QLD Transport talk from: Article: Transportation Jetsons-style

[#Metro]

Yet you jump on SACEM saying "why would they have put that in in 1997?" They wouldn't have. Current signalling would have been fine for then (and probably even now). SACEM would have been the future!

This has been said a number of times, but a number of people get off trains at Roma St. The IPS-CAB corridor through the CBD has trains every 3 minutes, this would be similar on the subs. What's the issue with transferring? Merivale bridge II could be paid for with Gobetween Bridge funds. Or INB funds. Or Gateway Bridge funds. Hell, even Richlands/Ferny Grove duplication funds would be better spent here. I can't see the bridge itself costing much more than the Gobetween Bridge anyway though. Yes it's to rail standard, but in terms of design and actually building it, theres really very little difference.

So now we have to resort to pulling cash from other places as well... fantasy...

This has been said a number of times, but a number of people get off trains at Roma St.

No kidding, but as I keep pointing out, at the height of peak hour, people wanting CENTRAL would be forced to take trains that are already full on the existing lines. People for Queen Street Mall would face an extremely long walk to there as well. The location is not one that you'd want. This is one of the reasons why CRR goes via wooloongabba, and also the state had been trying since 1970 to go via Wooloongabba, so in all likelyhood IMHO would have chosen that option.

The SEB can use the Captain Cook Bridge, which is a far superior and more direct alignment into the CBD. Rail can't do that without CRR.

RE: "Night time Frequency/Capacity"
As I said, if the will is there. Do you really think BUZ routes would run as frequent as they do, as late as they do, if the 'rule' for BUZ routes wasn't 15 minutes off-peak? I also never said I expected the late night services to be full. However, given the day time off-peak trains at 30 minute frequency regularly pull into Park Rd with nearly all seats taken, I wouldn't be surprised if they go alright at night if you ran them frequently. And I've also caught late night trains where you certainly COULDN'T fit everyone on a bus.

Labour cost at the margin determines whether the next service is run. Late night services have high staff costs, therefore the frequency often is rolled back. Vancouver skytrain gets around this because it has no drivers.

Not sure whats going on here. There is no doubt that travel would certainly be much faster for trips south of 8MP. As for trips 8MP-CBD, the travel time wouldn't be any worse, and could in fact be better if you had less stops. The only way I can see you saying travel time would be worse, would be something to do with wait time, but that isn't something about 'rail' versus 'bus' that is purely how frequently you run the service. If all the routes that currently run along the busway then peel off to various directions, instead terminated and fed rail at a station then there would be a much higher justification for <15minute frequency off-peak.

Yes, but that's assuming you'd have all the money in one hit to do all the way to GC and not only that GC pax would only make a tiny fraction of the pax. You'd obviously want to have the most benefits for the most people, which is pax from the inner section CBD-8MP.

Secondly, 2 min frequency off peak is amazing! Ha! 15 min frequency off peak is nowhere as good, trust me I live near the busway...

RE: "Stub Line/Funding"
So what? What is Richlands/Springfield? A stub line. You have to start somewhere. Trying to get the whole massive line built in one go wouldn't be feasible. But building and paying for it piece by piece would work. It might not be optimal in terms of initial benefits vs initial costs but once it's done it would certainly be worth it

Yes, but a benefit now is worth more than a benefit at some point in the future. You know they did put a bus on now, and the rail line is STILL being constructed?

[Stillwater]

Enough, please.  Please.

[Gazza]

Er, the GC trains only eat up 4 tph in peak hour as I take it. You're still going to need a new Merivale Bridge, city tunnels (better as CRR) and have problems at Roma Street.

An express train takes up more 'paths' than an all stopper, especially when trying to run both at once!

Yes, but that's assuming you'd have all the money in one hit to do all the way to GC and not only that GC pax would only make a tiny fraction of the pax. You'd obviously want to have the most benefits for the most people, which is pax from the inner section CBD-8MP.

Lol, proof that TT doesn't read posts. We never said it would be done to the GC in one hit.

[STB]

Would QR run higher frequency services even if it was up to them?  They had decades (before TransLink) to do so, and never chose to.

The cultural, political and institutional environment then was that BT had ZERO incentive to run buses to trains anyway, you have to remember that there wasn't integrated ticketing either until after 2004, so transfer penalties would under this environment would have favoured the direct trip because TransLink didn't exist and modes were competitive. I just can't see 18 000 pphd all getting off a the train station and buying another ticket - at that time you would have not only the inconvenience of transfer (~10 minutes) but a financial penalty to pay as well.

Crystal Ball Stuff.

There was some (limited) integrated BT/CityTrain integration pre-TransLink, the scheme was called CityTrans in limited areas.  I do recall Centenary suburbs to Darra was one of the routes.  Aside from the (limited) integration in the BCC area, Both coasts and outer metro areas (Caboolture, Ipswich, Birkdale/Capalaba, etc) had integration arrangements (called TrainLink) with the respective private operators in those areas.

Just as a bit of trivia.  Citytrans was managed internally in QR at the time and was, as I was told, an example to show Government and other stakeholders how integrated ticketing could work.  The guy who managed Citytrans used to be my supervisor back in the day.  He also designed the Citytrans routes, which included route 104.  The reason route 104 didn't go to the busway is because BT told him that there wasn't enough runtime to turn the bus around without having to soak up another bus, so it terminated at the PA Hospital instead.

[#Metro]

Just as a bit of trivia.  Citytrans was managed internally in QR at the time and was, as I was told, an example to show Government and other stakeholders how integrated ticketing could work.  The guy who managed Citytrans used to be my supervisor back in the day.  He also designed the Citytrans routes, which included route 104.  The reason route 104 didn't go to the busway is because BT told him that there wasn't enough runtime to turn the bus around without having to soak up another bus, so it terminated at the PA Hospital instead.

Still terminates at PA, which is a shame really, stopping underneath the busway isn't very visible and the 105 which also goes most places the 104 goes to is on the upper level. I'd like to see the 104 go to Stones Corner and then use the turnaround.

[#Metro]

Lol, proof that TT doesn't read posts. We never said it would be done to the GC in one hit.

Perhaps you could do your own reading with this 3/4 track railway of yours:

Yes, but a benefit now is worth more than a benefit at some point in the future. You know they did put a bus on now, and the rail line is STILL being constructed?

If the benefits come later in the future, their value is reduced by the discounting rate in the BCR and NPV calculations.

[colinw]

This whole discussion is getting somewhat ridiculous. Can we talk about something useful now please?

I still personally believe the SEB was a massive wasted opportunity and short term planning at its worst, but that argument is basically irrelevant now and I don't feel like pursuing it any further as its been done to death. TT's contention that the ultimate future of the SEB is Metro strikes me as about right, and would certainly be preferable to extending the SEB to Loganholme just as a busway. One thing I will say is that any idea of light rail conversion of the busway(s) should be resisted, it has to be something higher capacity than that.

The future of the Beenleigh line is, however, a separate problem that is worthy of further discussion. As a Metro like line as far as around Kuraby it would be ok - it has Metro like station spacing & average speeds - but as a 40km suburban line and first 40km of a supposedly fast intercity line it is a disaster.

So, how do we make lemonade from the Beenleigh / Gold Coast line lemon?

[#Metro]

We are getting Cross River Rail. It may be possible to still use the M1 alignment and then funnel this into CRR. You could have a single interchange stop at Garden City to connect to the busway- this would minimise the number of stations required to say CRR stations, Garden City, two or thee stations in logan, and then Gold Coast, appropriate for a regional service.

The duplications/quadding etc on the Beenleigh line isn't a waste. The beenleigh line itself has far too many stops and is woefully slow. Under this scenario, that line could be split into an all day short local to say Kuraby or a bit further out, and an express which skips the inner stations, but then does say, Kuraby and beyond. Remember, at some point a spur line for a service to Greenbank/Yarrabilba needs to be installed as well, so it's not all lost.

[colinw]

The Beenleigh line gets a bad reputation due to the close station spacing, but as a Metro style service to about Coopers Plains or Kuraby it would be quite acceptable and no slower than lines of comparable length & number of stations on the London Underground, Metro Madrid, etc.  It is just as longer distance commuter rail it really sucks.

With sufficient track capacity, a two tier service could work relatively well.  The 8:29AM Beenleigh departure, running express Kuraby to South Bank (Kuraby 8:54, South Bank 9:19) shows what could be done if the capacity was there to split the service.

[colinw]

Remember, at some point a spur line for a service to Greenbank/Yarrabilba needs to be installed as well, so it's not all lost.

Once CRR is done, Greenbank & Flagstone will have to happen, and relatively quickly with the rate of development out that way.

Yarrabilba I still have no idea what to do about. Given that my wife is talking about moving us out that way, it may become an issue of some interest to me, although we'll probably just tool around in a 4WD like every other outer suburban resident. (Mind you, I'm still arguing to get the heck out of SEQ and never look back - utterly, completely over this 3rd rate joke of a state).

[#Metro]

The Beenleigh line gets a bad reputation due to the close station spacing, but as a Metro style service to about Coopers Plains or Kuraby it would be quite acceptable and no slower than lines of comparable length & number of stations on the London Underground, Metro Madrid, etc.  It is just as longer distance commuter rail it really sucks.

With sufficient track capacity, a two tier service could work relatively well.  The 8:29AM Beenleigh departure, running express Kuraby to South Bank (Kuraby 8:54, South Bank 9:19) shows what could be done if the capacity was there to split the service.

I agree a lot with this. The beauty is with CRR we aren't locked into a rubbish Merivale Bridge alignment, and I wonder if this means also that the rest of the line is possible to split from Beenleigh and put down the M1 at some point in the future. I don't think it is that urgent though.

Yarrabilba I still have no idea what to do about. Given that my wife is talking about moving us out that way, it may become an issue of some interest to me, although we'll probably just tool around in a 4WD like every other outer suburban resident. (Mind you, I'm still arguing to get the heck out of SEQ and never look back - utterly, completely over this 3rd rate joke of a state).

I'm curious as to what is so attractive out there that you would move there? Secondly, I think there is huge opportunity for rail in QLD. The presence of a lot of problems also signals a lot of opportunities for projects that generate business.

[colinw]

I'm curious as to what is so attractive out there that you would move there? Secondly, I think there is huge opportunity for rail in QLD. The presence of a lot of problems also signals a lot of opportunities for projects that generate business.

For me, nothing, and I mean nothing, however our kid goes to the private school at Waterford and my wife is from a rural background and our current life in suburbia doesn't sit well with her. My argument  is that if a return to farm life is what she wants, going as far as Yarrabilba wouldn't be far enough (still over 1000km too close to Brisbane for my tastes).

Yarrabilba I can see a few options, ranging from half baked to workable.

1.  Somewhat half baked. Resurrect the old branch line (non-electrified) as a feeder service or hang a right at Bethania and go to Beenleigh. Apart from the curves at Bethania end, it is a good alignment.  The "foamer" part of my brain is very attracted to this scenario - it is a lovely old line and I have great memories of toddling along it behind a PB15 on the last couple of ARHS tours.  Once you get past Easterly St, Waterford, there's no reason it couldn't support 100km/h+ running with proper track, but the 2km or so from there to Bethania would have 60km/h curves similar to around Grovely on the Ferny Grove line.

2.  Turn the old rail ROW into a Class A- ROW busway (not grade separated at minor roads) to Bethania, but continue from Bethania over the river to Tanah Merah and thence via bus lanes to Logan Hyperdome for interchange with 555 bus and future SEB extension of SEB Metro.  Would put Yarrabilba at one end of a radial route linking to the Beenleigh/Gold Coast line and SEB / future Metro

3. Ignore the old rail corridor (make it a bikeway) and link Yarrabilba to Browns Plains via busway/shoulder lanes on the proposed Southern Extension of the Gateway Motorway.

Given the location of Yarrabilba, it is not somewhere I think we should be encouraging a Brisbane CBD commute from.  Something like a partial orbital route to Loganholme (my option 2) allowing a choice of City, Beenleigh & Gold Coast commutes might be the idea.

The closest major activity centres are Browns Plains & Beenleigh, then Loganholme & Garden City.

[#Metro]

The problem with these centres is that they don't have a CBD. Once the residents get in, NIMBY pops up and that's it. It needs to have a proper, dedicated business district.

[colinw]

The problem with these centres is that they don't have a CBD. Once the residents get in, NIMBY pops up and that's it. It needs to have a proper, dedicated business district.

Yarrabilba has no reason to exist at all.

It has no decent transport links to any major centre (even access to relatively close by Beenleigh & Browns Plains is indirect & substandard). It has no decent links to any quality corridors. It is "fenced off" by the Logan River.

Compared to Ripley, Flagstone and even Caloundra South, Yarrabilba is a "nowhere" location to put anything.  The other ULDA developments all sit astride decent existing or future transport corridors.

In reality it will just be another Delfin ****-lakes type sprawl, complete with circuitous street plan and streets you would struggle to put a minibus down, let alone a bus route (or a fire engine for that matter).

The ULDA really screwed it up with this one.

The Logan Village to  Waterford road is already throwing 1km+ jams at the intersection with the Kingston to Beenleigh road, even with the small population out there.  The Delfin "Woodlands" development at Waterford, by itself, has stressed out the infrastructure in the area.

[somebody]

TT, please provide a link to the post where anyone said they would want to duplicate the Merivale bridge and leave it as a dead end.  I didn't notice that.

And CRR is not funded.  There is no guarantee it will happen.

I still personally believe the SEB was a massive wasted opportunity and short term planning at its worst,

However, it is easy to see why.  When lines like Richlands and Springfield are to be built to have 2tph off peak, that is far more wasteful.

Although you can say the same thing about the Eastern Busway.  Only 8bph use it off peak while 8bph bypass it

[colinw]

However, it is easy to see why.  When lines like Richlands and Springfield are to be built to have 2tph off peak, that is far more wasteful.

No argument there. For 2tph service I would not have built either the Springfield or Kippa-Ring lines, as neither will be doing anything a BUZ route can't for 1% of the cost.

I would not build a single km of new rail in SEQ if it was going to run at current service levels.  In fact I'm fairly sure you guys would absolutely detest me as transport minister, because the first edict would be "provide a decent service, or close it if you can't", for services on ALL modes.  Seriously - lines like Doomben I wouldn't bother operating at all with the current service delivery model. Ditto dumb-a** hourly buses that cut out at 7:20PM like my local 554 route.  Why bother?

[#Metro]

TT, please provide a link to the post where anyone said they would want to duplicate the Merivale bridge and leave it as a dead end.  I didn't notice that.

And CRR is not funded.  There is no guarantee it will happen.

You need a Merivale Bridge AND you also need to pay for tunnels into the CBD - CENTRAL, VALLEY etc.
That's $$$ that weren't around at that time. The alternative is to stop at Roma Street and transfer - this is not possible due to the huge volumes.
Stopping at Roma Street was implied - the cost of another tunnel through the CBD is prohibitive (or at least was at that time, and people would not
be suggesting using buses or transferring or setups similar to Adelaide/Adelaide trams if they had not implied a terminus at Roma Street.

And CRR is not funded.  There is no guarantee it will happen.

We'll see about that.

[colinw]

And CRR is not funded.  There is no guarantee it will happen.

We'll see about that.

I agree with Simon.

I see no evidence that CRR is likely to proceed or that the new Gov't has a clue what to do with SEQ public transport.  I await the half baked nonsense to come with bated breath.

I  half expect we'll get some stupid busway tunnel instead, then wonder why the air quality in it is so bad when all the buses bunch up and sit there belching diesel fumes & soot somewhere under the river due to KGSBS style limitations in the stations.

[#Metro]

I don't deny, that with copious amounts of money, that we could have Paris RER on the SEB. Now I don't know why anyone would put themselves through the torture to do this, particularly when rail on the inner section CBD-8MP has no travel time benefits over and above the current bus operation. I've had a look at the page about RER and it's only in the core section that 90 sec headways or better are achieved. They had to build their own system really - they invented their own signalling system (you'd have to have the trains modified for in cab signalling and specialist rollingstock for this), you'd have to have multiple tracks to separate the local and express services, you'd have to tunnel along CRR alignment into the CBD which is the best approach into Brisbane - not Roma Street - despite what everyone keeps saying- they want to make the rail option look cheaper, when really such a poor alignment should not be encouraged. it would all have to be built to extremely high quality standard and maintainence if you are going to have train frequencies like that to prevent accidents. It's the Ferrari option and you would not bother doing this for 4000 pphd or even 8000 pphd from the Gold Coast at the time.

I know if I was an engineer or planner and a proposal like Paris RER for Brisbane came across my desk at work in 1997, i'd laugh in their face and shred it.
We have the benefit of knowing that the SEB carries 44 million pax today, but I doubt that they could have forecasted that. And even Perth today, which IS built to the standards that people fantasise the SEB could be doesn't achieve anywhere near that. And before anyone says feeder buses, remember 50% of Perth's patronage comes from the massive car parks and that SEB stations HAVE NO PARKING except for 8MP.

The density of the city, the volumes of passengers carried on the network at the time in single lines and so forth and just the sheer cost would have me reject it.

It's expensive. It's Ferrari. And the busway will do. Nonsense like SACEM must be eye-wateringly expensive. The busway can achieve 10 - 20 second headways, better than any rail system I know of, without any special signalling. Express and local services can operate in the same lanes, passing at stations. To do this with rail, you'd need a very large station footprint, requiring larger more expensive stations to accommodate the lengths of train and the larger station - more resumptions. It can achieve 18 000 pphd. It was ridiculously cheap and doesn't require 4 tracks.

To do it as rail would have cost so much to buy gold-plated concrete, you'd eat up a lot of the money and wouldn't have much to run the bus feeders IMHO.

Also, the decisions are already made, so any shoulda, woulda coulda thoughts are a bit irrelevant today anyway.
Should it have been rail? Doubt it.

[colinw]

I know if I was an engineer or planner and a proposal like Paris RER for Brisbane came across my desk at work in 1997, i'd laugh in their face and shred it.

Exactly what is happening to CRR as we speak. 

I suspect the Gov't views CRR as a "Ferrari" solution for a problem that doesn't even need rail. Just watch and see what happens.  The window opened, there was a brief opportunity, it is gone now.

We're laughing ourselves into an unsustainable, unrecoverable mess.

[#Metro]

I suspect the Gov't views CRR as a "Ferrari" solution for a problem that doesn't even need rail. Just watch and see what happens.  The window opened, there was a brief opportunity, it is gone now.

I think it is just sabre rattling. We need CRR because the Merivale alignment is RUBBISH.

[colinw]

I think it is just sabre rattling. We need CRR because the Merivale alignment is RUBBISH.

Now who is making completely unjustified judgements with year 2012 hindsight?

The Merivale alignment was perfectly sensible for the 1960s/1970s, and you would have been laughed at for suggesting anything else (as indeed the Wilbur Smith, etc., studies were disregarded).

Right from the establishment of South Brisbane as a terminal, there was always intended to be a bridge more or less on that alignment, with the first drawings as early as the 1890s.

When the Merivale Bridge opened in 1978, it integrated the South & North side systems for the first time, and for the first time the South Side lines ended up with a clockface off-peak timetable and single seat journey to the CBD.  The patronage growth on the Lota & Beenleigh lines from 1978 was nothing short of spectacular, compounding further after electrification to Kingston in 1982, Thorneside in 1983 and Beenleigh in 1984.

Your statements about the Merivale Bridge constitute EXACTLY the same thing you accuse us of with respect to the SEB.  The FACT is that the integration of the southside & northside systems, followed by electrification, saved Brisbane's suburban rail from what would have been a well deserved oblivion (and I speak as someone who remembers using the Brisbane trains in the mid 1970s).

Sure, it can been seen in hindsight to be a poor & indirect alignment, but in 1974 when it was approved for construction, nobody in their right mind would have built anything else. Certainly NOT a cross river tunnel that wouldn't allow freight.  Remember that the Merivale Bridge marked a massive turn-around in the fortunes of rail in Brisbane - its approval being not that many years after a report (Ford, Davis, Bacon?) that recommended axing suburban rail in Brisbane other than a core Darra to Zillmere electric service.

As for CRR, yes it fixes the Beenleigh & Gold Coast line alignment (but leaves it hopelessly slow & congested beyond Salisbury).  But it also leaves the most indirect of all suburban lines - the Cleveland line with its big dogleg - routed via the RUBBISH Merivale bridge alignment. 

Please kill off the CRR "Cargo Cult" mentality.  IT IS NOT THE SOLUTION FOR ALL OUR PROBLEMS.  Yes, I have gone cold on it - just another undeliverable mega project.

[ozbob]

Relax all, have a cup of coffee and a muffin!   

It won't be long before we see the first  ' world class public transport system ' appear in a post election Ministerial Statement I suppose, and considering the recent 'miracle' in Victoria, who knows what awaits the good citizens of Queensland!

[#Metro]

Now who is making completely unjustified judgements with year 2012 hindsight?

The Merivale alignment was perfectly sensible for the 1960s/1970s, and you would have been laughed at for suggesting anything else (as indeed the Wilbur Smith, etc., studies were disregarded).

I've read the Wilbur Smith Reports myself. The recommendation was to go via Wooloongabba and had it been done long ago, as recommended, it would be a bridge structure diving in behind the botanic gardens. The cost would also be significantly cheaper than it is today because it would only require short tunnel sections, not a dive under the Brisbane River. This option is now precluded as the lovely Clem 7 is in the way.

No, instead they decided to put more tunnels through the CBD, leaving us with a legacy alignment. South Bank and South Brisbane would have been cut off (not that is a problem today, we have the busway there - but at that time the Ottawa busway was just being built, and no one really thought much about busways then - except for a few drawings in the back of the Wilbur Smith Report which eeriliy looks like QSBS). But yes, I have to agree with your point Colin W, it was cr%p but cheap at the time so they did it.

[colinw]

You need to look at it from a 1970s perspective.

- The trams had just gone.
- The first Gold Coast line of blessed memory was only 10 years dead, with no hope of reconstruction*
- The Cleveland line had been truncated back to Lota.
- One study had proposed axing all suburban rail except Darra to Zillmere.
- There had been serious suggestions of truncating the Ferny Grove & Beenleigh lines at Keperra & Kingston respectively.
- Rail was widely viewed as an outmoded hangover from the 19t century, and the suburban passenger rail systems in every city except Sydney & Melbourne appeared to be on the final run down to oblivion.

Then in 1974 the Whitlam Government lobbed a bit of money around for urban public transport. That money seeded the electrification in Brisbane, and the Merivale Bridge.  Had they not lost the 1975 election, electrification in Adelaide was the next upgrade on the agenda for Federal funding.

It would have been a brave and far-sighted Government indeed that would have gone for the expensive Woolloongabba tunnel alignment, when the very survival of suburban rail in Brisbane was open to question.

Had the electrification project fallen over (as the 1948 first Brisbane electrification project did), then the Merivale Bridge was the safe option as it left in place a very useful FREIGHT route.  Even in 1974 the value of freight rail was understood, whereas urban rail was not.

Seen from our 2012 viewpoint, the Merivale bridge and Roma St junctions look ordinary indeed.

In 1978 when it opened, it was revolutionary.

* Regarding Gold Coast, what was seen as dead & buried in the 1970s turned around very quickly. Gold Coast rail was firmly back on the agenda by around by 1982. The Beenleigh line deviations and new Beenleigh station of the mid 1980s put Beenleigh station into a better location for ultimate re-extension. Then the Kuraby to Beenleigh duplication approved in the late 1980s was a very clear sign that re-construction to the coast would happen.

The change to Brisbane suburban rail from 1974 to 1984 was nothing short of revolutionary. We have seen the same again in Perth in the early '90s, and hopefully will see it in Adelaide in a few years time. The Merivale bridge should be seen as one of the first baby steps toward that resurrection of the fortunes of urban rail (although we have once again lost our way).

[HappyTrainGuy]

Ditto dumb-a** hourly buses that cut out at 7:20PM like my local 554 route.  Why bother?

What? People are still up that late at night? Atleast you have your local bus running after 5.20pm.... I mean honestly there are some shocking running hours out there.

When Springfield actually has a railway line, same with Kippa Ring I expect to see 4tph Kippa Ring-Springfield stopping all stations and maybe Ipswich/Caboolture lines falling into a 2tph express pattern similar to the current peak hour runs. But that's all subject to the outcome of the NGR project which is sorta pending on the outcomes of CRR/NCL projects. Someone make up their mind on CRR lol.

[colinw]

  + 1

Although I'd also support 3tph (20 min) on both patterns. Ipswich & Caboolture definitely deserve better than 2tph.

[#Metro]

When Springfield actually has a railway line, same with Kippa Ring I expect to see 4tph Kippa Ring-Springfield stopping all stations and maybe Ipswich/Caboolture lines falling into a 2tph express pattern similar to the current peak hour runs. But that's all subject to the outcome of the NGR project which is sorta pending on the outcomes of CRR/NCL projects. Someone make up their mind on CRR lol.

Just out of curiosity, if were were to install SACEM on QR would that be possible and how much would it cost roughly and would it increase the number of trains we can run on the system, particularly in peak? I know that signalling is expensive, but so are peak hour capacity upgrades too.

[#Metro]

Just out of curiosity, if were were to install SACEM on QR would that be possible and how much would it cost roughly and would it increase the number of trains we can run on the system, particularly in peak? I know that signalling is expensive, but so are peak hour capacity upgrades too.

It just came to me also that another limitation on SEB as rail would be dwells at Central (assuming that you would tunnel through to Central rather than dump at Roma Street). These typically take a few minutes and would further limit capacity. Not sure how trains are going to turn around with sub 3 minute frequencies.... stepped crew would work but only just.

[#Metro]

You need to look at it from a 1970s perspective.

Thanks for this perspective Colin W, it gives colour to the story. And it also points out that technical requirements are often secondary to political ones.
It also reinforces why Merivale Bridge came about - not because it is a good alignment but because of historical reasons. We should not seek to re-enforce
what is a legacy route into the Brisbane CBD. 

[colinw]

When Springfield actually has a railway line, same with Kippa Ring I expect to see 4tph Kippa Ring-Springfield stopping all stations and maybe Ipswich/Caboolture lines falling into a 2tph express pattern similar to the current peak hour runs. But that's all subject to the outcome of the NGR project which is sorta pending on the outcomes of CRR/NCL projects. Someone make up their mind on CRR lol.

Just out of curiosity, if were were to install SACEM on QR would that be possible and how much would it cost roughly and would it increase the number of trains we can run on the system, particularly in peak? I know that signalling is expensive, but so are peak hour capacity upgrades too.

When advanced signalling comes to Brisbane, it will almost certainly NOT be a proprietary thing like SACEM or some evolution of the existing QR ATP that was built by Westinghouse.  I am aware of investigations of exactly these kinds of proprietary solutions for the SEQ network, and they have all reached a dead end. 

What I expect we will do is follow Auckland, Sydney and (probably) Melbourne in moving first to ERTMS Level 1 and then ERTMS Level 2.  Expect it to start as a Level 1 rollout across the system, followed by a Level 2 pilot on a relatively self contained single line (In QLD, Ferny Grove would be ideal for the L2 pilot. NSW is doing Sutherland to Cronulla and Victoria is talking about doing it on the Sandringham line).

To get an overview of what I'm talking about, read this:
http://rtsa.com.au/assets/2008/07/rtsa-vic-jun08-ertms-systemwide.pdf

Alternatively something based on one of the major vendors' CBTC (Communications Based Train Control) offerings might be a goer, however those are all proprietary solutions at present.  CBTC standardisation is being driven by New York Transit, who are issuing a spec for multi-vendor interoperable CBTC for the Subway, and with a view to extending it to heavily used commuter lines like the LIRR & Metro North.  My own employer has applied both CBTC and ERTMS to mixed traffic suburban commuter lines, in Sao Paulo & Madrid respectively.