Go card fare structure - clean slate, what would you do?

[ozbob]

For interest, this is a hypothetical fare table for a $1.50 flag fall adjustment peak adult go, single paper.  Others adjusted proportionally.  Still 20% off peak.

[STB]

Personally I think fixed fares should be upped to the maximum Zone 23 price, to stop those who (I know one) don't touch on/off from travelling long distances, in my mate's case, Nerang, and then tossing out his Go Card to buy another one.  And increase the paper ticket price even more to try and get people onto the Go Card, or just pull the paper altogether (I'm a radical lol).

In saying that though, pre loaded Go Cards should be available on board buses for say $20 ($5 deposit, $15 credit), and all drivers should be fully informed with how the Go Card works and being able to educate those without Go Cards on how to use them if they are buying one for the first time, along with the usual TL pocket thing that shows you how it works.

[STB]

Ozbob, I think those prices for paper tickets is still too low and would still encourage people to buy paper tickets.  I'd say double those paper ticket prices IMO, but keep the Go Card at those prices you suggest.

[ozbob]

The correct thing to do is to remove paper tickets completely, providing go cards are sold on buses eg. $10 and $20 only.  Be lot less sales than single paper tickets, and people would not be ripped off with the obscene paper prices ...


TransLink have a real mess on their hands now.  A fare system that is easily rorted, illogical, and a failure.

The government needs to do something significant for the broader community.  Family go cards are bit of a no-brainer.

Further increases of 7.5% will not be sustainable politically.

In short ...

[somebody]

I know how you feel with that quote!

Personally I think fixed fares should be upped to the maximum Zone 23 price, to stop those who (I know one) don't touch on/off from travelling long distances, in my mate's case, Nerang, and then tossing out his Go Card to buy another one.  And increase the paper ticket price even more to try and get people onto the Go Card, or just pull the paper altogether (I'm a radical lol).

Agree with removing paper.  Just have Go Cards sold on non-prepay buses.  Top ups are something we could argue about.

[somebody]

I think I would much rather we adopt a daily/weekly card system like what is on the oyster card in London.

Really?  Is that a Melbourne type system where you have to load the pass on the card, or is it automatically loaded?  I'd be dead against the former.

Automatic of course. PT should be easy to use. I recall all the flyers you got with the Oyster card said you could put your own weekly passon it, but also said if you just touch on and off as you use it, it will calculate the cheapest fare and give you that for your travels.

Not supported by some web pages on the Oyster.  While the daily pass is automatically added, longer periodicals must be loaded on. 

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/19799.aspx

I, and others, feel that this notion is just retarded.

[Golliwog]

I agree, having to pre-load a periodical option is a hassle. Though I guess in terms of how the software would need to be set up to recognise different caps and automatically use them, once you start to incorporate weekly, monthly and longer (that is what is available on Oyster, I would think that weekly would be enough, others will probably differ though).

I suppose though it depends on how easily they are pre-loaded though. If you had to use a ticket machine every time, that would be a hassle, but if you could set it up like we have the auto-topup here, I think that would be ok.

[somebody]

Be pretty annoying if you go on holidays and aren't using the service to have the charge deducted.

[Golliwog]

Be pretty annoying if you go on holidays and aren't using the service to have the charge deducted.

I don't see why it would be any different to auto-top up though. Amount can be deducted from you credit card, but if you don't touch on to activate it your funds are returned. If you forgot to tell it not to give you a new weekly a few days before you go on holidays though and touch on and activate the new weekly, thats your own problem, same as if you have auto-top up set up to put a large sum on your go card and it does that just before you go away to not use it for a long period of time.

[somebody]

That would require additional rules and complexity which is simply removed if periodicals are removed.

[Golliwog]

That would require additional rules and complexity which is simply removed if periodicals are removed.

Perhaps from a back of house perspective when it's being setup, but from a passenger point of view, once it's in place it's no more complex than setting up auto top up.

[ozbob]

myki pass is easy.  You just choose period and zones and go for it.  No harder then myki money.

[somebody]

It's a retrograde step vs go card.

[ozbob]

It's a retrograde step vs go card.

Go card system as is not capable, and would take around 12 months to get it enabled as I understand it.  I don't think they will go that way, but there was a lot of pressure on the LNP re periodicals prior to the election from public transport users.  Hence the mantra of 9 journey cap as a 'discounted weekly' ...

[somebody]

There may be political pressure, but I would regard it as a poor policy.

[achiruel]

Ozbob, I think those prices for paper tickets is still too low and would still encourage people to buy paper tickets.  I'd say double those paper ticket prices IMO, but keep the Go Card at those prices you suggest.

I think IF we are to maintain paper tickets, they should be rounded up to the nearest whole dollar to reduce the amount small change needed.  So in Ozbob's hypothetical table above, 1z-$3, 2z-$4, 3z-$5 etc.  Might make paper tickets slightly less inconvenient to other passengers.

[aldonius]

Trouble with that is that if your per-zone component is less than your rounding increment, occasionally two things will round to the same place.

I did up a little spreadsheet of my own, with values people can change if interested...
Google Docs version (you'll need to download it to change the values, though).
2011 Excel (in Dropbox) version.

[somebody]

myki pass is easy.  You just choose period and zones and go for it.  No harder then myki money.

Quite frankly, this is clearly incorrect.  It might not be much harder, but harder nonetheless.  Not very nice for bus users with unregistered cards for example - there needs to be a fare machine to load it on.

Derwan's poll a while back showed that there is an element which loves this idea for reasons which are not entirely clear to me.  About 20% like it.

You're going to say I'm nit picking I guess.

[ozbob]

Simon, I have spoken to people who actually use it.  It is not hard at all.  And I have used the myki as well, only myki money though.

Online, and at any machine.  Also by phone. 

But that is not the issue.  I doubt that periodical options as such will be enabled on the go card so just relax.

[somebody]

So it's just as easy to have to do it as to not have to do it. 

[ozbob]

One of the nice little things with myki is you can use it as a 'money box'  spare dollar or two and add it to your myki money.  When it is time to get a new pass just buy out of the myki money.

[triplethree]

Clean slate, what would I do?

Apart from minor tweaking, I would absolutely, positively, definitely, 100% allow Go Card users to load periodical tickets onto their Go Cards. Like Myki Money in Melbourne and Travelcards on the Oyster Card in London.

I would price weeklies at 8x the single peak fare for a given band of zones. I would price monthlies at four weeklies.

So, you could go to the Go Card website, and either load (or maybe auto-load every week) a weekly onto your Go Card. Or do it at a TVM or train station or even the 7/11s and newsagents.

Once you load your periodical ticket onto your card, you can travel wherever you want in your selected zones at no extra cost. But if you go outside your zones, you will pay.

So, say you load a Zone 1-3 weekly, and commute from Zone 3 to Zone 1 and back five times a week. But on the weekend you go out to Zone 15 and back. You'll only pay the off-peak single fares Zone 4 to 15, and Zone 15 to 4.

As for the zone graduations ... it's a fine balance. Make the zones too fine (e.g., Sydney Buses with sections every 1.6 kilometres ... i.e., every mile ... geddit? Hasn't changed since Australia adopted the metric system in 1974!) and you create fare complexity. Make the zones too coarse (e.g. Melbourne with two zones; Sydney MyMulti with three zones and Sydney MyTrain with five distance bands; Vancouver with three zones) and the marginal cost of crossing a fare boundary is too steep. I think Brisbane gets it about right. But as I've said before, balance is in the eye of the beholder!

[somebody]

Well 333, that would put you in the minority, with ozbob, Fares_Fair and SurfRail (and perhaps someone else).  That is perfectly fine, of course.  Just so long as that fact is recognised.

[SurfRail]

Well 333, that would put you in the minority, with ozbob, Fares_Fair and SurfRail (and perhaps someone else).  That is perfectly fine, of course.  Just so long as that fact is recognised.

My views on the subject have changed over the last year.  I don't especially care either way.  I would not object to periodicals, but I will not agitate for them. 

I think the current system of products and fare zones is fine, the significant issues for me are:

1. Flagfall too high and disadvantages the majority of passengers (travelling 1-2 fare zones)
2. Zone discrepancies between bus and rail (should be eliminated)
3. Off-peak discount inadequately low (but needs to be matched with appropriate levels of service)
4. Paper still exists
5. System is still not as reliable as it should be.

Maybe things to consider as a way of stimulating patronage:

1. Zone 1 travel is entirely free - only available with a successful touch on or touch off.  The system should be configured to not register free travel as a paid journey and therefore these would not count to the weekly cap - and so people like me would have their little loop-hole closed.

2. Leave the fare zones in place but look at (perversely, I know) Sydney's system where you have a sliding scale of fare bands, eg:

1-3 zones - attract a single price, wherever those 3 zones are (except zone 1 which is free), but less than a current 3 zone fare.
4-6 zones - attract a higher price, but less than a current 6 zone fare
7-9 zones - attract a higher price, but less than a current 9 zone fare

Would be cheaper than changing all the signs so we end up with big zones, and also means that you don't get penalised like you would if you lived on the cusp of one zone.

[somebody]

Thanks for letting us know, SR.

I'm in two minds about your suggestion of needing to cross multiple fare zones to increase the price.  Seems to make short trips too expensive, necessarily.

[ozbob]

I think the key is getting the flag fall down.  Doesn't need much more than that, I don't think they would close off the free after nine, too political.

As far as periodicals go on the go, unlikely to happen 333.  The sell of the 9 journey cap as a 'discounted weekly' was the response to the punters who were pushing for that. 

My views are clear in the OP ...

[STB]

Just to add my voice - I prefer the 9 journey cap as well, at least it's basically a weekly ticket for everyone and as a student it comes in handy in fickle circumstances when my funds are low (quite often - damn Austudy), and I need to save every cent that I can get but still need to travel to get to places, like uni.

[triplethree]

As far as periodicals go on the go, unlikely to happen 333.  The sell of the 9 journey cap as a 'discounted weekly' was the response to the punters who were pushing for that. 

If we can't have periodical options, then the "nine and free" option is the best possible alternative. It almost functions like a weekly anyway, assuming all your nine paid journeys are for the same zones. My only problem with "nine and free" is, as has been pointed out often here, its rortability.

I guess I should qualify my support for periodicals by saying that while I support them, I don't support them violently. The lack of periodicals isn't worth starting a revolution over. I'd like to have weeklies, but they're not necessary.

[Gazza]

1. Zone 1 travel is entirely free - only available with a successful touch on or touch off.  The system should be configured to not register free travel as a paid journey and therefore these would not count to the weekly cap - and so people like me would have their little loop-hole closed.

Just to clarify...One zone, or zone 1?

I'm a bit opposed to Brisbane CBD centric policies, but I wouldn't mind if those little short trips that potentially occur anywhere across SEQ could be done for free.

Couple of other things.
-I don't think the rorting will happen too much..Because the time you have to spend doing the lunch time trip, and the fact it is a high flagfall 1 zone trip makes a bit uneconomical IMO.

-Someone mentioned that the fixed rail fare should be 23 zone...Disagree because only a couple of trains per day go beyond  Zone 17.
Zone 17 fixed fare captures Nambour and Varsity quite nicely.

-Don't see the need for loadable periodicals. 9 then free is the same.
Not many people actually bought monthlies/yearlies anyway (It was like 3% I think?), so why waste programming time and money to cater for that functionality?

I would much rather a daily cap though, with the calculation method the same as London or Melbourne (Daily cap = 2x the longest trip)

[Arnz]

Outer suburban and coastal people would still be able take their short trips after work, either for a trip down the pub/a few streets down and walk back home, or to the local shops/diner to grab dinner after work and have that count towards the cap.  And that's if they're lucky that the bus service on their local route/s runs after 6pm on a reduced frequency (some areas may have their bus services drop to half-hourly or hourly after 6pm, but other areas are not so lucky and may have no services after 6pm).

Penalizing that is not going to encourage commuters to take short trips on their local bus network in Ipswich, Redcliffe or Caboolture outside of the 9-5pm grind.  I would think encouraging people in the outer areas, as well as the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast to use their local bus network outside of their work hours should be done.

[SurfRail]

Just to clarify...One zone, or zone 1?

I'm a bit opposed to Brisbane CBD centric policies, but I wouldn't mind if those little short trips that potentially occur anywhere across SEQ could be done for free.

Specifically Zone 1, like the FTZ in central Perth.  This would really necessitate removing the anomaly between bus and rail (eg so Toowong is always in Zone 2).  Go card activation would cut down on the rorting which can happen in Perth, where you just hop on the non-CAT buses with no questions asked (the rail stations need a touch-on and touch-off).

[achiruel]

I'm not a fan of free Zone 1 travel.  Effectively it means a lot of people living in Sth Brisbane, Fortitude Valley, etc. would not have to pay for their journey to work (assuming they're working in Zone 1 as well).

[SurfRail]

I'm not a fan of free Zone 1 travel.  Effectively it means a lot of people living in Sth Brisbane, Fortitude Valley, etc. would not have to pay for their journey to work (assuming they're working in Zone 1 as well).

Rewards them for being virtually no impost on the transport system.

The same logic applies to the Spring Hill Loop and the CityHopper, yet we still have them.

[dwb]

When Translink commenced and patronage surged in 2004 full fares for journeys were calculated using a flagfall fee plus a zone fee dependant on the number of zones you travelled. The flagfall was $1.60 and the zone fee was 40c per zone (up to 10 zones, then up to 80c for each zone thereafter).

It is remarkable how close the 2012 full adult fares table is to the 2004 table... In effect the flagfall has increased about a dollar (~66c above inflation to $2.60) and the zone fee has been raised more or less by CPI only to 48c. I've used the National Australian calculation of CPI for "transport" of roughly 21% June 2004 to June 2012 (http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/6401.0Mar%202012?OpenDocument).

Before anyone says "but how did my fare double?", well that was in effect due to the the removal of discounts, weeklies, monthlies, QR tickets etc.

Any change of fares under the current government a few things would have to be acknowledged:
_ the loss of free lunch QR tickets will not be reversed (nor should it)
_ under cutting fares is highly unlikely due to the "abyss of debt"
_ next two raises must be kept within 7.5% electoral promise
_ '9-then-free-weekly' electoral promise isn't likely to go anywhere
_ no one whatsoever is talking about changing ultimate number of zones (no need, programming and signage costs.

I think the best that could be hoped for is that the government
_ increases the offpeak discount above what was planned
_ fares are tweaked to simplify understanding
_ fares remain stable over the next couple of years
_ a formula that may be applied annually to adjust fares in future is determined

[somebody]

Point of order: 40c per zone up to 9 zones in 2004: http://web.archive.org/web/20040806122157/http://www.translink.com.au/qt/TransLin.nsf/index/TransLinkNewSystemFaresZones

Average increment for zones 2-9 is 58c now, not 48c.  The 11th, 12th and 13th zones now have low increments 39c-53c.

Largest discrepancy between now and 2004 is indeed zone 1, at 52.5%.

[ozbob]

Reducing the flagfall would result in an immediate revenue down turn, but patronage would be expected to increase significantly from that point, and I think will more than compensate for the reduction.

It (the fare structure) needs a complete rethink ...  time to be brave!

[dwb]

It (the fare structure) needs a complete rethink ...  time to be brave!

It is not brave it is stupid.

What would be brave is talking about the funding alternatives, for example road pricing, cordon toll, rates/property levies, Council contributions etc.

Figures show patronage hasn't shrunk in peak, just annual growth has been stunted and I think there are broader economic reasons for this. The system is/was more or less at capacity at peak anyway, so continued 5% annual growth in peak isn't really feasible from an infrastructure perpective atm. Patronage would have capped out anyway in peak, so there is no real loss of peak customers/ peak revenue.

[somebody]

Plenty of space in the buses in the morning peak on Ipswich Rd, and evening peak.

Plenty of space in the trains on the Ipswich line - standing only for the trains from Ipswich though.  Seats for the all stoppers.

[ozbob]

Flagfall reduction would not be done in isolation.  Off peak discount increased, zones corrected for modes and the other possibilities such as congestion tolling etc.  To continue down the present path of fare mediocrity is just going to cost a lot more in congestion, trauma and environmental costs. 

[dwb]

IMO they need to stop fiddling with fares and WIND DOWN COSTS!

I just don't see the current government reducing fares. The pain has already been suffered politically, and the system needs to funds, there isn't any point winding it back too far, rather it would be better to just offset any further increases.