POLL: Truncate the 66?

[Mr X]

Every time I have used the 66 from Woolloongabba -> Cultural Centre (and I did so many times), patronage was rather poor. Just saying.

[Gazza]

And vice versa that the route is as barren as you say it is south of Roma St 

Ever used it?

I've posted pics of it on the RBoT FB page last year since you were banging on about it then:
They were all taken after leaving KGS, going southbound:

[somebody]

Even those pics show several empty seats.

[#Metro]

Well I have to say that while I am glad it is not me being fried this evening, I will say that ^^^ is a very mean. It is OK to have different ideas and the whole idea is that we debate them because that is the whole purpose of a forum. So what if 99% of people disagree with Simon's proposal, we should be happy that people have different ideas and that the forum isn't a monoculture.

Thank you Simon for putting this idea up, even though I may not agree with it.

[somebody]

Pretty much exactly what I was talking about HERE when I said:

As I was waiting for a train in the city after coming through the Gabba yesterday, I was just thinking about the routing of services from the southside. If they've got route 66, the purpose of which as I understand it is to be a distributor service along the inner section of the busway between the Gabba and RBH, I really think more of the routes that enter the busway at the Gabba shouldn't stay on it through Mater Hill and South Bank. I would support running most if not all of them via the CC bridge, which would help justify putting buslanes on the CC bridge.

No, you were proposing to move the more minor routes to the Captain Cook Bridge, which is IMO, bum about.

[Gazza]

I will say that ^^^ is a very mean.

Yelling at people in ALL CAPS is perfectly ok though....

[techblitz]

nice pics gazza

ive had similar experiences with the 66 going to gabba after kgs.Packed to the rafters especially from as early as 2.30 right up to 6pm

the other way at pm peak however is a different story.Only ever 5 or so people on the bus from gabba to cultural.

Sorry but i cannot see this bus route getting adjusted due to the good southbound pax usage to the gabba in the pm peak.Ive never used this bus route in the morning peak so feel free to enlighten us anyone:)

[Golliwog]

Pretty much exactly what I was talking about HERE when I said:

As I was waiting for a train in the city after coming through the Gabba yesterday, I was just thinking about the routing of services from the southside. If they've got route 66, the purpose of which as I understand it is to be a distributor service along the inner section of the busway between the Gabba and RBH, I really think more of the routes that enter the busway at the Gabba shouldn't stay on it through Mater Hill and South Bank. I would support running most if not all of them via the CC bridge, which would help justify putting buslanes on the CC bridge.

No, you were proposing to move the more minor routes to the Captain Cook Bridge, which is IMO, bum about.

I never specified routes. Achiruel did, but in my comment after that, I specifically highlighted routes 100 and 200. Perhaps I should have been clearer in the OP.

[techblitz]

im going to assume that the new 340 gabba to kgs and vice versa will affect some of the 66 passenger numbers due to the shortcut over the ccook bridge. In pm peak a fair amount of pax disembark at the gabba.

Sidenote....66 roma st to rbwh would surely take the cake as one of the shortest (along with route 29) bus routes??

[HappyTrainGuy]

That new route from Bridgeman downs to carseldine would be shorter.

[#Metro]

Yelling at people in ALL CAPS is perfectly ok though....

Doesn't change the fact that your posting that was very mean sprited and inappropriate that image. Perhaps you should listen to my feedback? Perhaps you should delete it pronto huh? It should not have been created and is very disrespectful, adds nothing to the debate and belittles a person rather than explore the issues, regardless of the merits or contents of Simon's proposal. We all need to feel that we can make proposals without fearing having images like that put up.

We are allowed to be wrong or have ideas that others' don't appreciate being discussed.

[Gazza]

Sidenote....66 roma st to rbwh would surely take the cake as one of the shortest (along with route 29) bus routes??

Because the implication is that it would be connected to the 393, so it becomes longer then.

I'm guessing this poll is a roundabout way of saying " re extend the 393 and delete the 66 "

[SurfRail]

I'm wondering if we even need to be suggesting specific solutions to BCC area bus issues. 

The network is such a bloody medusa's head that you can't conceivably pick out things in isolation - all we can really do is point to obvious and persistent problems (eg QUTKG overloading, Sir Fred Schonnel Drive, absence of good span of hours/frequency in obvious spots like Bulimba).

Emphasis needs to be on a complete redesign.  It's been over a decade now, and the last one pre-dated TransLink's existence.  This should include stop placement as well - it needs to be something on the scale of the QR timetable reviews, maybe implemented region by region over 2 years (ie every 6 months).

[ozbob]

Needs to be redone from scratch agreed ... but I expect not much chance of that with blue in the blue corner, and blue in the red corner ... 

[#Metro]

The network is such a bloody medusa's head that you can't conceivably pick out things in isolation - all we can really do is point to obvious and persistent problems (eg QUTKG overloading, Sir Fred Schonnel Drive, absence of good span of hours/frequency in obvious spots like Bulimba).

Emphasis needs to be on a complete redesign.  It's been over a decade now, and the last one pre-dated TransLink's existence.  This should include stop placement as well - it needs to be something on the scale of the QR timetable reviews, maybe implemented region by region over 2 years (ie every 6 months).

I think we can do a decent discussion on this - clearly BT and TL aren't going to do it, it will be a big task no doubt, but perhaps we can agree on some basic principles before we take on such a task. How should the BT bus network be redesigned? What should be added and what should be cut?

[somebody]

Pretty much exactly what I was talking about HERE when I said:

Ok, fair enough.

With the 100, to bypass Jurgens St IMO it would need to bypass W'Gabba outbound.

With the 200, well O-C Rd is a mess.  Let me just say that.

A 210 BUZ would logically improve things at W'Gabba, if the above routes are to be improved.

Well I have to say that while I am glad it is not me being fried this evening, I will say that ^^^ is a very mean. It is OK to have different ideas and the whole idea is that we debate them because that is the whole purpose of a forum. So what if 99% of people disagree with Simon's proposal, we should be happy that people have different ideas and that the forum isn't a monoculture.

Thank you Simon for putting this idea up, even though I may not agree with it.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't waste your time, TT.  Gazza has little understanding of the bus system's issues nor interest in improving it.  His posts only add negative value.

I'm wondering if we even need to be suggesting specific solutions to BCC area bus issues. 

The network is such a bloody medusa's head that you can't conceivably pick out things in isolation - all we can really do is point to obvious and persistent problems (eg QUTKG overloading, Sir Fred Schonnel Drive, absence of good span of hours/frequency in obvious spots like Bulimba).

Emphasis needs to be on a complete redesign.  It's been over a decade now, and the last one pre-dated TransLink's existence.  This should include stop placement as well - it needs to be something on the scale of the QR timetable reviews, maybe implemented region by region over 2 years (ie every 6 months).

A valid point.  However, legislation needs to be changed to achieve this unless (or perhaps even if) there is to be a complete state takeover of BT.

Focusing on solutions we might also need to talk about the Melbourne St portal's capacity - solutions are possible, they just choose not to implement them.

[Gazza]

Quite frankly, I wouldn't waste your time, TT.  Gazza has little understanding of the bus system's issues nor interest in improving it.  His posts only add negative value.

Incorrect.

I've drawn up a few part network plans and made posts on the matter, written to TL/MPs on issues so Im very much interested in in fixing the network.
I think it's pretty clear what is wrong with the network... Plenty of good posts by Surfrail, htg etc that hit the nail on the head.... Less duplication, straighter routes, feed rail, less routes into the cbd (interchange instead), cross town routes. Etc.

[somebody]

So a rail feeder into a 2/hr train service would get more patronage overall or per service-km than a direct into the CBD route? 

[Gazza]

Nah because the lack of excessive bus routes to the CBD that soak up money pays for increased rail frequency. It's a paradigm shift and the money is reallocated.
I think surely by 2016, when MBRL is open and that line has 4tph off peak (Along with FG) then that can trigger a lot of changes on the Northside for instance.

[Arnz]

It's likely that in off-peak/weekends that the MBRL will be 2TPH along with 2TPH ex-Caboolture to form 4TPH off-peak from Petrie to Virginia.  The Petrie bridge is gonna get busier, that's assuming Newman and co cut out the third bridge triplication.

Although with 4TPH Petrie to Virginia, Gazza is right to some extent, feeders to a 4TPH service to and/from busy stations on the Virginia-Petrie stretch on the Northside would be of value.

[somebody]

The BUZ services largely hold their own.  It is the feeder services e.g. 101 which suck up the cash.

[Gazza]

101 is a welfare route posing as a feeder though (Hourly frequency), so yes, indeed it sucks up cash.

[somebody]

What is your alternate example?  515?

[Gazza]

The 515 is a good example of an effective route IMO. Decent frequency and span, and performs multiple functions....You can use it to get to the station, but it hits useful destinations too and performs a good local function.

[somebody]

I would call it a through route for the Ipswich CBD.  FWIW.

I'd like to see stats on how many connect to rail from it.  I expect it isn't particularly high.

[somebody]

Nah because the lack of excessive bus routes to the CBD that soak up money pays for increased rail frequency. It's a paradigm shift and the money is reallocated.
I think surely by 2016, when MBRL is open and that line has 4tph off peak (Along with FG) then that can trigger a lot of changes on the Northside for instance.

I don't believe it's about the money which restricts rail services.  Perception of the money is a factor.  Culture is another, e.g. Suggestions to have 4tph on the Caboolture line north of Northgate are claimed to be impossible.

[Arnz]

Nah because the lack of excessive bus routes to the CBD that soak up money pays for increased rail frequency. It's a paradigm shift and the money is reallocated.
I think surely by 2016, when MBRL is open and that line has 4tph off peak (Along with FG) then that can trigger a lot of changes on the Northside for instance.

I don't believe it's about the money which restricts rail services.  Perception of the money is a factor.  Culture is another, e.g. Suggestions to have 4tph on the Caboolture line north of Northgate are claimed to be impossible.

Until Kippa Ring comes online.. assuming it does get built.

[somebody]

Because that will make a huge difference?  I guess not needing to put up with the terrible track arrangements for a Petrie turnback is an issue which will, by default, be solved by Kippa-Ring.

[HappyTrainGuy]

In terms of paths, Nambour restrictions (single track, peak hour restrictions, time to travel Nambour-Petrie), routing and so forth between revenue, freight and empty movements then yes.

edit clarity.

[somebody]

In terms of paths, Nambour restrictions (single track, peak hour restrictions, time to travel Nambour-Petrie), routing and so forth yes.

Care to amplify that?  Every station on the Sunshine Coast line has two tracks, at least as far as Nambour.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I've been over this before re Petrie issues on the current infrastructure.

You might want to check up on how many platforms trains actually use on the NCL. Freight trains heading north leave on fixed assigned paths so they can fit seemlessly into the Nambour slots with minimal disruption to the network. As it is Caboolture trains are already routed onto the subs (Bowen Hills-Northgate), they (CAB) are sometimes held at Lawnton, Petrie, Northgate and Mayne to allow the freighters/traveltrains to have minimal delay with the mess futher ahead. Its sort of the same when they are heading to Brisbane but its more relaxed once they get to Petrie. Just because you look at a Translink timetable and see the ability to run extra trains there isn't always the case. 4tph to Petrie is possible by itself if there was no freight/other movements. Add in the stuff the public doesn't see and it gets bloody difficult to keep it running to a fixed timetable on the current infrastructure. The unseen are things such as driver training, freight paths, test trains which can be many things like trains going for mtce/after mtce tests/refurbs/fault finding/fault checking etc, rollingstock positioning, late running passenger trains, late running freight trains and so on.

[somebody]

As it is Caboolture trains are already routed onto the subs (Bowen Hills-Northgate),

What?  That's against sectorisation.  If that is acceptable, why don't we have Richlands-Shorncliffe.

[HappyTrainGuy]

What?  That's against sectorisation.  If that is acceptable, why don't we have Richlands-Shorncliffe.

Oh please 

A couple movements doesn't mean an entire line should pop up out of nowhere and cause more conflicts. If that was the case close Tennyson to all passenger traffic. Any track faults on the Beenleigh/Gold Coast line should terminate at Yeerongpilly and passengers get on a replacment bus.

[somebody]

Quite frankly, I wouldn't waste your time, TT.  Gazza has little understanding of the bus system's issues nor interest in improving it.  His posts only add negative value.

Incorrect.

I've drawn up a few part network plans and made posts on the matter, written to TL/MPs on issues so Im very much interested in in fixing the network.
I think it's pretty clear what is wrong with the network... Plenty of good posts by Surfrail, htg etc that hit the nail on the head.... Less duplication, straighter routes, feed rail, less routes into the cbd (interchange instead), cross town routes. Etc.

What is positively stupid is insisting on a route which duplicates numerous already existing routes and sucks up cash while increasing congestion on an already over serviced and congested corridor.

At least HTG admits he isn't interested in buses which do not serve rail.

Nah because the lack of excessive bus routes to the CBD that soak up money pays for increased rail frequency. It's a paradigm shift and the money is reallocated.
I think surely by 2016, when MBRL is open and that line has 4tph off peak (Along with FG) then that can trigger a lot of changes on the Northside for instance.

Rhetorical question: Well what was the restriction to increasing train frequency before they had so many buses running into the city?

Answer: They didn't want to, and still don't.

[HappyTrainGuy]

At least HTG admits he isn't interested in buses which do not serve rail.

Where did I say that?

[Gazza]

Answer: They didn't want to, and still don't.

A day ago you just admitted you have no respect for TL, so why do you care what they want?

It should be about what RBoT wants to see.

[somebody]

^ Pretty stupid reply.

EDIT: To amplify this, TL/BT/Gazza do not consider the overall network, but only focus creating a bunch of lines.  Looked at in that way, the M10 in Sydney is a really good idea because it gets over 50 boardings per trip but it does not increase PT use overall.  It is fairly clear that patronage did not rise with the M10.  The southern part of the 66 is similar. /EDIT

At least HTG admits he isn't interested in buses which do not serve rail.

Where did I say that?

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=8177.msg97814#msg97814

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yes, I still agree with that in terms of the majority of the northside routes as buses are really stupid if they don't feed a rail connection considering the amount of interchange facilities, limited bus routes, grid layout for roads, railway lines available (Shorncliffe and Caboolture/soon to be Kippa Ring) and with the hourly bus frequencies. Take Chermside interchange. A buz and multiple various routes start there to go to the city and yet 3km from there is Zillmere station (only the 330 serves it - was every 30 mins now 15 mins), Aspley interchange (only the two hourly 336/337s, hourly 338 serve it... include the 340 if you like to walk), Geebung Station (only the two hourly 336/337s and hourly 325 serve it). Aspley int to Geebung station has no direct routes along Robinson Road with the fastest being the so called "Milk run service" taking 9 mins. Move along to Taigum. A stones throw away is Boondall Station yet it had the invisible 328/335/339 linking the two for years - now the hourly 325/328 linking the two that depart within 5 minutes of each other and arrive at Boondall at the same damn time grrrrrrrrr).

Eatons Hill/Albany Creek has the 338 linking to the northside and beyond via Strathpine yet its hourly, peak hour running is a mess with the 338 not ending up at Strathpine station, running hours are a joke, it's connection to Bracken Ridge/Sandgate is a real fkn joke (takes something like 2h30 mins to get to Brighton which is located in the same zone yet in 1h30mins-2hours you can get to the same destination if you travel through extra extra zones such as all the way to the city then train to Sandgate and bus to Brighton).

Bracken Ridge has the 327 feeding into Strathpine but it doesn't link to Strathpine during peak hour. It doesn't run on Sundays. Its hourly with poor running hours. There's the 326 that links it to Sandgate but it doesn't link into Strathpine along with that being a giant mess of a route combo if there ever was one.

The problem I really really have with the 335 was that prior to the timetable changes the 335/339 unoffically went/terminated at Boondall Station. When it arrived at Taigum it just changed the route number to 328. That meant stops between the Taigum interchange and the start of the 328 at Nudgee weren't included in the journey planner, any available maps or any stop locations despite there being bus stops with shelters, dedicated stopping bays for buses but without any bus timetables/signs for the invisible running 328 along beams road http://www.nearmap.com/?q=@-27.3526770,153.0562683&ll=-27.352677,153.056268&z=21&t=h&nmd=20091015

340 could easily be extended to Boondall Station via Roghan Road, 335 via Beams Road taking over the 328 through Nudgee Green like it previously did and delete the 328 route altogether. Cut the 335 at Chermside or merge it to the 325 route at Chermside and making the 325/335 half hourly. Fix up the 330 in Bracken Ridge in conjunction with the 326/327 being redesigned and build that proposed road linking Fitzgibbon to Bracken Ridge.

[techblitz]

good analysis htg and i shudder to think how long it took you

There seems to be a plethora of routes serving the northside which dont take full advantage of the decent busways and train stations. I like the 340 idea which gives a good frequent cross town service between caboolture and shorncliffe lines .Handy for pax wanting to transfer to caboolture line from shorncliffe line without having to go through northgate station.

[Mr X]

How about we scrap the 66, upgrade the frequency of the 393 and send it to Roma St/KGSBS? Win win

South of the Cultural Centre, the 66 has no real reason to exist. There are far more bus routes to choose from and more BUZ services- 100, 111, 120, 130, 140, 150, 180 so frequency really isn't an issue. It's just the damn bus jams that occur. Buses to Woolloongabba are less frequent but you still have BUZes 100 and 200 and also the 230/235, 17/5, 12/5, 110, 184/5 etc...

On the northside, a 66 is needed because frequency is shitter- main BUZes being 330 and 333 (340 skips cultural centre so not useful for someone there). Plus you have the horrid overcrowding from QUT Kelvin Grove.