BT whole of network review

[#Metro]

This thread is for discussing and posting images for a BT whole of network review.
Might be helpful to agree on basic principles first.

My contributions:

* Core Frequent Network first priority - Bulimba, Centenary, Northwest, GCL (arterial roads)
* Non-core frequent stuff next - things like 174/175, 411
* Action on 'Legacy Routing' - cut certain routes, steam iron a few, feederisation of things like 322 and 306
* Keep buses running in straight lines
* Cut Maroon CityGlider and other obvious waste

[SurfRail]

Good move.

Rail integration needs to be pushed strongly.  Very half-hearted efforts to date.

[somebody]

Rail integration needs to be pushed strongly.  Very half-hearted efforts to date.

Where are you thinking of that this should be improved?  Strathpine, maybe.

[Gazza]

Western burbs too.
My local route...Hourly, connecting to a 15 min rail service. 
Needless to say I have to park and ride instead.

[Arnz]

The old TrainLink services in the outer suburbs and the coasts in the Pre-TransLink days were the only good examples of bus-rail integration.  They basically connected with almost every train.

To some extent however, up on the Sunshine Coast, Sunbus vehicles still mantains direct radio links with Landsborough and Nambour stations to ensure integration in case if one or the other is running late.   Depending on the driver runprints, in most cases, the buses stay back for at least up to 30 minutes to wait for a late train.

[SurfRail]

Rail integration needs to be pushed strongly.  Very half-hearted efforts to date.

Where are you thinking of that this should be improved?  Strathpine, maybe.

Heaps of places.  Mixtures of wayfinding signage, improved pedestrian pathways, better feeder services etc.

Ferny Grove
Mitchelton
Alderley
Windsor
Sandgate
Wynnum Central
Murrarie
Morningside
Altandi
Coopers Plains
Toowong
Indooroopilly
Corinda
Darra

to name some...

[somebody]

I'd disagree with Alderley and Windsor absolutely.

[#Metro]

What needs to be fixed on trains?

1. Frequency
2. Span
3. Integration

This thread is mostly about BT buses though, not trains.

[techblitz]

I'd disagree with Alderley and Windsor absolutely.

you need to elaborate more on what you disagree with simon?

ageee/disagree statements with no explanation is well.........

Yes windsor/alderley have great feeder services 345/77 etc etc however surfrail also stated improved wayfinding signage,and pedestrian pathways could be enhanced at the locations he listed to better direct connecting passengers.

eg: mitchelton station could do with a decent bus connection map at the station outlining the decent amount of services passing through its vicinity on blackwood st eg: 362,GCL,390.

[Gazza]

you need to elaborate more on what you disagree with simon?

Because Windsor is northern Busway, and Alderley is on the 385 345.

[somebody]

Alderley is on the 345.

The notion of feeder services at Windsor or Alderley would save negative $ because of the fares deterred by such an arrangement.

Is that better?

[techblitz]

For me i think the priority should be to rework all current hourly/half hourly bus routes to better connect with the train services.Once the review is completed then look at increasing frequency if possible/feasible on these non frequent bus routes.
The adjustments that were made to hornibrook services @ petrie/sandgate stations really push the importance of great connecting services and those changes are to be applauded. Now it is up to the bus services servicing ipswich area station to carry on the trend. I notice the 526 has a good connection with redbank station.

[techblitz]

Needed @ every station with a bus connection

[Golliwog]

On the Ferny Grove line I'd add Grovely. The 398 stops right out front on Dawson Pde. The 398 itself could do with an upgrade in frequency, and also perhaps a slightly more direct route. The twisty bit between Patricks Rd and FG station isn't particularly attractive for those who don't live along there.

I'm sort of inclined to say that I think there are improvements to be made at Alderley and Windsor though. Should there be a route specifically to feed the station, probably not, but they certainly need improvements to the integration between the two. Just because you catch a 345 from Aspley, doesn't mean you want to go to the CBD. I'd also add that if you were going to set up a decent feeder service through the Grange, Wilston and Alderley would make two good end points for such a route given they allow interchange to both rail and BUZ. Though doubt such a route would be a priority for now.

[SurfRail]

I'd disagree with Alderley and Windsor absolutely.

Depends on what you mean.  I am not proposing for instance to cut the 345 off at Alderley just to feed the railway.  What I am talking about is optimising the timetable to orient around the railway, because it is the main other service of significance (and comparable frequency) that it happens to intersect.  What I am talking about is massively improving the wayfinding signage and bus stop placement/accessibility so people know they can transfer to a frequent bus to Aspley there easily.

Ditto with Windsor - the outbound stop is OK, but the inbound stop is awful.

[SurfRail]

Needed @ every station with a bus connection

And perhaps more importantly an actual map of where the services go, and not just a vector diagram or a cartoon scribble - something with actual cartography underneath it.

[somebody]

Depends on what you mean.  I am not proposing for instance to cut the 345 off at Alderley just to feed the railway. 

Phew!

[SurfRail]

I think it would be instructive if somebody sat down and actually drew a very basic CFN map.  Even just what they consider should be the main radial routes.

I am actually doing up a "complete" map for the Gold Coast which is partly modelled on the work which was done for Canberra a few years ago (eg break-down into"rapid", "local" and "peak" routes - in my case the peak ones are just the theme park and after-dark services - and colour code accordingly).  I've got a sketch done, will eventually work it into Google Maps. 

[Gazza]

And to be clear, I wouldn't advocate that either.

Is there a rough line you could draw on each rail line, where beyond a certain point you run routes to feed rather than parallel?

On the Ipswich line, you would say that Toowong is too close to the city to feederise routes, but at the same time Oxley and Darra are well and truly in the territory of feeding.

PS, I think all "welfare" routes are acceptable to turn into feeders, generally.

Surfrail, I did that northside Grid a while back...

[Golliwog]

Northside grid thread here: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7051

[Gazza]

Will concede the 325 (purple shown on my map) would follow simons proposal in the last media release and go via Chermside.

[SurfRail]

Is there a rough line you could draw on each rail line, where beyond a certain point you run routes to feed rather than parallel?

For my money, in the BCC area:

Beenleigh - arguably Coopers Plains.  South of here you have BUZ routes which intersect stations or are in locations no good for bus interchange, north of here (except for Yeerongpilly) interchanging is again largely impossible or it is too close.

Ferny Grove - probably no point having any feeders further in than Mitchelton.

Shorncliffe - Little opportunity for interchange on the Shorncliffe line beyond Sandgate, but it can be worked harder. 

Caboolture - Toombul and Carseldine.  Other stations are on or near BUZ routes, or likely future BUZ routes, or in the middle of nowhere (eg Sunshine).  Northgate would need serious work or big diversions to become an interchange of any kind other than train-train.

Cleveland - Morningside.

Doomben - Doomben itself (only worthwhile if the trains actually exist meaningfully).

Ipswich/Richlands - Indooroopilly.  Biggest muck-up in living memory, even worse than Darra and Oxley combined IMHO.

Surfrail, I did that northside Grid a while back...

And a fine piece of work it was.

The southside will be a tad more interesting to work out with all those forests and mountains in the way, but not impossible.

[Gazza]

I remember making a start on the southside, but it is a bit more difficult (not a tidy grid like the Northside)
I think on the Southside the end result will be a lot more radial, with not as many cross town routes, because the opportunities aren't there.

[HappyTrainGuy]

RUN BUSES ON SUNDAYS AND AFTER 5PM!!!!!
Have more major direct routes eg strathpine to Sandgate instead of touring extra zones for a faster trip. Consider a 30 minute frequencies. 326/327/338/357/359 get yo sh%t together! Extend the 333 to aspley interchange via geebung station.

[ozbob]

Western burbs too.
My local route...Hourly, connecting to a 15 min rail service. 
Needless to say I have to park and ride instead.

Could be better but at least if the bus misses a connection it is a short wait.  Not the case in many other places on the network ...

[#Metro]

I think we need a Google Earth reference masterfile file with colour and line width routes inside them containing all BT bus routes. This is quite a task given that 220 routes are make up the BT network, but I am happy to do an allocation of numbers (100-150 or whatever) and pass the file on if that works.

What do people think of the value of this?

[#Metro]

Also, last night I was out and noticed a lot of southside buses terminating in Ballow and Warner Street in the Valley. It got me thinking that there may be value in amalgamating these bus routes so that they continue on to the northside.

[somebody]

Isn't there a .kmz file which includes basically that - a bit out of date now, but if you would like to update it, don't let me stop you.

Not sure if this is still available on the web though.

[#Metro]

Where is this file? I think a bus network masterfile would be very valuable to RAILBOT.

[aldonius]

This is what I think Simon is referring to here (dropbox link).
As noted, it's getting on quite a bit now, but it's still reasonably useful.

[SurfRail]

^ I'm the author of that file, but I lost the data some time ago and haven't been maintaining it in over a year. 

Anybody - feel free to use whatever version you can find to your heart's desire.

I am working up a Gold Coast one, but it won't plot bus stops - too difficult to do and too time-consuming.

[BrizCommuter]

Ferny Grove - probably no point having any feeders further in than Mitchelton.

What about using Enoggera's white elephant bus interchange?

[Golliwog]

Ferny Grove - probably no point having any feeders further in than Mitchelton.

What about using Enoggera's white elephant bus interchange?

I can see merit in using it to some degree now, but they do need to improve services before that. I also don't think it push for services terminating in it. Though if you broke route 360 and ran it at a decent frequency Mitchelton-Everton Hills-Enoggera you might get some decent usage.

Though in the long term if Trouts Rd ever goes ahead I think that will certainly consign that interchange to being a white elephant.

[BrizCommuter]

Ferny Grove - probably no point having any feeders further in than Mitchelton.

What about using Enoggera's white elephant bus interchange?

I can see merit in using it to some degree now, but they do need to improve services before that. I also don't think it push for services terminating in it. Though if you broke route 360 and ran it at a decent frequency Mitchelton-Everton Hills-Enoggera you might get some decent usage.

Though in the long term if Trouts Rd ever goes ahead I think that will certainly consign that interchange to being a white elephant.

The problem that BrizCommuter can see, is most of the express buses that turn at Enoggera/Wardell towards Everton Park and beyond have very favourable journey times compared to the train. Thus if these were (day I say it) cut back from the CBD to Enoggera, overall journey times could increase by approx. 5 mins, the time allowed for the change.

Times for pm peak (5pm ish):

357/9 Roma St - Enoggera = 16mins
357/9 Ann/Edward - Enoggera = 22mins
FG Line Roma St - Enoggera = 21mins
FG Line Central - Enoggera = 17mins

Of course, the peak service to Enoggera would need to be significantly improved. The 20 min+ pm peak gaps currently make use of the Enoggera interchange somewhat off-putting.

[SurfRail]

What about using Enoggera's white elephant bus interchange?

It's not so much a white elephant - but it is an extinct variety.  Back in the day, it was used quite extensively, but back then they were a lot more oriented on trunk and feeder routes.  What I think should happen is for some kind of direct pathway to be constructed between the Wardell St express stops and the station platform - the interchange is pretty much defunct.

(A similar pathway really needs to be built between Toombul rail station overpass and the Toombul bus station - current arrangements are rather poor.)

[HappyTrainGuy]

Similar to Toowong but a tad bit longer would be good.

[Golliwog]

Ferny Grove - probably no point having any feeders further in than Mitchelton.

What about using Enoggera's white elephant bus interchange?

I can see merit in using it to some degree now, but they do need to improve services before that. I also don't think it push for services terminating in it. Though if you broke route 360 and ran it at a decent frequency Mitchelton-Everton Hills-Enoggera you might get some decent usage.

Though in the long term if Trouts Rd ever goes ahead I think that will certainly consign that interchange to being a white elephant.

The problem that BrizCommuter can see, is most of the express buses that turn at Enoggera/Wardell towards Everton Park and beyond have very favourable journey times compared to the train. Thus if these were (day I say it) cut back from the CBD to Enoggera, overall journey times could increase by approx. 5 mins, the time allowed for the change.

Times for pm peak (5pm ish):

357/9 Roma St - Enoggera = 16mins
357/9 Ann/Edward - Enoggera = 22mins
FG Line Roma St - Enoggera = 21mins
FG Line Central - Enoggera = 17mins

Of course, the peak service to Enoggera would need to be significantly improved. The 20 min+ pm peak gaps currently make use of the Enoggera interchange somewhat off-putting.

Well with bus reliability being higher than rail, why would you use the train? 

I think in general the frequency needs to be improved to something consistent. Theres no point having 2 trains 5 minutes apart if either side there are gaps of 20+ minutes (in this case this is the 3.44 and 3.49 ex-Park Rd services to FG).

[#Metro]

The problem that BrizCommuter can see, is most of the express buses that turn at Enoggera/Wardell towards Everton Park and beyond have very favourable journey times compared to the train. Thus if these were (day I say it) cut back from the CBD to Enoggera, overall journey times could increase by approx. 5 mins, the time allowed for the change.

You haven't factored in the fact that buses can run at higher frequency and cut waiting time when made shorter. The comparison should include waiting time plus it should be against the improved higher frequency bus, not the status quo.