POLL: Northern Busway services after Windsor-Kedron opening

[SurfRail]

^ The "relic" they referred to is the cause of all of these discrepancies between bus and train journeys to the same locations - to ensure when integrated ticketing was introduced in 2004 that rail commuters would not experience significantly greater cost increases than other passengers.  Now no longer relevant, and needs to be fixed.

Could be worth a release on the subject when I have time.

[Set in train]

Looks like they updated http://translink.com.au/travel-information/service-updates/bulletin/1337059846 following my enquiry.

That is the rationale then behind the change from 2/3 to 3.

Thanks Bob, very interesting the changes and lack of usual PR spin using words such as 'relic' is good:

Now that route 303 is becoming a standard TransLink service, not a railbus train replacement, it will be rezoned to bring it in line with other bus services in the area such as route 302.

...

These stops are located in zone 3, but are currently zoned 2/3 as a relic of the pre-TransLink ticketing system.

Did your enquiry reveal why Route 303 is becoming a standard TransLink service and no longer a railbus train replacement?

[Golliwog]

^ The "relic" they referred to is the cause of all of these discrepancies between bus and train journeys to the same locations - to ensure when integrated ticketing was introduced in 2004 that rail commuters would not experience significantly greater cost increases than other passengers.  Now no longer relevant, and needs to be fixed.

Could be worth a release on the subject when I have time.

I think so too. Maybe mention some of the other boundaries that could also do with a tweaking. For instance rail to bus at Ferny Grove. The station is zone 3, but routes 367, 397, 398 treat Ferny Grove as zone 4 so anyone catching a bus to the station has to pay extra.

[ozbob]

@ Set in train - No other than that at --> http://translink.com.au/travel-information/service-updates/bulletin/1337059846

[achiruel]

Did your enquiry reveal why Route 303 is becoming a standard TransLink service and no longer a railbus train replacement?

Is there any difference as far as pax are concerned?  There was back in the days when QR season passes still existed, as these were accepted on the rail-bus but I'm not sure if their continues to be any other differences.
.

[aldonius]

I think so too. Maybe mention some of the other boundaries that could also do with a tweaking. For instance rail to bus at Ferny Grove. The station is zone 3, but routes 367, 397, 398 treat Ferny Grove as zone 4 so anyone catching a bus to the station has to pay extra.

How would you tweak it? AFAIK, technically Ferny Grove station should be zone 4. So you'd need to extend Zone 3 to cover the bus routes, or else make FG z4 (more expensive for everybody  )
As it is, if you do a bus-bus transfer you stay in z4, and if you get on the train Keperra is z3 anyway...
I guess for clarity, the case could be made for FG station & bus bays being 'officially' 3/4 - reflecting the situation on the ground.

[Set in train]

@ Set in train - No other than that at --> http://translink.com.au/travel-information/service-updates/bulletin/1337059846

Thanks Bob.

It is a shame the increasing prices, albeit a couple of stops. We've endured months of the mantra of 'cost of living' and yet this increase still happens.

Regular users are used to that price and now they will have to pay more. Regular users are working hard, busy in their own lives, all they see is an increased 'take' from their wallet.

[Golliwog]

I think so too. Maybe mention some of the other boundaries that could also do with a tweaking. For instance rail to bus at Ferny Grove. The station is zone 3, but routes 367, 397, 398 treat Ferny Grove as zone 4 so anyone catching a bus to the station has to pay extra.

How would you tweak it? AFAIK, technically Ferny Grove station should be zone 4. So you'd need to extend Zone 3 to cover the bus routes, or else make FG z4 (more expensive for everybody  )
As it is, if you do a bus-bus transfer you stay in z4, and if you get on the train Keperra is z3 anyway...
I guess for clarity, the case could be made for FG station & bus bays being 'officially' 3/4 - reflecting the situation on the ground.

On what technicality would it be zone 4? At the same time, if they're going to be tweaking some zone boundaries, it'd be a good time then to make any changes to fares (ie: what we've talked about a few times with the high 'flagfall' component of fares) so that people aren't too out of pocket if you increase the number of zones.

[aldonius]

Golliwog - take a look at the zone map. I have an older paper version, and it's really clear that there's this little stalactite of zone 3 extending out to FG. The online version doesn't do that so much - it has the end of the line firmly in zone 4!
And of course the buses are were and (probably) always will be zone 4.

[Golliwog]

Fair call. Never really looked to closely at one of those. By that map (and it's far from accurate, it shows Arana Hills Kmart as due north of Brookside, when it's much closer to due west) Keperra station would also be zone 4 and you could probably argue Grovely as the zone 3/4 boundary, though the 396/397/398 timetable shows both as clearly in zone 3. Route 367's map also clearly has the zone boundary marked as being at the intersection of Samford and Upper Kedron Roads. How odd.

[somebody]

340 is stopping at all 333 stops, except for Chermside interchange now?  Is that a mistake?
EDIT: Oh, but the 341 is still express between Chermside and RBH.

[SurfRail]

340 is stopping at all 333 stops, except for Chermside interchange now?  Is that a mistake?

No, it appears that was intended.  It basically doubles the frequency at the express stops.  I expect the 340 would be the better positioned out of the 330 and 340 to do this given the loadings.

It would also appear that every service (except for those travelling via Airport Link() can potentially use the stop at Truro St no matter whether they are coming from Lutwyche Station or from the surface, as buses can enter and exit from Lutwyche Road, and serve both the inbound and outbound stops, in both directions.

Does anybody know if bus lanes are actually going to be "turned on" when the busway opens?  On my trip up during the weekend I could see no indication that this was happening.  Looks like it is basically busway from the city to Federation Street, then a gap, then busway from Truro Street to Kedron Brook (busway is actually built as far as Somerset Road but only in use for northbound runs, with southbound runs entering at Stafford Road.

[somebody]

KGSBS stop 1D is to have 3 buses every 10 minutes in peak.  Be interesting to see if this results in congestion there.

[somebody]

340 is stopping at all 333 stops, except for Chermside interchange now?  Is that a mistake?

No, it appears that was intended.  It basically doubles the frequency at the express stops. 

Must say, I'm against this change.  If they needed to increase service at those stops they should have just increased the 333.

But then, as I have banged on about before, you have the issues with the stop arrangements at Chermside which mean through passengers use the 333 I/B, so perhaps it isn't the end of the world.

[achiruel]

KGSBS stop 1D is to have 3 buses every 10 minutes in peak.  Be interesting to see if this results in congestion there.

That's only 18 buses per hour.  Why would that cause issues?

[somebody]

KGSBS stop 1D is to have 3 buses every 10 minutes in peak.  Be interesting to see if this results in congestion there.

That's only 18 buses per hour.  Why would that cause issues?

Some think that you can't do more than 12 an hour.  If there aren't any issues, that will be debunked.

[Golliwog]

KGSBS stop 1D is to have 3 buses every 10 minutes in peak.  Be interesting to see if this results in congestion there.

That's only 18 buses per hour.  Why would that cause issues?

Some think that you can't do more than 12 an hour.  If there aren't any issues, that will be debunked.

Depends how poorly buses pulling in/out of 1D interact with those that may or may not be in 1C and 1E. If they can do it fairly independantly, then there shouldn't be an issue unless the traffic lights cause services to bunch.

[Golliwog]

New .pdf timetables are up.

[somebody]

New .pdf timetables are up.

Confirms that the 340 will indeed serve 333 stops between Chermside and RBH.  Errors are apparent on this timetable: Windsor Rail & Kedron North aren't noted as "340 only" stops.

Not particularly impressed with the 340, but it is to be thus.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Still think the 340buz funding would have been better to make the 325/335 both half hourly to give parts of the coridor a 15 min frequency.

[Golliwog]

New .pdf timetables are up.

Errors are apparent on this timetable: Windsor Rail & Kedron North aren't noted as "340 only" stops.

It wouldn't be so bad if the timetable actually had times for stops between Chermside and RBWH, so that you could see that the 340 did stop while the P341 didn't.

[STB]

Okay, my first thoughts is that the 308 is quite an unusual route, almost like it should be two separate routes as it services two completely different roads depending on if it's heading to Chermside or Toombul.

The 393 is getting more and more useless with it no longer going to Normanby, when they could've taken the opportunity and at least extended it for university semesters at the very minimum to Roma Street or KGSBS.  Also I'm a little confused on how it can do a loop around RBWH and back to Teneriffe, would've made more sense that it started and ended at RBWH and looped around the ferry terminal.

I'll be interested to see how students and hospital workers go with the adjustments to routes 330, 340 and 333, especially at the start of next semester in about a month's time.  At the moment the crowding has eased a bit with the 66 running more frequently but you still get occasions where it's almost impossible to board the first bus that turns up.  Guess it's a case of wait and see.

EDIT: Just a question to those who know the area better than I do, will the 329 be able to negotiate the Telegraph Rd crossing fine and still maintain the timetable?

[Golliwog]

I see your point on the new 308. It looks like they made it dual purpose, the connection between Chermside and Toombul (neither route should take longer than the other), as well as coverage of both Hamilton Rd and Rode Rd. I suppose it'll be a wait and see affair, though certainly promising to see that they've given it 1 loop every half hour. It's also something that can fairly easily be split into two routes at a latter date to give a run in both directions along both roads.

As for the 393, no idea where it's turning around (maybe at the half donut at QUT? Can that be accessed from the north?) but perhaps terminating at the ferry allows for more operational flexibility, ie: can be formed from 199 or Cityglider buses. Neither is particularly closer to the Bowen Hills depot though are they?

[achiruel]

As for the 393, no idea where it's turning around (maybe at the half donut at QUT? Can that be accessed from the north?) but perhaps terminating at the ferry allows for more operational flexibility, ie: can be formed from 199 or Cityglider buses. Neither is particularly closer to the Bowen Hills depot though are they?

Isn't the CityGlider a unique livery?  So I don't think 393 buses would be any use to it and vice-versa.

199 & 470 though perhaps, although I think most 470s come from Toowong.

Also: does anyone know why 393 doesn't use Folkestone St instead of Edmonstone Rd, or Skyring Tce instead of Commercial Rd?  It seems like it would make the route a few minutes shorter/faster.

[Golliwog]

I personally haven't seen a Cityglider run on a different route, though I think Otto said he has previously. I have however had one of the unique liveried Brisbane CBD Loop buses (the red livery) pick me up on route 362/385 before.

[somebody]

My only suggestion on the 393 is that there is no right turn arrow into Folkstone.  In the other direction, Folkstone isn't where the stop is, although I think it would be marginally better located there.

Not using Skyring Tce from Ann St is pretty stupid IMO, and another opportunity to fix it not taken.

No idea how it's turning around either, unless the map is wrong.

Still think the 340buz funding would have been better to make the 325/335 both half hourly to give parts of the coridor a 15 min frequency.

I think better to just have one route (325), and BUZ that.  Move the 335 to Webster and Hamilton and terminate at Chermside.  Then you can get rid of the dog leg from the 340.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Anything is better than a 340 buz to the city

[SurfRail]

Don't know why the 330 and 333 do not do what the 340 does, and why it is so difficult to add a stop at Parliament in both direction for these and the 88.

[somebody]

Don't know why the 330 and 333 do not do what the 340 does, and why it is so difficult to add a stop at Parliament in both direction for these and the 88.

Queens Wharf Rd is hardly a worthy stop location!

[SurfRail]

The road layout does not permit a better one.  Can't exit the expressway and turn right onto William Street at Margaret or Elizabeth St, and even if you could you can't turn right into the bus station from there.

So the alternative is just do nothing?

[achiruel]

My only suggestion on the 393 is that there is no right turn arrow into Folkstone.  In the other direction, Folkstone isn't where the stop is, although I think it would be marginally better located there.

I just looked at the 393 map again, and now it looks like it's using Cintra Rd in one direction (I assume towards RBWH, as the line seems to be on the northbound side of Abbotsford Rd for the Tenerrife direction).



WTF?

No idea how it's turning around either, unless the map is wrong.

I believe there's space to turnaround at the end of Commercial Rd - I haven't been there for a while but I'm pretty sure that's where the 470 used to turn.  I assume the 199 and Glider turn there too.

Look at the satellite map, I guess it makes sense not serving Skyring Tce right now - there's nothing there bar construction sites.  But I hope they change it when there's office blocks and apartment buildings along it.

[somebody]

I assume the 393 on Cintra Rd is a mistake.  The PDF doesn't show it.

The road layout does not permit a better one.  Can't exit the expressway and turn right onto William Street at Margaret or Elizabeth St, and even if you could you can't turn right into the bus station from there.

So the alternative is just do nothing?

No, the alternative is what I've banged on about before
- 340 into Cultural Centre
- 444 into QSBS B
- 88 to QUT KG via George St stops 108, 116 and Magistrates Lane stop 130.
- 300/301/306/322 to Parliament instead of the Cultural Centre.  If there is a need to connect Parliament and W'Gabba or W'Gabba and the CBD via the CCB, then extend there.

EDIT: And if you want to talk about insufficient capacity in the cultural centre, extending the 393 to Roma St and reducing the 66 will free up some capacity.
- And the 444 can access QSBS B via Skew St and Roma St Busway.

[achiruel]

No, the alternative is what I've banged on about before
- 340 into Cultural Centre
- 444 into QSBS B
- 88 to QUT KG via George St stops 108, 116 and Magistrates Lane stop 130.
- 300/301/306/322 to Parliament instead of the Cultural Centre.  If there is a need to connect Parliament and W'Gabba or W'Gabba and the CBD via the CCB, then extend there.

I don't like 340 to CC.  340 should terminate at Chermisde IMO.  I'm happy for it to continue as a BUZ though.  Is there some reason we can't have a BUZ that terminate at a major interchange?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Same. I'm all for 330/340 being buz routes but they shouldn't be going to the city. Redo the 111 into something similar to CityGlider; prepaid with services 10 mins all day, start culling routes at Interchanges/busway stations on the north/south sides, bring the 111 to the northside as a 333 replacement terminating at Aspley Interchange, cull the 330 at Chermside, extend the 333 north for the near by locals/areas that still have no services/railway station/new terminus at aspley interchange and adopt the 330 city leg express route RBWH-Chermside. Get the 340 off the main part of Gympie Road and put it along the sidestreet between the Aspley Tavern-Chermside Markets (To open it up and make it attractive for locals - Same deal with getting the 335 off Gympie Road around Chermside markets) and resume the normal route along Webster road. Cull the 326/327 from Geebung-Toombul. Rework the 326/327 Bracken Ridge-Sandgate-Taigum. Delete the 328 and simply extend the 340 to serve Fitzgibbon back into the Taigum interchange. Reroute the 336/337 along Zillmere road-Gympie Road/Maybe even cut if the local services around Chermside/Aspley were fixed up. Reroute the 335 down Ellison road/Murphy Road and cull at Chermside. Make the 335 2bph to make it a quick jump between Taigum interchange/Carseldine station and extend to Boondall Station (Live at Sandgate get on the 310 to the train station, jump on the train, connect to the 335/325 at Boondall and get off at Chermside) - The 335 can't even run on time between Taigum-Chermside as it is so god knows how its going to be when its extended to Sandgate.

The 'new service package' to me is pretty much smoke and mirrors distracting everyone from the real issue at hand - being their poor network design with lack of operating hours and frequency.

[somebody]

I don't like 340 to CC.  340 should terminate at Chermisde IMO.  I'm happy for it to continue as a BUZ though.  Is there some reason we can't have a BUZ that terminate at a major interchange?

A valid option.  I think the 340 all the way through is justified daytimes, and better to over service than under service, if we want to drive mode shift.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Inbound daytime the 330/340 carry jack all. Outbound is what gets the patronage as everyone gets off at Chermside.

[somebody]

Inbound daytime the 330/340 carry jack all. Outbound is what gets the patronage as everyone gets off at Chermside.

Doubtless this is a function of the stop arrangements at Chermside.

[HappyTrainGuy]

More the reason for them to cut the 330/340 at Chermside, extend the 111 to Aspley interchange along Gympie Road using the Chermside interchange and make the 333 service the Aspley Interchange/Geebung station/Chermside Interchange then express to the city.

[somebody]

More the reason for them to cut the 330/340 at Chermside, extend the 111 to Aspley interchange along Gympie Road using the Chermside interchange and make the 333 service the Aspley Interchange/Geebung station/Chermside Interchange then express to the city.

I don't see ANY reason to mess with the 333 stopping patterns in this way.  It would confuse passengers for no reason whatsoever.

Perhaps I'm not understanding your suggestion.

I'm afraid TL don't agree with the 111 extension plans, and neither do I, for reasons already discussed.

[achiruel]

I'm afraid TL don't agree with the 111 extension plans, and neither do I, for reasons already discussed.

I agree.  EMP to Aspley is far too long for an urban bus route, especially with a substantial amount of Class C ROW in the route.

I think 111 to either QUT KG or RBWH could be looked at though.

I'm not opposed to 330 being BUZ to city, but perhaps the Chermside stop location I/B needs to be looked at so that it better shares load with 333.  Also IIRC the 330 now stops all express stops Chermside-RBWH?  That may help even the load a bit.

Extending 333 BUZ to Aspley might be a good idea though, it would give better interchange with 345.