

[ozbob]

There are far more pressing issues with the fare structure than to fret about the zones.  Only thing that needs sorting is to bring rail and bus zones into sync.  This could be done as part of a flag-fall adjustment.

[SteelPan]

The #1 way to drive PT patronage numbers - THE CRITICAL FIGURE - is to have a simple and affordable public transit system.  Failure to embrace affordable and simple means the issues will not be solved!

[STB]

There's been heated debate on the Queensland Rail Facebook page overnight on price and ticketing, garnering nearly 7,000 likes and over 600 comments.  Quite a bit of it being misinformed commuters over who handles the fares and ticketing.

https://www.facebook.com/QueenslandRail/posts/472931116058587?notif_t=feed_comment_reply

[colinw]

A bit pointless beating up QR for a Government/TransLink issue. I guess most people don't realise they are just the service provider and have no say in fare levels or structure.

[Fares_Fair]

A bit pointless beating up QR for a Government/TransLink issue. I guess most people don't realise they are just the service provider and have no say in fare levels or structure.

Agree 100%.

[Arnz]

There are a few hard headed folks on that thread after being told that a million times.  "Smart State" indeed.

[Gazza]

Over 600 replies, and not one mentioning lack of yearlies/monthlies.
And literally only a couple that mention weekies (who were quickly reminded by others about the 9 journey cap)

Vast majority of comments about fares just being too high.

What does that tell you?

[somebody]

It drives me crazy that we are still talking about regressive periodical options.

[Arnz]

It's unfortunate that QR are copping the flak for the fares, sure the criticism towards QR's reliability may be justified, but they're shouting on the wrong tree in regards to affordability.

If TransLink set up a facebook page tommorow, Facebook would melt down from all the complaints (which would succeed QR's complaints in the entire time they've been active on facebook).

Edit: There's also been plenty of complaints about the "lack" of a return ticket, which was pointed out by many others to "Go get a go card" and stop being backward.  I would've wished that the state government at least looked at the Singapore style of issuing one-use smart cards with a refundable deposit to replace the paper tickets.

[ozbob]

If it was up to me, I would pull all paper tomorrow.  Sometimes you just have to be a little cruel to be kind .. lol

Have you noticed the myki uptake figures? Already at 90% on train/tram, about 80% on bus ...  come on go, come on!

[SurfRail]

If it was up to me, I would pull all paper tomorrow.  Sometimes you just have to be a little cruel to be kind .. lol

Have you noticed the myki uptake figures? Already at 90% on train/tram, about 80% on bus ...  come on go, come on!

To be expected, Metcard has a specific withdrawal date. 

I don't think you will get the "acushlas" of the world over onto go card any other way than stopping paper.

(Loving the comment about how go card is less environmentally friendly than printing off a paper ticket every trip...)

[somebody]

Metcard has been completely removed from sale in some parts of the Melbourne network.

Still, I think the emphasis should be on selling go cards on buses.  Then you don't NEED paper.

[somebody]

I suppose removing sales from ferrys and train stations would be a start and achievable now.

[STB]

I suppose removing sales from ferrys and train stations would be a start and achievable now.

The only problem with that is, as one person quite rightly pointed out in that QR Facebook page debate (still going on amazingly - now nearly 1000 comments and nearly 11,000 likes), is that the AVVMs at the railway stations don't sell Adult go cards, unlike the busway versions.

[STB]

I should mention that this is probably the most comprehensive feedback received about the current ticketing arrangements I've ever seen, even better than a survey.  Like others have noted, it seems that price is the major factor, anything else seems to be more of wishful thinking re: periodicals etc.

[Arnz]

TransLink is going to get 5425253443243 or so pages of feedback from Queensland Rail when all is said and done (which looks like it will take a while!).

[STB]

If it was up to me, I would pull all paper tomorrow.  Sometimes you just have to be a little cruel to be kind .. lol

Have you noticed the myki uptake figures? Already at 90% on train/tram, about 80% on bus ...  come on go, come on!

+1000  Pull freaking paper and get it done and dusted IMO.  There will be those who'll go back to their cars simply because they wanted to stick with paper and then feel 'hard done by' but I would be confident that those would be in the minority.  At the end of the day, technology is moving forward and people just have to accept that they have to move forward with the times and technology as well, if they don't , well then that's their problem, not TransLink/QR/BT/whomever they want to spit venom at.

[#Metro]

+1000  Pull freaking paper and get it done and dusted IMO.

Manual punch cards anyone?

[somebody]

I suppose removing sales from ferrys and train stations would be a start and achievable now.

The only problem with that is, as one person quite rightly pointed out in that QR Facebook page debate (still going on amazingly - now nearly 1000 comments and nearly 11,000 likes), is that the AVVMs at the railway stations don't sell Adult go cards, unlike the busway versions.

There may also be stations without AVVMs, I guess, e.g. Beerburrum.

Ok, perhaps just remove them from manned station ticket windows and citycats which can also sell go cards.  I'm not sure about the cross river ferries.

Removing them from the manned windows may upset a few oldies who don't want to change, but that's really the target market.

Wasn't that just a nit pick?

If it was up to me, I would pull all paper tomorrow.  Sometimes you just have to be a little cruel to be kind .. lol

Have you noticed the myki uptake figures? Already at 90% on train/tram, about 80% on bus ...  come on go, come on!

+1000  Pull freaking paper and get it done and dusted IMO.  There will be those who'll go back to their cars simply because they wanted to stick with paper and then feel 'hard done by' but I would be confident that those would be in the minority.  At the end of the day, technology is moving forward and people just have to accept that they have to move forward with the times and technology as well, if they don't , well then that's their problem, not TransLink/QR/BT/whomever they want to spit venom at.

Yeah well, the biggest obstacle to this is not selling go cards particularly on BT buses.