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Online ozbob

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Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« on: June 18, 2012, 11:27:38 AM »
Been a while since we looked at the list of ' half-baked ' projects

Any more good examples?

Half baked = poorly developed, poorly implemented or carried out, insufficiently thought out, ill-conceived ...

Media release 20 May 2011

SEQ: Recent rail transport projects 'half baked'

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has called for a complete review of how rail based transport projects are cast in south-east Queensland.  A series of blunders with recent projects is just adding exponentially to long term costs.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"A number of recent rail transport projects in south-east have been partially botched fundamentally as a result of poor project design. Here are some examples."

"Oxley railway station is presently receiving a cosmetic tart-up. A failure to build the fourth platform at Oxley as part of the Corinda to Darra track amplification project, coupled with a failure to electrify fully the up suburban line (the 'freight line') is already causing considerable conflicts between freight trains and suburban services (1).  In many cases freight trains are not using the 'freight' line but are continuing to use the main lines, this further confirms the non-utility of the present track configuration from Corinda through to Darra West."

"The subway at Oxley railway station has had recent cosmetic improvements (2). Cracks in the wall have been mortared over but water seepage continues. It is highly likely that expensive mitigation works will be needed when the opportunity to properly fix the structural issues was passed over during recent construction of platform 3 at Oxley during the track amplification project. Initial construction of Oxley bus stop B was botched (3), and lay idle whilst authorities feuded over who was responsible.  It finally got fixed up but at great cost and inconvenience to all.  Surely it is better to do  projects right from the outset?"

"There is a requirement for public transport infrastructure to be compliant for disabled access.  Platforms at Fortitude Valley, Indooroopilly, Oxley and Darra are too low.  These platforms could have been built at a better height during recent construction works with a bit more foresight.  Millions of dollars will be required to come back and fix these oversights down the track."

"The truncation of the track amplification project on the Sunshine Coast line at Beerburrum, rather than Landsborough as originally planned is now having very serious repercussions in the lack of train capacity (4).  Government rhetoric for transport solutions such as detailed in the draft Connecting SEQ 2031 document is simply not being matched by rational infrastructure development."

"Present planning for the Springfield railway line does not include the construction of the Ellen Grove station as part of the initial construction (5).  This station is going to be built later, after the railway is actually operating as far as we are aware.  Again, this is just going to add excessive costs in the longer term to come back and build it.  It is far preferable to build the railway station at Ellen Grove as a 'greenfield' project, rather than around a busy operating railway in a few more years.  In fact a staged expansion of the Springfield railway to first Ellen Grove and then Springfield Central would see the line operating earlier."

"It is not difficult to understand why we are concerned.  Surely it is better to get these expensive projects right first time?"

References:

1. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=944.msg54671#msg54671

2. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=4547.msg54146#msg54146

3. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3294.msg19516#msg19516

4. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5377.0

5. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3940.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
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somebody

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 11:38:32 AM »
#1: stopping duplication at Beerburrum
#2: Robina yard!  Criminal to expand stabling into Redbank while this is left as is.
#3: Arrangements between Darra and Wacol.  Fly-under could have gone under the up.  Missing crossover on the east side of the up sub loop.
#4: Petrie missing crossover
#5: Northgate outbound via #3 wrong roading requirement
#6: Coopers Plains missing crossover
#7: Cleveland line precision crosses.

colinw

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 11:47:07 AM »
  • Park Road Platform #4.  Still not fixed after how long?
  • Salisbury to Kuraby Triplication. $200 million+, no extra services, trains several minutes slower to the city than when I moved to the area. (See also Simon's #6 above)
  • Corinda - Darra & Richlands line. Hundreds of millions for a pathetic 2TPH service to Richlands. Missing infrastructure at Oxley - Darra. Freight vs. Pax conflicts due to poorly thought out junction and half baked non-electrified freight line.
  • Not public transport, but: Acacia Ridge to Bromelton dual gauge. Massive white elephant, not finished after over 3 years. Dual gauge turnouts still sitting next to the line at Greenbank after 2 and a half years (yes, I checked using Nearmap). What exactly was the point of this project?
  • Station upgrades without building high level platforms. (Darra, Indooroopilly, several others)
  • Ferny Grove duplication, but where's the full time 4TPH service?
  • Northern busway! Nothing wrong with the busway bit, but the road section with missing bus lanes is a worry

Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 11:56:16 AM »

Ferny Grove duplication, but where's the full time 4TPH service?


Or where is the improved peak service, which was reason for the duplication in the first place!

Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 12:00:46 PM »
#1: stopping duplication at Beerburrum
#2: Robina yard!  Criminal to expand stabling into Redbank while this is left as is.
#3: Arrangements between Darra and Wacol.  Fly-under could have gone under the up.  Missing crossover on the east side of the up sub loop.
#4: Petrie missing crossover
#5: Northgate outbound via #3 wrong roading requirement
#6: Coopers Plains missing crossover
#7: Cleveland line precision crosses.

hear, hear!
+1
Regards,
Fares_Fair


somebody

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 12:02:03 PM »
  • Park Road Platform #4.  Still not fixed after how long?
Is it ever going to be?  I'd say it will remain in the too hard basket forever.

Offline Golliwog

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 12:16:46 PM »
  • Park Road Platform #4.  Still not fixed after how long?
Is it ever going to be?  I'd say it will remain in the too hard basket forever.
My gut feeling on the matter is if they're going to play around with P4 at Park Rd, they should be doing it at the same time that they raise the platforms to full height on all 4, which you would also want to take account of any possible movement of the platforms due to the eventual plan/need to grade seperate the Park Rd junction.
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colinw

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2012, 12:18:16 PM »
  • Park Road Platform #4.  Still not fixed after how long?
Is it ever going to be?  I'd say it will remain in the too hard basket forever.
My gut feeling on the matter is if they're going to play around with P4 at Park Rd, they should be doing it at the same time that they raise the platforms to full height on all 4, which you would also want to take account of any possible movement of the platforms due to the eventual plan/need to grade seperate the Park Rd junction.

Then use it to terminate that stupid XPT out of the city!

Alternatively, build platform #4 at South Brisbane, call it "South Brisbane Interstate", and get the slug off the Merivale Bridge in peak.

Online ozbob

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2012, 12:22:04 PM »
Do other states get it as wrong as Queensland?

It is tragic!!

I thought the XPT was being moved to a more amenable time slot as part of the ' phase two timetable process '.  Maybe that has drifted out to 2031 as well.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 12:28:48 PM by ozbob »
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colinw

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2012, 12:26:01 PM »
Do other states get it as wrong as Queensland?

It is tragic!!

Only South Australia.

somebody

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2012, 12:29:02 PM »
Until the Clearways plan, Cityrail did indeed do just as badly as QLD.

Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2012, 12:51:48 PM »
A friend went down to Melbourne last week to collect a car for their son (sorry everyone).
Anyway, they said how fantastic the V-line rail system was, even on a Sunday, with hourly services from Traralgon to the City.

They told me I would be impressed.

Not the first to tell me that, hey ozbob.  :-t

Cheers.
Regards,
Fares_Fair


Online ozbob

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2012, 01:08:18 PM »
A friend went down to Melbourne last week to collect a car for their son (sorry everyone).
Anyway, they said how fantastic the V-line rail system was, even on a Sunday, with hourly services from Traralgon to the City.

They told me I would be impressed.

Not the first to tell me that, hey ozbob.  :-t

Cheers.

Yes, it is good.  And still plenty of growth to come.   

Meanwhile, in the smart state we are all looking for a time machine to transport us to ..... 2031!
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colinw

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2012, 01:42:24 PM »
No, 2031 has been cancelled as a result of budget cuts.

The Commission of Inquiry is now working on the Council of Mayors' proposal to replace 2031 with some tinsel and a hover monorail.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 02:07:54 PM by colinw »

Online ozbob

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2012, 01:49:01 PM »
Gawd,

someone left a connecting SEQ 2031 glossy out in the rain, it took so long to fake it, all we do is half-bake it, and all the red ink is running down ...
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Offline triplethree

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2012, 01:55:18 PM »
Petty, I know, but the one-way escalators at Roma Street (rail and busway) and Fortitude Valley always make me laugh. Obviously the station design teams didn't realise that people need to both enter AND leave the station. I've never, ever seen escalators that only travel in one direction anywhere else.
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Offline Stillwater

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2012, 01:56:34 PM »
 :-r  :-r oh no!

Offline Golliwog

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2012, 01:58:18 PM »
Petty, I know, but the one-way escalators at Roma Street (rail and busway) and Fortitude Valley always make me laugh. Obviously the station design teams didn't realise that people need to both enter AND leave the station. I've never, ever seen escalators that only travel in one direction anywhere else.
IIRC, at least one of the London Tube stations had 3 escalators, one for each direction and the 3rd for the peak direction. So this is just a cheap, bastardised version of something like that.

For what it's worth, the pedestrian overpass across the road outside Roma St has only 1 escalator as well.
There is no silver bullet… but there is silver buckshot.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Offline Stillwater

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2012, 02:07:13 PM »

Connectin’ Twenty-Thirty-One is fading in the sun
All the hopes of ages future crumbling down....
Labor left its hopes on it to reign
I don't think that I can take it
'cause it took so long to make it
And I'll never have that policy again
Oh, no!

Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2012, 02:12:25 PM »
Transport movies we don't want to see.

2016 - A bridge too far.
Author: X River Rail

2031 - Tomorrow never comes.
Author: Labor Invain
Regards,
Fares_Fair


colinw

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2012, 02:14:44 PM »
I'm worried about "Clem7: The Sequel".

Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2012, 02:18:19 PM »
I'm worried about "Clem7: The Sequel".

Is that the one by L.N. Policy and Rob Toll?
Maybe was Q. Work
Regards,
Fares_Fair


somebody

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2012, 02:28:14 PM »
Then use it to terminate that stupid XPT out of the city!

Alternatively, build platform #4 at South Brisbane, call it "South Brisbane Interstate", and get the slug off the Merivale Bridge in peak.
Yes, I can't imagine the cost to build and maintain all that DG pointwork around Roma St west would look very pretty.  South Brisbane termination would have made far more sense.  Salisbury MAY have been even better.

Petty, I know, but the one-way escalators at Roma Street (rail and busway) and Fortitude Valley always make me laugh. Obviously the station design teams didn't realise that people need to both enter AND leave the station. I've never, ever seen escalators that only travel in one direction anywhere else.
Hmm, neither can I.  I was going to say near Railway Square, but I'm not so sure now.

  • Station upgrades without building high level platforms. (Darra, Indooroopilly, several others)
Darra I'll accept, but we are being told it's unachievable at Indooroopilly and will never be done.  Not sure I'd argue with the experts on this point because it makes total sense - the distance to the platform could vary with speed when the suspension springs compress.

At Park Rd, #3 is bad enough.  I wouldn't want to think about #4.

Online ozbob

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2012, 03:03:16 PM »
Quote
we are being told it's unachievable at Indooroopilly and will never be done

Who has told you that?

I am not sure if you are aware that has already been one lot of track lowering at Indooroopilly post upgrade.
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somebody

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2012, 03:04:22 PM »
Quote
we are being told it's unachievable at Indooroopilly and will never be done

Who has told you that?

I am not sure if you are aware that has already been one lot of track lowering at Indooroopilly post upgrade.
Was mentioned at the timetable consultation.  I'm aware of the lowering.

Online mufreight

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2012, 07:47:36 PM »

Darra I'll accept, but we are being told it's unachievable at Indooroopilly and will never be done.  Not sure I'd argue with the experts on this point because it makes total sense - the distance to the platform could vary with speed when the suspension springs compress.


Sorry wrong, Indooroopilly can be raised despite the radius of the curve, your suggestion about the compression of the springs is simply so much fantasy,  air suspensions do not have that problem and in part that is why they have been used for the EMU/SMU/IMU fleet of rollingstock as it is a major advantage over compression leaf, coil or rubber cone springs.

Indooroopilly, Toowoong, Oxley, Darra and Fortitude Valley are just further examples of half baked one buttock thinking by the infrastructure planners.

somebody

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2012, 08:09:30 PM »
So then what is so hard about fixing up Park Rd #4?

Online mufreight

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2012, 08:06:18 AM »
Park Road platform four has a problen in that it has to allow for the standard gauge loading gauge, a partial solution there is to raise the platform to remove the vertical gap and by reducing the track speed around the curve through the platform for the standard gauge traffic which operates on spring suspensions, either leaf or coil rather than the air suspension systems on the QR electric rolling stock, any ng freight services that had to be operated through the platform would also be subject to a speed restriction.
The horozontal gap could be reduced fron the current 240 + mm to possibly 170mm which coupled with a platform surface level with the carriage floor heights would a considerable improvement over the present situation and render the platform usable for ng passenger services.

somebody

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2012, 08:57:45 AM »
Park Road platform four has a problen in that it has to allow for the standard gauge loading gauge, a partial solution there is to raise the platform to remove the vertical gap and by reducing the track speed around the curve through the platform for the standard gauge traffic which operates on spring suspensions, either leaf or coil rather than the air suspension systems on the QR electric rolling stock, any ng freight services that had to be operated through the platform would also be subject to a speed restriction.
The horozontal gap could be reduced fron the current 240 + mm to possibly 170mm which coupled with a platform surface level with the carriage floor heights would a considerable improvement over the present situation and render the platform usable for ng passenger services.
170mm is still a substantial horizontal gap.  I wonder what Cityrail have?

Offline HappyTrainGuy

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2012, 02:08:03 PM »
#1. Translink.

Re Brunswick Street. The escellators operate both ways depending on the time of day due to the limited space both on platform level and surface level ie building supports, facilities, emergency exits and so forth etc.
"What housing crisis?? There are plenty of free mobile apartments rolling around on the rails every day"

Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2012, 02:55:07 PM »
Looks like CRR will be added to this list!

Offline Fares_Fair

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2012, 03:06:14 PM »
Looks like CRR will be added to this list!

Respectfully disagree, it is a prudent interim proposal.
Lets wait and see what the Federal government response is, should be positive given the basis for the funds is essentially the same - barring the BCR change arisen from the freight path reduction.

It doesn't meet the 'half-baked' criteria IMHO.
Regards,
Fares_Fair


Offline SurfRail

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2012, 03:09:47 PM »
Looks like CRR will be added to this list!

I wouldn't say that.  Surface tracks and approach works can be done anytime without massive disruption.  The tunnels are a different proposition.

Different story with Darra - Corinda trackage, Darra layout etc, where a mistake would have to actually be corrected.  If there is a mistake here it is only in not ploughing on with the whole thing, as opposed to building something which will prejudice future operations.
Ride the G:

colinw

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2012, 03:24:42 PM »
Looks like CRR will be added to this list!

No, because the core CRR is the difficult to build bit which you have to get right or its useless.  The rest of it can roll out incrementally as it is needed & affordable.

I'd argue that the original CRR was "over baked". No point having the perfect solution if you can't accord it. That's like saying "I can't afford a (insert luxury car name), so I'm going to have nothing", when you could have afforded a Toyota.

As long as the core tunnel section is done properly, I don't much care whether the extra track to Salisbury, etc., doesn't get done until later.

As I've stated in other threads, the bit that actually worries me is the junction conflict at Mayne/Albion. That may well end up being a case of half baking, and I suspect may get rectified sooner rather than  later. But it will be called something else, and Newman will deny it is anything to do with CRR.

Online mufreight

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2012, 01:08:25 PM »
Park Road platform four has a problen in that it has to allow for the standard gauge loading gauge, a partial solution there is to raise the platform to remove the vertical gap and by reducing the track speed around the curve through the platform for the standard gauge traffic which operates on spring suspensions, either leaf or coil rather than the air suspension systems on the QR electric rolling stock, any ng freight services that had to be operated through the platform would also be subject to a speed restriction.
The horozontal gap could be reduced fron the current 240 + mm to possibly 170mm which coupled with a platform surface level with the carriage floor heights would a considerable improvement over the present situation and render the platform usable for ng passenger services.
170mm is still a substantial horizontal gap.  I wonder what Cityrail have?

It varies but there are places with a horozontal gap of 6 inches + but without any vertical difference.
Park Road platform 3 measured in one place has a vertical gap exceeding 14 inches and a horozontal gap exceeding 8 inches yet this platform remains in use.  Platform 4 I have never been able to measure but it must exceed the measurement for platform 3 to necessicitate it being gated off and taken out of service.

somebody

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2012, 01:22:07 PM »
I have certainly noticed that the gap at Park Rd #3 is very significant.  Interesting to have some figures on it.

Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2012, 05:03:33 PM »
Looks like CRR will be added to this list!

Respectfully disagree, it is a prudent interim proposal.
Lets wait and see what the Federal government response is, should be positive given the basis for the funds is essentially the same - barring the BCR change arisen from the freight path reduction.

It doesn't meet the 'half-baked' criteria IMHO.

Really, do how do you run 18tph+ Sunshine Coast/Caboolture/MBRL services along the Exhibition Loop to access CRR when it already has trains running along it every few minutes?

Offline Gazza

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2012, 06:35:31 PM »
Quote
when it already has trains running along it every few minutes?
But will the exhibition loop still need to have as many trains running around it because of RS and BH finishing services in a post CRR world?

Offline BrizCommuter

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2012, 08:15:34 PM »
Quote
when it already has trains running along it every few minutes?
But will the exhibition loop still need to have as many trains running around it because of RS and BH finishing services in a post CRR world?

The number of services still using the loop would be dependant on 1) provision of stabling elsewhere on the system 2) service provision on the mains and subs 3) timetabling of empty moves. We can only hazard a quess at the reality of the situation, but it is highly likely there will be enough services requiring use of the Exhibition Line to cause potential operational issues.

BrizCommuter would be very interested in seeing this "expert panel" review - but this being Queensland it will probably need a RTI request.

somebody

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Re: Half baked - things that could have been better ...
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2012, 08:51:50 AM »
Probably a panel of accountancy experts.

 

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