POLL: Northern Busway services after Windsor-Kedron opening

[somebody]

Increasing the Northern Busway routes, especially in peak does raise questions about how you will manage headways in KGSBS.  Will you take over stop 1b from being an overflow stop for the 88, increase headways above 5 minutes, use the few remaining slots at stop 1f or something else?

[HappyTrainGuy]

I voted other but the most sensible to me is the 335 exp. People know how I feel about a 330/340 buz/route City-Chermside when there is heavy rail available.

Extend the 111 as 8MP-Aspley interchange all stopping buz via Gympie Road, extend the 333 buz/370 to Aspley Interchange via Chermside Markets/Robinson Road taking over the 340 duties (Still using the Chermside Interchange stops for the 333/370) and express the 333 buz/370 to run something similar to 330/340, cull the 330 at Chermside interchange, cull the 340 at Aspley interchange, its not a busway route but run the 336/337 more frequently (eg every 20 min during peak hour) as a good interchange feeder service from Chermside and Aspley interchanges which would do wonders for people living directly around the interchanges in North and East Aspley/East and West Chermside, 335 could go many ways - I wouldn't mind seeing it express along the busway as the new peak hour P335 route with the 339 becoming the default daytime/night time route with a copied 325 city leg along with the route still bypassing Chermside by not using Hamilton road (Anyone living in East Aspley, Fitzgibbon and Taigum could then just tranfer to a Chermside interchange service at Chermside Markets or catch the P335 during peak hour/direction).


The fact still remains Translink still hasn't conducted a damn northside network review which really needs to be undertaken to improve how the network is properly run.

[#Metro]

Agree with HTG. Silly how the main BUZ services don't connect, but the yuckly awful low frequency ones do.
Why do they do this! It must be in the manual - 'local and connector services must have terrible frequency and span as standard'. or 'only the worst buses must connect with trains.'

[somebody]

Robinson Rd?  Do you mean Ellison Rd?

I feel that the entire network design is let down by the mediocre to poor rail services!

[#Metro]

I feel that the entire network design is let down by the mediocre to poor rail services!

Agree with Simon. But I will just point out that 4 buses/hour is still good, even if the line is only 30 minutes. It allows connections to trains in any direction.

[somebody]

One thing, I feel that straightening the 339 to use the Northern Busway and Gympie Rd south of Hamilton Rd and increasing the 325 in peak is almost a no brainer.

[somebody]

I voted other but the most sensible to me is the 335 exp. People know how I feel about a 330/340 buz/route City-Chermside when there is heavy rail available.

I have to say that there is no reasonable train station to feed Chermside.

I'm still yet to see a reasonable (IMO) reason why the 330 shouldn't run all the way to the CBD.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I have to say that there is no reasonable train station to feed Chermside.

I'm still yet to see a reasonable (IMO) reason why the 330 shouldn't run all the way to the CBD.

Geebung is the closest station to Chermside along with it being a direct link between Aspley and Chermside interchanges which isn't that far either. By all means catch the 330 to get to Chermside but don't expect to remain on the same bus to get to the KGSBS. People living in Bracken Ridge should NOT have a bus service direct to the CBD. 22 peak hour services going to the city with 2 feeding the train station is just stupid. There's already a 15 minute service to Bracken Ridge via rail using the Caboolture-Shorncliffe lines and with the Caboolture line soon to be getting 4tph and with 2tph on the Shorncliffe line gives a 10 min service to Bracken Ridge so its not like they have long to wait for a train to/from the city.

Establish 3 main rail feeder/area routes in Bracken Ridge to Bald Hills/Strathpine, Deagon/Sandgate and Carseldine (There's no direct path to Carseldine but there will be one soon as property is being developed by extending the 340 to Taigum/Sandgate via Bracken Ridge) with the 330 feeding Bracken Ridge to Chermside.

Bracken Ridge Loop East
Bracken Ridge Loop West


Robinson road has plenty of bus traffic yet its all 345s out of service. Between Geebung station-Murphy Road there are only the 2 hourly 336,337s along with the hourly 326,327s which trail the 336/337 by a few minutes. Murphy Road-Kirby Road only has 336/337 on a 2 hour frequency. Kirby Road-Gympie road has nothing. Between Kirby Road to Zillmere/Ellison Roads using Gympie Road as a border there isn't a single bus route servicing anything inbetween. If the 333 buz went via Geebung Station/Robinson Road with the 370 going via Chermside Markets/Robinson road to Aspley Interchange ramped up 336/337 services would cover Elison Road and areas inbetween. Anyone on the 370 could easily change to the 337 that's on its final leg to Chermside interchange or get the 336 that just started its leg from the Chermside interchange. Between Murphy Road-Newman Road passengers can board the 337 just starting its leg from the Chermside interchange or passengers could get the train to Geebung and board the final leg of the 336 on its way to Chermside interchange. With the 111 going to Aspley a bunch of routes can then be culled or feed other areas. The 340 could be culled at Aspley Interchange and extended to Sandgate/Taigum via Bracken Ridge/nearby property development, the 326/327 can be culled/culled at Sandgate/Taigum with the 338 extended to feed into Toombul interchange. But everything is all still pointless unless there is a proper network redesign/review of train and bus to reflect these changes.

[somebody]

Between Murphy Rd (330) and Newman Rd (325/6/7) is only 1124m.  Not sure why there needs to be a service up every street in that sort of gap.

Chermside to CBD via Geebung requires starting your journey 135 degrees from the direction you want to go.  Similarly, I can't see why we should make Bracken Ridge people travel at 90 degrees to the direction they want to go to reach the CBD.  This notion would be a serious disincentive to PT use!

EDIT: I'll add that there may be some grounds for a peak only feeder from Gawain Rd to Bald Hills.  The western part of your other route could work too, but in peak only.  I don't see it outside of peak.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Chermside to CBD via Geebung requires starting your journey 135 degrees from the direction you want to go.

Huh?

Similarly, I can't see why we should make Bracken Ridge people travel at 90 degrees to the direction they want to go to reach the CBD.  This notion would be a serious disincentive to PT use!

Boohoo. There are worse things in the network. The 330 loops around Bracken Ridge anyway so why not flood the whole area with more coverage with services linking into a higher capacity mode that is a more frequent mode than the 330 currently offers during peak hour with a 340 extension into the area later on. Upgrade the Shorncliffe line to offer a 4tph frequency, get the Gold Coast/Airport line to stop at Wooloowin/Albion and get the Kippa Ring/Caboolture/Nambour services to run limited exp Northgate-Bowen Hills to offer faster services.

[somebody]

I don't know what to add re:Geebung/Chermside.  Makes perfect sense to me.

Re: Bracken Ridge, you say Boohoo, but I disagree!  Enough trouble getting people to use PT in Brisbane.

[somebody]

I suppose the 325 should be reviewed too.

[Gazza]

imilarly, I can't see why we should make Bracken Ridge people travel at 90 degrees to the direction they want to go to reach the CBD.  This notion would be a serious disincentive to PT use!

Surely its only the overall journey time that matters!

[somebody]

imilarly, I can't see why we should make Bracken Ridge people travel at 90 degrees to the direction they want to go to reach the CBD.  This notion would be a serious disincentive to PT use!

Surely its only the overall journey time that matters!

Of course.  Show me where the overall journey time would be improved on such a model?

Even if it is the same, many would prefer the single seat journey.

On the 325, how about a rocket for Newman Rd using the Northern Busway like this:


EDIT: Here is the .kmz file

[Gazza]

Of course.  Show me where the overall journey time would be improved on such a model?

TL says 31 minutes Zilmere to Roma St on the train.
330 takes 41-46 Minutes.

15 Minute difference at worst!

Granted the busway will speed things up.

I reckon a good model would be to at least have the 'main' Bracken Ridge route modified to terminate at Bald hills. I reckon BUZes should do this where possible, as at the extremity of the route you have the choice to ride in the other direction and use it as a rail feeder, sets up other journey patterns too (Feed rail to go north)

[somebody]

What trip of the 330 takes 46 minutes Zillmere-Roma St?  I can see 38 minutes down to 27 minutes at night.

[somebody]

I expect most people will use the 330 the whole way rather than interchange, unless they are heading to somewhere like Fortitude Valley where interchange makes sense.

[Gazza]

My mistake, was reading the highlighted line above.

I expect most people will use the 330 the whole way rather than interchange,

Because interchange services of equivalent frequency aren't provided in peak AFAIK, hence the 330 being used how it is.

[somebody]

I expect most people will use the 330 the whole way rather than interchange,

Because interchange services of equivalent frequency aren't provided in peak AFAIK, hence the 330 being used how it is.

How do you figure?  Zillmere sees a train every 6 minutes in the peak of the peak.  While I haven't seen the stats nor been up there at this time, I would be surprised if you saw many people getting off the 330/331 in peak for a train.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Zillmere should not be the interchange station. It needs to be Bald Hills, Deagon and Carseldine railway stations. If there were 2 or 3 routes feeding quickly and directly into those stations anyone left onboard the 330 should only be using it to get to Chermside interchange to utilise the other connecting services to other locations.

Gazza, inbound in the morning the trains are run every ~6/7 minutes at Bald Hills vs the 10 min frequency of the 330. Money needs to be put back into rail. I've said it before. Bracken Ridge shouldn't have any buses going direct to the city. Same for Eatons Hill/Brendale. The 357 should be removed, 359 goes full time terminating at Albany Creek. Catch the train to/from the city and use the 338 at Strathpine or catch the 359 to Albany Creek Interchange/111, 333, 370 to Chermside Interchange/111, 345, 350 to Aspley Interchange/even use Trouts road in the future and transfer to the 338.

There is currently only one indirect connecting rail service in Bracken Ridge. There is the 326 to Sandgate station and the 327 which by passes Bald Hills feeding into Strathpine bus interchange. Other than those two crappy services its the 330 to the city. The area needs two/three rail feeders. One twisting through the eastern side before running direct to Bald Hills - Bracken Ridge Loop East - a route looping around the West - Bracken Ridge Loop West - and a loop operating the South - There isn't the current road way to support it but run it along to Beams road into Fitzgibbon, to Rogan Road back to Handford road, into the south east of Bracken Ridge then feeding the south before heading through Fitzgibbon and back to Carseldine station. You might be able to even do it with two feeders. Instead of feeding into Deagon just get both to run along Telegraph Road through Fitzgibbon and to Carseldine station. Problem with the level crossing costing time then utilise the space beside the station on the dead end Lavender Place. The 330 is a good option, but feeding to rail is the better option. Currently the 330 is the best option becuase it is the only option available as no one has had a look at redesigning the network since the rail/bus merge in 2004.

If there is a serious issue with the busway capacity extend the 111 to Aspley interchange via Gympie Road, extend the 370 to Chermside Markets/Aspley Interchange via Kirby/Robinson roads and ramp up the frequency, put a couple of the near by rockets on to it - rework the 339/325 as a full time route with the P335 using the busway, get better feeder routes to train stations eg extending the 333 to Aspley interchange via Geebung Station/Robinson Road.

[somebody]

5 minute frequency between the 330 and 331.  Heading O/B that only applies from RBH & Chermside Gardens though.

359 terminating at Albany Creek?  What do you mean, making it an Albany Creek-Eatonvale shuttle?

Remove the 357?  Then what would serve Old Northern Rd?  I guess the 338 but that is somewhat indirect for CBD trips.

327 makes sense as a shoppers service to Strathpine, perhaps the odd person heading north.

I also didn't see how Handford Rd/Murphy Rd would be served.

I'm against basically all of that.  Except for the bit of feeding Bald Hills from Bracken Ridge in peak hour and increasing the 338.  Deagon is a bit of a deviation too.

And why would you have the 350 still running to Aspley interchange?  Make it go somewhere useful.  Perhaps Brendale.  The 338 can cover the bit of Albany Creek Rd.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I mean culling the 359 from the City at Albany Creek Village. No 357/359 extensions into Eatons Hill. Want to get there transfer onto a 338 from Strathpine Station/Chermside-Aspley-Albany Creek Village interchanges. Maybe extend the 338 to quickly run down there then loop back to Saraband drive.

338 Shouldn't go anywhere near the city. At most extend it to Toombul interchange to remove a few other routes such as the 326/327/GCL etc.

So what if the 338 is indirect for people going to the city if the 357/359 gets culled. They should harden the f**k up! What about the people that live there that work at Chermside, Strathpine, Aspley or the kids that use the local nearby school. If that's too much of an issue removing the 357 then atleast cull it at Albany Village. The whole area is indirect for any trip that doesn't have Brisbane CBD as the destination. The 338 should be the true Eatons Hill/Eatonvale route (I'd rather see a 338 Strathpine-Chermside buz than some 357/359 buz however if there is a 357 buz it should duplicate the 338 eatons hill route and feed into Strathpine station/bus interchange) as the 357/359 are halfed assed duplicate routes that terminate halfway instead of providing full coverage to Eatons Hill via the south and north. In the arvo its faster to get the all stopper train Roma Street-Strathpine + the last 338 to Eatons Hill in sub 60 minutes. That's if you can manage to get the 338 if its usually running 1-2 minutes late: Train arrives at 5.23/5.24 with the bus departing at roughly the same time compared to getting the stuck in peak hour traffic 357. Just wish the trains went back to their old running patterns as that was alot faster than the 357.

The 330 would service Handford/Murphy roads. The problem I have with the 330 is that it shouldn't run Chermside-City when Bracken Ridge has a heavy rail near by which is pretty easily accessed.

[somebody]

That's some serious hate you have there for people that want to get to the city quickly and don't live near railway stations!

[HappyTrainGuy]

Well, try using PT in those areas. Its f**king shocking especially if you don't want to go to the city! Really needs a network review which should have been conducted back in 06-07. Establish the main corridors and then work the feeders.

[somebody]

I suggest removing the 332 and increasing the 333 in peak.  Stop space can be gained in the PM peak by converting northbound 66 trips into 333 trips.  Either that or the same treatment for the 331/330.

Well, try using PT in those areas.

I don't doubt that it is bad, but what your are proposing is sure to reduce PT use in those areas.

[#Metro]

Well, try using PT in those areas. Its f**king shocking especially if you don't want to go to the city! Really needs a network review which should have been conducted back in 06-07. Establish the main corridors and then work the feeders.

Er, no the review should have been done in 1969 when the trams were closed down. Seems that the network hasn't really changed much since then!! 

[HappyTrainGuy]

lol. It might be depending on how you look at it. If you can get to Strathpine to get a train to the city it could (would be faster especially if Caboolture trains ran express once Kippa Ring is up) than a bus to the city. When the old timetable was in effect the arvo express trains + bus combo was faster than the 359/357 bus from Roma Street to Eatons Hill. Now its about par/a couple mins faster depending on the time but the whole northside needs a proper work out with assigned corridors. 359 could be a good service if its buzed but it has to be extended to duplicate the 338 route to Strathpine.

Translink wasn't around in 1969. BT assigned their routes and fares to compete against the railway lines. Translink formed in 2004 to stop it with intergrated ticketing yet they haven't done anything since then.

[somebody]

Then what would serve the bits of the 359 route between Albany Creek Rd and Rode Rd?  I can see that the 338 would serve Old Northern Rd (357) with a serious inconvenience.

[#Metro]

Translink wasn't around in 1969. BT assigned their routes and fares to compete against the railway lines. Translink formed in 2004 to stop it with intergrated ticketing yet they haven't done anything since then.

This is a VERY good point. More reason why legacy routing MUST GO. CUT!!

[HappyTrainGuy]

Then what would serve the bits of the 359 route between Albany Creek Rd and Rode Rd?

A-what now? 359+338 The 359 runs past Rode road before turning off onto Jinker Trak hiting the back streets making its way to Albany Creek Road. Between that intersection and the intersection that the 338 uses is roughly a ~500m walk. If its such a major issue that buses must service that part of the road demolish the two useless public walkways (Yes, there are 2 pathways within 10m of each other through a park. Great planning there) at Keong/Northern Road or what I'd perfer the skate park futher north to allow for quick interchange between the 359 and 338 along with removing the 338 back street running (stays on Old Nothern Road at all times and none of this during school terms and during school hours) and build a bus/cycle only road (similar to what can be seen on the Gold Coast) between the shops/park etc then route the 359 down Fredrick Street back to Jinker Trac. Its only a 1-1.5km deviation. The 357 is effectivley a direct bus service for Eatons Hill to the City. Its only run during peak hour in the peak direction. After 9am the next 357 that runs past that part of road in any direction is the first 357 outbound from the City at 3.30ish which is why I want to see it cut so much. People just have to adjust to it. Just like if someone wants to catch a bus along Northern Road between Keong Road and Jinker Trac to the city tomorrow at 9.59am. Its just not going to happen. People have to harden up. PT doesn't use money that grows on trees. This isn't the bus vs train days anymore. CUT, REPLACE, CULL!

Something like.

Red is modified 359 route
Blue current 338 route
Green is current 359 route
Not included but the 357 runs along Old Nrthern Road

Cut the 357. Buz the 359 doing a 338 leg Albany Village-Strathpine interchange/2bph min 338 culled at Albany Village or buz the 338 terminating at Strathpine interchange every time/2bph minimum 359 culled at Albany Village.

I'd perfer the 338 buz/359 2bph min as it forces people in Eatons Hill that go to the city to interchange. If you can interchange at Albany Village then you can bloody well interchange at Strathpine railway station to board a train thats faster with more capacity. Double point if trouts road goes up too. I want to see the same thing applied to Bracken Ridge. Get a bus to Bald Hills or Carseldine. Then you can start shuffling and improving the network such as extending the 338 to Toombul interchange, extending the 111 along Gympie Road/extend the 370 via Webster Road/ extend the 333 buz via Geebung to the Aspley interchange. Doing that removes the GCL between Chermside/Toombul; The 326/327 can then be culled at Zillmere and removed Zillmere-Toombul; The 336/337 could then be removed/rerouted through the Geebung/East Aspley area; 340 can be culled at Aspley interchange/extended into the Fitzgibbon/Taigum area - Might be enough to get the 326/327 out of Taigum as well; The 335 can be culled from the Chermside area and reworked into the 325 route through the city; The P339 can be assigned to run via the busway during peak hour; The 77/680 could then be put to better use along the busway and Gympie Road; The 310/315 can then be modified along Sandgate road so on and so on.

[somebody]

B4 you were saying to cut the 359 south of Albany Creek:

I mean culling the 359 from the City at Albany Creek Village.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I think we got mixed up. I meant culling it at Albany Village from the city so it only runs City to Albany Village/Albany Village to City.

I mean culling the 359 from the City at Albany Creek Village. No 357/359 extensions into Eatons Hill. Want to get there transfer onto a 338....

[somebody]

Much betterer.

Maybe the 350 can do Eatonvale.  I don't think it would be slower than the 359.

[BrizCommuter]

A BUZ that travels via Prince Charles Hospital would be nice!

[somebody]

A BUZ that travels via Prince Charles Hospital would be nice!

Does the 325 count?  Or does it have to be GCL style.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Wouldn't that just be the same as the 359 but its just via McDowall instead of Albany Creek? I'd suggest sending the 350 to Bald Hills... but I'd rather not see that happen. There is a new property development in Bald Hills just off Telegraph road and the new... semi new... recent housing estate just off Rogan Road. But along Bridgeman Road there's nothing... nada... zip housing wise (Could change pretty quickly if trouts road goes though). The 680 could easily be reworked through bald hills to quickly stop at the train station/new housing area (If there is demand, otherwise stuff it ) with the 350 reworked to Albany Village bypassing Aspley.

What are the loads like for the 350 to Aspley anyway? Could there be a loop route of some sort, 350 @ 4bph along Bridgeman Road/City but split so its 2bph to Albany Village and 2bph to Aspley Interchange with the 338 linking the two directly; new route to other areas such as Taigum (If there was a 350ish route to Taigum via Zillmere/Murphy roads with a 333 along Robinson road to Aspley interchange the 336/337 should be cut from the East Aspley/Geebung Area), Stafford, Chermside, Everton Hills, Ferny Grove etc/palm off onto a core route.

325 buz would work pretty well. Fix the rail system for 4tph. Coming from the North jump off the train at Geebung to the 333 buz transfer to the 325 buz at Chermside, north west is just the 338 to Chermside transfer to the 325 buz, Sandgate get the train to Boondall and jump on the 325 buz, from the South/City transfer to the 325 at Roma Street, Valley jump on the 320/370 to Chermside transfer to 325 buz, Ferny Grove line can transfer at Newmarket station for the 325 buz, from the East get the 320 (add the 338 if its extended to Toombul). Not too sure about routes from the west though.

111 @ 4bph, 333 @ 4bph, 370 @ 4bph, 335@ 2bph, 77 @ 2bph via the busway should be enough going via Chermside when combined with other corridors such as the 325 @ 4bph, 320 @ 2bph and other routes closer to the city for off peak.

What restrictions are there for buses at Chermside anyway? eg Bendy buses/triaxel etc that could limit the amount of people carried at once.

[somebody]

When I've used the 350 it's loads haven't been too bad.

Sending it to Bald Hills is an interesting proposition, but I can't see removing the 340 by doing that, so you would have two similar routes near each other.

Sending it to Eatonvale would cover the top of Albany Creek Rd, but otherwise I guess just like the 359.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The 340 shouldn't be removed except from City-Chermside and maybe Aspley depending on how the network is set up. If anything it should be culled at Aspley interchange (transfer to the 111/333/345/370 etc at the Asp int. or to the 680 along Gympie Road) and then pushed further into Taigum so locals could utilise it as a Carseldine/Taigum feeder service to the 325 buz and train station rather than the sole 325/335/339 that runs past hourly just before/after the train connecting. THe 326/327 could then be modified too depending how its runs through the Taigum area.

[somebody]

I'm fairly sure the 340 is the only service for Webster Rd between Hamilton Rd and Gympie Rd, other than the peak only P339.  Moving the 335 might be possible, but that leaves only the 338 for Gympie Rd between Murphy Rd and Webster Rd.

I also think that Chermside is a major destination so therefore should be served by the 340.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I also think that Chermside is a major destination so therefore should be served by the 340.

Agree with that. The whole Brisbane northern region is just a mess that needs to be sorted out.

I'm fairly sure the 340 is the only service for Webster Rd between Hamilton Rd and Gympie Rd, other than the peak only P339.

Yeah, the 336/337/339/340 are the only routes that service that part of Webster Road. The thing about that whole area.... the whole northern region is that there are so many options for routes if they just put a few more bucks into extending a few key services here and there, move that route there and establishing proper corridors/frequent routes. Extend the 370 to terminate at Chermside Markets/Aspley interchange via Kirby/Robinson road can make the 335 bypass Chermside all together and run straight along Webster Road. Buz the 325 and the 335 can run down Kirby/Ellison/Murphy/Gympie roads (I'd like to see that be the route currently used instead of via Gympie Road) to terminate at the Chermside interchange/busway to the city if capacity is needed with the 340 via Gympie/Ellison/Webster Road to Chermside. No need for the 336/337 to run that area. Extend the 111 to Aspley interchange can make the 338 terminate there (rather see it extended to Toombul to remove the 326/327/GCL). Extend the 333 buz to the Aspley interchange via Geebung Station/Robinson road can further remove the 326/327 from Zillmere-Toombul and cut parts of the 336/337 through Geebung/East Aspley. If there was a route from McDowall-Asp Int.-Gympie Road-Zillmere Road-Murphy Road/Taigum/Bracken Ridge/Boondall with the 333 via Geebung the 336/337 can pretty much be cut full time from the north. Get something running along Hamilton Road from the West can then remove the 336/337 Chermside west-Aspley leg. Ha, look at that. Just cut pretty much the whole need for the 336/337 by extending/modifying current routes That all being said those routes can quickly change again. Translink needs to do its job with some propper network planning.

Moving the 335 might be possible, but that leaves only the 338 for Gympie Rd between Murphy Rd and Webster Rd.

Simon, no one uses the Gympie Road bus stop there because of its location. There is a sports field which makes it roughly a 200-400m walk through a vacant area/creek just to get to the bus stop from Ellison Road + the distance to your house so they might aswell walk up the hill to the 335/339 on Kirby Road or the 330 on Murphy Road. At night/early morning there is no lighting available but there is along Ellison road. In the arvo you have the issue of no crossing facilities/heavy traffic so if you want to use the traffic lights your looking at over a km just to cross the road and get back to the bus stop. Just for that the 336/337 should only be run during peak hour instead of between 9am-3pm or send the 335 down Ellison road full time. There is also the 680 that would service that stop.