Go card fare structure - clean slate, what would you do?

[ozbob]

The LNP's Commission of Audit, and their budget is basically bullsh%t IMHO ...

[Golliwog]

The LNP's Commission of Audit, and their budget is basically bullsh%t IMHO ...

Pretty much. I knew the CoA would be full of poor assumptions to make the previous government look bad, but I never expected the budget to be as poorly costed as it appears to be.

[somebody]

Understand ' rubbery ' budget figures re go card free travel after nine has been raised in Parliament this afternoon by Opposition Transport Spokesperson Ms Trad.

http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/hansard/2012/2012_09_14_DAILY.pdf
page 54

We have already seen some pretty dodgy figures about the Department of Transport and Main Roads reported in the Courier-Mail. I want to bring to the attention of the House another example of the lazy accounting from the lazy Treasurer used in this budget. I am referring to the policy of free travel on
the TransLink network after nine trips in a Monday to Sunday week. The LNP projected in Budget Paper that this policy will cost $8.4 million this financial year, $9.6 million next financial year and approximately $10 million in the two years after that. When I saw the figures, I thought they looked remarkably familiar; in fact, they were copied and pasted exactly from the LNP's pre-election policy.

I note that, when the LNP made this election policy, Labor's policy of free travel after 10 journeys was already in place and was costing taxpayers $6.7 million a year. In the ultimate exercise in lazy policy making, the LNP just shifted the goalpost and proposed free travel after nine trips in a week. They told us all that it would only cost an additional $9 million a year on top of the current $6.7 million, but the
figures so far just do not stack up. Between when the policy was introduced in June and August, thepolicy had already cost $3 million—that is $428,000 a week. It does not add up.

So the tenth free trip is more costly than all the free trips after that combined.

Unsurprising.

Sometimes in life you have to do what is right, not what is thought of as ' popular ' ...

Few people would do anything different in their position.  The lost political capital is just too much, for too little benefit.

Life, not politics... 

Quite.

[ozbob]

I cannot support a fare system that is turning away people from public transport in droves.

A fare system that is increasingly excluding family groups and the like.

A fare system that cannot offer basic concessions to all health care card holders

A fare system that is causing massive flow on costs in terms of congestion, road trauma and environmental impacts.

A fare system prone to rorting, pure and simple.

It is time the Government and TransLink moved to sort it.  One more broken 'political promise' matters little.

Have a look at Qconnect one zone fares, overall reasonable flagfalls.  Interesting days coming up for TransLink - Queensland.

--> http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Travel-and-transport/Qconnect/Urban-bus-services.aspx

[somebody]

They could just put down the flag fall and fares generally without reversing 9 then free

[ozbob]

Zone one fares for interest - Adult Single

Airlie Beach and Proserpine:  $2.80

Bowen: $2

Bundaberg: $2.30

Cairns:  $2.20

Gladstone: $2.20

Gympie: $2.24

Hervey Bay $2.20

Innisfail $2.20

Kilcoy to Caboolture: $2.70

Mackay: $2.20

Magnetic Island: $1.70

Maleny to Beerwah: $2.70

Maryborough: $2.20

North Stradbroke: $2.20

Rockhampton: $2.20

Toowoomba: $2.20

Townsville: $2.30

Warwick: $2.40

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Travel-and-transport/Qconnect/Urban-bus-services.aspx


TransLink: $3.05 (go card), $4.50 (paper single)

http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/fares/current-fares

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

17th September 2012

Re: 2012 State Budget - fare review needed

Greetings,

To further demonstrate how out of kilter south-east Queensland TransLink fares are.  Consider a scan of Qconnect fares throughout Queensland.

The base fare (flagfall) is much more reasonable throughout Queensland.  How to fix it in south-east Queensland: SEQ: Reduce or eliminate the fare 'flag-fall'  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=8673.msg102944#msg102944

Zone one fares for interest - Adult Single

Airlie Beach and Proserpine:  $2.80

Bowen: $2

Bundaberg: $2.30

Cairns:  $2.20

Gladstone: $2.20

Gympie: $2.24

Hervey Bay $2.20

Innisfail $2.20

Kilcoy to Caboolture: $2.70

Mackay: $2.20

Magnetic Island: $1.70

Maleny to Beerwah: $2.70

Maryborough: $2.20

North Stradbroke: $2.20

Rockhampton: $2.20

Toowoomba: $2.20

Townsville: $2.30

Warwick: $2.40

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Travel-and-transport/Qconnect/Urban-bus-services.aspx


TransLink: $3.05 (go card), $4.50 (paper single)

http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/fares/current-fares

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Townsville also has City fare at $1.70

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Travel-and-transport/Qconnect/Urban-bus-services.aspx#townsville

[ozbob]

From the Brisbane mX 18 September 2012 page 2

More trains on the go

More trains on the go
Felicity Caldwell

COMMUTERS will soon be able to turn up and ''go'' at stations on the Ferny Grove train line, with more frequent services starting next month. Transport Minister Scott Emerson and Premier Campbell Newman today announced trains would arrive on the Ferny Grove line every 15 minutes starting from October 8. The new services, part of an LNP election commitment, mean there'll be 28 new train services a day between 9am and 3pm.

"For too long passengers on Brisbane public transport have paid too much for poor frequency," Newman said.

"However, a train every 15 minutes or better inbound and outbound on the Ferny Grove line during off peak on weekdays now means frequent public transport is never far away."

Emerson said new services would also operate through the CBD to Park Rd station on the Beenleigh line, providing more off-peak weekday options on the off-peak weekday options on the southern side of the river.

"Better frequency is the third plank of our strategy to get people back on to public transport," he said.

Meanwhile, a Griffith University urban researcher says a shake-up of public transport fares is necessary to encourage people back to buses and trains.

Griffith Uni's Jago Dodson said bringing back daily, weekly and monthly tickets, or "all you can eat" tickets, would help drive people back to public transport.

"It encourages passengers to show their loyalty to the system they're invested in by using it as much as they can," he said.

"Even though operators aren't recovering the cost of each additional trip taken for free, there's other benefits to the transport system including encouraging people out of cars."

[ozbob]

I missed this article when first published.

The fact that an expert considers that the fares need a 'shake up' is further evidence, although periodicals are not likely to be reintroduced my own position is clear

from OP

1. Pull back the base (flag-fall) by a $1.50, all zones.  So a one zone go card fare (peak adult) = $1.55. Zone 23 = $17.95

2. Off peak discount 30%.  Off peak zone one adult $1.09

3. Change 2am touch on to 7am touch off.

4. 50% fare reduction after 8 journeys per week - no free travel.

5. Increase number of transfers allowed in journey from 3 to 4.  Keep 6 hour limit, but change last transfer time from 3.30 hour to 4hours.

6. Planned fare increases of 7.5% for next two years frozen.

This would arrest the leakage and make for a more balanced system.

Additionally family/group ticketing and a re-assessment of the two and free arrangement for Seniors (preferably free off peak).  Seniors are not overwhelming supportive of this two then free stuff either.

Concession fares to ALL health care card holders.

[ozbob]

Interesting, Translink Metro Vancouver.

Compass Cards and Products  --> http://www.translink.ca/en/Fares-and-Passes/Compass-Card/Compass-Cards-and-Products.aspx

[somebody]

Hmm, yet another jurisdiction going for the egregious (IMO) failure of a loadable periodical.

[Arnz]

Speaking of Health Care Cards, I would suggest the health care concession go card be linked to Centrelink records for those on Newstart. 

The concession gets taken away if Centrelink finds that they are not attending interviews, sessions, etc. (eg a "invalid card" message).

[Mr X]

I was playing around with some figures in excel and came up with a fairer fare structure.

All fares have been reduced by 35% off the current, with a 30c flagfall taken off that.
Concession fares are now 40% of the adult fare, and off-peak discount has been increased to 25%. Paper tickets are 30% higher than peak go card fare.



Beats the rubbish we have to put up with now and it's probably a little too cheap.

[#Metro]

Fares are not my specialty, I will leave much of the work to others.

However, I just don't think fares are ever going to go backwards. The only time I have seen prices on anything go backwards is at Coles and Woolies. I am yet to see any government roll back any fees or charges of any kind ever. With this in mind, I think future increases should be severely limited, and instead focus on improving value for money by adding more service.

Why? An expensive network should provide a high level and quality of service, to justify the expense. With the car-relative-cost theory developed in another thread, travelling longer distances should cost more (I know some people will not like this) simply because it cost more to run service that far, and if you want to encourage a compact city, you don't charge huge prices for inner city areas making people move out further. The method I used in the other thread suggests that long distance trip costs are about right, its the inner areas where prices need to come down.

Gimmicks should be dumped (I am talking 9 then free etc). A decent thoroughly good system should not need gimmicks to bribe people to use it. It should be good enough to attract proper patronage anyway through quality. Gimmicks are there for vote touting purposes only. If a person is a frequent user, they are going to make that additional trip anyway. That and they probably travel so much because they have a job to go to, and thus have $$$ and can afford it. Money saved can be diverted to health care card holders who have no sort of discount and are the people who actually need it. Passes seem to be OK as well.

Paper tickets should be eliminated. End of. The whole purpose of electronic ticketing was to eliminate paper.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I agree too. I just don't see the prices ever going down.

With the car-relative-cost theory developed in another thread, travelling longer distances should cost more (I know some people will not like this)

Nope, I 110% agree with you. When I see people from the Sunshine Coast/Gold Coast complaining about fares because they have to commute 80+km each way I honestly think who gives a damn. They choose to commute that distance so should expect to pay $$$ for that privillage to do so when they are the ones that are also abusing the 9 trips then free scheme. Its a shame that the frequency and stopping patterns isn't up to scratch but just be lucky you can even get a service that can cover that same distance for such a cheap price while people making shorter trips are the ones being scammed. Public Transport (GoCard) is almost the most expensive way to cross the Brisbane River. Next year it would be $3.28/$2.63. Go between bridge is $2.50 IIRC. Gateway Motorway is $4. Moggill Ferry is a nice $1.85. The free ferries that the BCC provide are just batshit crazy! Its the holiday period and the visual patronage of the free ferries at Southbank is just down right insane! It really makes you wonder how much better patronage and utilisation of services you can get by reducing the fares for those making the shorter trips/journeys.

The only gimmick should be a family GoCard and a proper cap system ie you pay for the two longest journeys made each day with any shorter journeys (bus to get lunch etc) being free. None of this getting on the bus for lunch during the week so I can get free long distance trips to/from work later in the week.

[#Metro]

The free ferries that the BCC provide are just batshit crazy! Its the holiday period and the visual patronage of the free ferries at Southbank is just down right insane! It really makes you wonder how much better patronage and utilisation of services you can get by reducing the fares for those making the shorter trips/journeys.

Yes, this IS a surprise. I didn't think there was THAT much demand for a half hourly ferry on a very slow boat. The method in the other thread suggests that a fair price, based on relative speed vs car, for the 199 is about $1.00.
I think if fares were lowered to even $1 as an experiment and advertised who knows what might happen - might need to run the service every 5 minutes all day...

[HappyTrainGuy]

Mandatory gold coin donation

If Adult fares were even based on the current Concession prices ($1.20 or something) there would be more demand for public transport. If the network was improved as well both in frequency, stop locations, running patterns and routing there might even be a mode shift for a greater share. At that price just imagine how popular the 199/CityGlider could be on Thursday night to Sunday morning! You could improve that even more for surban areas if trading hours were extended.

Even after the floods with the free period there were more people utilising the services that I saw (train especially as the northside was mostly unaffected compared to the west side, east side and south side). Even when the Sunshine Coast has its free period there is more people using those services. The key is to get a good pricing structure that encourages people onto it. Not overcharge people for a crappy hourly service that cuts out after 6-7pm.

But we all know fares won't be going down. Sigh.

[#Metro]

I am working on some basic ideas.
Let's assume that you can't roll back fares.

Now we have that out of the way, here are some thoughts so far:

1. Abolish zone 1's area and amalgamate with zone 2. Completely useless zone.

2. Freeze off-peak fares (this will allow value for money to catch up)

3. Apply fare increases only to peak times, with these increases being up to, for example, 10%

4. Abolish all paper ticketing prices - because there would be NO paper tickets to sell anymore! (I highly suspect the reason why it is so hard to dump paper is because the agency is cashing in on it)

5. Consider an 'early bird' category for weekdays to shift peak load to shoulder times - peak hour starting at 2 am seems silly. Peaky demand is hugely costly to cater for. Some larger organisations have flexitime arrangements and so perhaps these category of people could be coaxed to leave/arrive in the shoulder.

6. Make shorter trips much cheaper, and longer trips much more expensive. Coast commuters are going to hate me but the cost for short trips in Brisbane are just totally off the planet, and the cost to run a service 100km out of the city just to pick up two or three train loads of pax is phenomenal. Most people that work in the city live in the city also, fewer people live further out, so it is a case of the utilitarian principle IMHO http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism and this will encourage less sprawl, and is also the least worst scenario if you want to make sure that the least number of people shift to car. Long distance commuters are paying time to save money.

7. Scrap frequent user nonsense. Ideally passes would be much better, or failing that, a daily cap of some sort after three journeys. At least we know a daily cap is possible because the pensioners already have this option.

8. Extend concessions to health care card holders. These people can't even put food on the table, don't have capacity to pay, and they're made to pay full fare? And then discount gets given to person with high paying job to which they daily commute to - seems very wrong.

9. Do a fare review and find out people's values before making changes

I'll post more thoughts later.

[somebody]

The only gimmick should be a family GoCard and a proper cap system ie you pay for the two longest journeys made each day with any shorter journeys (bus to get lunch etc) being free. None of this getting on the bus for lunch during the week so I can get free long distance trips to/from work later in the week.

Price of a daily cap should either be above 2 peak trips for the respective zones, or exclude AM peak trips.  Otherwise it represents free trips to 9-5 commuters, which I don't support at all.

TT,

1. Abolish zone 1's area and amalgamate with zone 2. Completely useless zone.

Disagree with this.  It adds a zone for CBD commuters which is fair.

7. Scrap frequent user nonsense. Ideally passes would be much better, or failing that, a daily cap of some sort after three journeys. At least we know a daily cap is possible because the pensioners already have this option.

That would be much more expensive for frequent users, unless of course the off peak discount was increased dramatically.  Seems like a major deterrent to living car free to me, which makes it a bad policy in my book.  I suppose **** is about to say that pricing the cap above 2 peak journeys is a disincentive, but it is not necessarily such a major one.

8. Extend concessions to health care card holders. These people can't even put food on the table, don't have capacity to pay, and they're made to pay full fare? And then discount gets given to person with high paying job to which they daily commute to - seems very wrong.

I'm sure we would all support this.

9. Do a fare review and find out people's values before making changes

If they are as constrained as we believe, this probably doesn't make a huge amount of sense in 2013.

[#Metro]

Price of a daily cap should either be above 2 peak trips for the respective zones, or exclude AM peak trips.  Otherwise it represents free trips to 9-5 commuters, which I don't support at all.

We both agree on this. 

Disagree with this.  It adds a zone for CBD commuters which is fair.

In what sense of the word is it unfair? This zone is so tiny as to be almost purposeless. CBD commuters? Commuting to what? One end of Adelaide Street to the other?

That would be much more expensive for frequent users, unless of course the off peak discount was increased dramatically.  Seems like a major deterrent to living car free to me,

Discounts should not flow to people who don't need them and can afford otherwise and would make that additional trip anyway. No such thing as free lunch. Look at 9 then free - sounded good when it started, now just a black hole..

[somebody]

In what sense of the word is it unfair? This zone is so tiny as to be almost purposeless. CBD commuters? Commuting to what? One end of Adelaide Street to the other?

E.g. coming from Moggill to CBD would be one zone less if you removed the CBD zone.  You can substitute any particular origin.  I don't get this plan at all.

Discounts should not flow to people who don't need them and can afford otherwise and would make that additional trip anyway. No such thing as free lunch. Look at 9 then free - sounded good when it started, now just a black hole..

9 then free never sounded good.

Why make it so expensive to live car free that no one would do it unless you are able to walk everywhere?

[ozbob]

The original proposal by the go card reference group for a daily cap was two x highest journey + loading eg. 30% of that journey.

So someone who commuted from zone 3 to zone 1 daily peak, their cap would be $10.49 (2013 fares)

They could travel to and from the City in the evening for $1.37 under this sort of cap.

[ozbob]

There is another consideration with respect to fares. TransLink is taking over all of Q-Connect.  I would expect there would be a commonality of the fare system across the many jurisdictions.  There is a wide variation in ticketing practices at present.  Imposing the botched fare path of SEQ on the rest of Q Connect would lead to a revolt no doubt.  Going to be interesting how they handle this challenge, past form is not encouraging is it?

[somebody]

I received a copy of this in the mail today. Dated July 2012 - Issue 1. And accredited to the Sunshine Coast Council.

It is 28 page double DL.

It lists train links with Brisbane as well as local bus services operated by Sunbus and qconnect services operated by Glasshouse Country Coaches.

In the list of routes there is also route 649 Nambour to Caboolture listed operated by Kangaroo Bus Lines. On the map this is shown as a railbus service.

Aganst the Glasshouse routes there are comments that: " The use of Translink's go card is currently not available". So it could be usable in the future?
http://busaustralia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=68888

Last line infers that there may be plans to put the Go Card into the Glasshouse routes.

Can't imagine them having different fares to the Translink fares.

[Arnz]

This is my basic messing around of the fare table.  Let's say this is implemented in July 2013.  I've started the Zone 1 fare at $2.50 (basically equalling out the 1 zone trip increase to 5.5 cents a year (from $2.00 in 2004) over 9 years).

Some explanations are also in the image.

[#Metro]

Great work Arnz.

What I would say is what are the PT systems with good ticketing that we might be interested in copying and why?

[somebody]

Why have two levels of off peak discount?

[Mr X]

Should we have different concession prices for children, seniors and pensioners like they do in Singapore? Or would that make it too complex?

[Arnz]

Why have two levels of off peak discount?

Compensation for the removal of the FUD, whilst at the same encouraging weekend travel, which generally has less patronage than weekday travel in general (both peak and off-peak).  More than happy to be pointed to a source saying otherwise.

Removal of the FUD stops fare leakage whilst allowing some compensation of the FUD with the 2nd layer of off-peak (Weekend) discount at times where there are generally less people taking PT. 

I've noted suggestions in the other thread where posters are suggesting 40%-50% off the Adult peak fare for Weekend/Public Holiday travels.  I think 35% is reasonable enough, but I don't mind if it was 40%. 

QR CityTrain in the old pre-TransLink days used to do the half-fare weekends, thought it was limited to trains and co-ordinated TrainLink buses only.

[Arnz]

Should we have different concession prices for children, seniors and pensioners like they do in Singapore? Or would that make it too complex?

I would say I'd lean towards supporting cheaper than the standard concession fares for the War Veterans at the most.  On Anzac Day, they travel for free as always.

[somebody]

Why have two levels of off peak discount?

... encouraging weekend travel, which generally has less patronage than weekday travel in general (both peak and off-peak).  More than happy to be pointed to a source saying otherwise.

Interesting argument.  I'm inclined to think it would be too much complexity, but it is a valid point you raise here.  The cost side doesn't favour it though.  It isn't any cheaper to provide the service weekdays than weekends except for possibly more traffic slowing down buses on weekdays.

[SurfRail]

Why have two levels of off peak discount?

... encouraging weekend travel, which generally has less patronage than weekday travel in general (both peak and off-peak).  More than happy to be pointed to a source saying otherwise.

Interesting argument.  I'm inclined to think it would be too much complexity, but it is a valid point you raise here.  The cost side doesn't favour it though.  It isn't any cheaper to provide the service weekdays than weekends except for possibly more traffic slowing down buses on weekdays.

It clearly works for Melbourne.  I don't think you can attribute the high level of utilisation on weekends solely to frequency.

[ozbob]

Yep, the flat fare on the myki helps a lot.  Three lines have 10 minute weekend frequency Dandenong, Frankston, Ringwood lines between 10.30am and 7pm.  Made getting around very easy last time I was in Melbourne as mainly travelling on the Dandy ...

[somebody]

It clearly works for Melbourne.  I don't think you can attribute the high level of utilisation on weekends solely to frequency.

I'd agree to the extent that giving very cheap fares is promoting patronage.  I don't like it very much because (a) it is flat rate rather than zonal (b) it doesn't help with interpeak or weekday evenings (c) at what cost to farebox recovery is such a high discount for zone 1+2 people?

However, there has to be more to it than that because the Sunday cheap fare deal was still around in 2004.  It's just been extended to Saturdays now.  Perhaps extending it to Saturdays has increased its profile?

It's a 50% discount in Zone 1, 28% discount in Zone 2 and 70% discount in Zones 1+2.  I think the Zone 1 rate is closest to being about right.

Our pissy 20% discount just doesn't cut it.

[ozbob]

... Our pissy 20% discount just doesn't cut it ...

Yes, must admit was surprised that off peak discount was not increased in line with the fare increase this year.  The 5 year fare path strategy is completely off the rails anyway, but it seems there is a growing realisation that something needs to be done with a new one.

There is a high level of public awareness in Melbourne re cheap weekend travel, well at least amongst those I speak too.  But I would also suggest there would be a lot travelling without valid ticketing as well.   Be interesting to watch pax leaving a station these days, and how many actually touch off with a myki .. lol.  Some days and some stations west of Darra it is interesting to observe how many actually touch off on leaving the station, not many at times and I doubt very much if they all have paper singles ...   

[Mr X]

Are there going to be similar fare increases in 2015, 2016, 2017 etc??

I would imagine that surely if fares have increased 70-100% (relative) to 2008 prices that the government subsidy of 75% has been significantly reduced? If not, something fishy is going on...

[#Metro]

I would imagine that surely if fares have increased 70-100% (relative) to 2008 prices that the government subsidy of 75% has been significantly reduced? If not, something fishy is going on...

A VERY good observation. My suggestion is that because off-peak fares increase every time fares increase and short distance and rail trips are affected disproportionately, TL is shooting itself in the foot. How close is the reality to the model? Models can be off, as we have seen with AirportLink and Clem7 traffic modelling, and not all elasticities are linear - especially at extremes and with big large increases.

Fare increases should be applied to peak hour only, freeze off peak and should also be weighted to increase  the more zones are used/travelled.

Huge growth in fringe areas = more community service obligation/coverage services that run bare minimum services but cost heaps - I am talking Springfield/Yarrabilba/Ripley.

[Jonas Jade]

Fare increases should be applied to peak hour only, freeze off peak and should also be weighted to increase  the more zones are used/travelled.

I strongly agree with this, off-peak travel is a lot more discretionary and more prone to be affected by price increases, especially when poor frequencies are involved.

[somebody]

Are there going to be similar fare increases in 2015, 2016, 2017 etc??

I would imagine that surely if fares have increased 70-100% (relative) to 2008 prices that the government subsidy of 75% has been significantly reduced? If not, something fishy is going on...

Costs per service-km have been increasing in real terms.

Plans have been announced by both sides of politics for fare rises in 2014 but nothing announced for 2015 and beyond.