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The Northern Grid - design your own and post!

Started by #Metro, March 24, 2012, 14:47:17 PM

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#Metro

The Core Frequent Network (CFN) is the bare basics absolute minimum line-haul bus and rail lines required to link the suburbs to the CBD and the major suburban centres around Brisbane to each other. The CFN is the necessary precursor and precondition to allow wider feeder services to be created across Brisbane.

I've noticed a lot of discussion in other thread and members only threads about services around Chermside and the northern suburbs. There is already decent frequency as far as Northgate station, and given the distance from the CBD, I don't think it is necessary to wait until the upgrade of the Northgate-Caboolture section of the railway for bus services, in particular, feeder bus services, to be improved.

The northern suburbs has a nice grid network to it.
So perhaps a little competition/game/challenge - design a network for the northern suburbs.

Rules:

1. Try and use google maps or nearmaps
2. Colours -

red (high frequency BUZ) - every 15 minutes all day, 6am-11.30 pm 7 days
green ( high frequency but not BUZ) - every 15 minutes, 7 am - 7pm, 7 days
light green (high frequency but not BUZ) - every 15 minutes, 7 am - 7pm, 5
blue - 30 minutes service, different weekend timetable
black - welfare/coverage routes

3. Line thickness - use thicker lines for higher frequency, thinner for less

Goals:

* Minimise cost
* Maximise frequency
* Use as few routes as possible

Also make a note as well of the distances for each of your lines so that we can tally them up and derive a relative cost for each proposal.



Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

somebody

I was going to start such a thread too!

A few comments for Bracken Ridge:
- BUZ 330 has to be assumed
- Terminating at Bald Hills is pointless outside of peak hour.  Extend to Strathpine for the Westfield.
- PM 331 orbiting the other direction around Bracken Ridge seems sensible.  If the route is to remain.
- Level Crossing at Telegraph Rd is a real problem.

HappyTrainGuy

Alot of the core is pretty much already established. Its just hidden in the poor frequency of bus and rail services, routes going all the way to the city, questionable terminus locations and poor running hours. Take the 338/359. The 359 should copy the 338 loop of Eatons Hills-run to Strathpine railway station and terminating at the bus interchange near by. Make both routes a 30 minute frequency and a CFN has just been established between Strathpine and Eatons Hill/Albany Creek. If Trouts Road goes up cull the 359 at Albany Creek and buz the 338 to provide a CFN between the Strathpine bus interchange to Chermside bus interchange via Strathpine railway station, Albany Creek bus interchange, the trouts road railway station (if deemed a stopping location) and the Aspley bus interchange.

338 Currently
359 Currently

If the rail frequency gets boosted and especially if running patterns were modified ie exp the mains to the city stopping at Northgate/Eagle Junction then I'd want to see the 330/330 buz culled at Chermside with additional services put into feeding the heavy rail lines. Strathpine bus interchange to Sandgate bus/rail interchange via Bracken Ridge, Bald Hills Station and Deagon station.
Bracken Ridge Loop East
Bracken Ridge Loop West
When/if the property developers at Carseldine feed into telegraph road then consider running a southern Bracken Ridge-West Taigum-Carseldine station feeder service.

The 335/340 needs to be culled at Chermside bus interchange with both routes travelling the 340 route from Gympie Road. Feed those people into the heavy rail just down the road. Modded 335 Chermside route

Retain the 333 but increase the vehicle capacity with longer buses. Some mods might be needed at the Chermside interchange for that. Maybe consider a Aspley-City express service via Chermside interchange/Northern Busway to help get people off the 345/333 buz/cope with the additional people now feeding into those two interchanges.

The 336/337 needs a boost to a 30 minute frequency (peak 15/20 mins) as it provides so many locations (6 or 7 schools, 3 major interchanges along with servicing shopping centres, corner shops, RSLs/clubs and areas with poor frequency). It also duplicates running along corridors already serviced so the need to increase other services isn't needed as much ie sharing the load.

If I get some time I'll draw some maps during the weke.

somebody

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on March 24, 2012, 17:25:04 PM
The 335/340 needs to be culled at Chermside bus interchange with both routes travelling the 340 route from Gympie Road. Feed those people into the heavy rail just down the road. Modded 335 Chermside route

Retain the 333 but increase the vehicle capacity with longer buses. Some mods might be needed at the Chermside interchange for that. Maybe consider a Aspley-City express service via Chermside interchange/Northern Busway to help get people off the 345/333 buz/cope with the additional people now feeding into those two interchanges.
I think we should accept the 325/335/339 being taken out of Chermside AND RBH.  Run from the Cultural Centre through KGSBS, Newmarket, Webster Rd, Kirby Rd to Taigum.  Arguably a different route in peak to take advantage of the Northern Busway (I can feel the eyes roll from here!).

Extend either the 333 or 370 to Chermside markets via Hamilton Rd & Webster Rd, and push the 340 back to Gympie Rd to Chermside.  I'm OK with the 340 being truncated at Chermside.  An alternate idea is sticking to the current 340 route, just truncating at Chermside and increasing frequency and NOT extending the other routes.  I'm OK with either so long as what I suggested above proceeds.

HappyTrainGuy

I'm all for the 335 being taken out of the RBH busway starting yesterday haha. If a service could connect to the 335 along that stretch of road then I'm all for the 335 doing a 339 to Newmarket. What about linking the 333 to the Chermside markets and then looping it around back to Chermside via Ellison Road/Newman road. I think it wouldn't be worth extending the 333 but extending the 370 to utilise the stops on Hamilton Road (similar to how the 77 operates from Gympie road but it might add some confusion when trying to work out what stop to go to from the interchange) might be worth wild if its done on a 30 min frequency minimum. Combine it with an improved 336/337 it could act as a quick little local feeder and provide a steady 15/30 min frequency where there has previously random services.

#Metro

I think there is a case for the extension of the 333 and 345 to terminate at one of the rail stations (Zillmere, Geebung or best of all due to the frequency, Northgate). Why to they terminate the bus at the shops and don't connect it to the train station?

It doesn't make sense.

359 must be implemented as a matter of CFN priority.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

#Metro

#6
I think there is a really BIG case for getting the 333 extended along Hamilton and Northgate roads to Northgate rail station.
I think it is ludicrous that the bus stops 1-2km from the train station, but doesn't connect to it.

OR at least a connection from Chermside to Northgate station

Adding a connection here
(1) would be cheap to do, (LOL, cheaper than upgrading the entire Caboolture line)
(2) be an immediate and very large mobility gain because now all North Coast Line and all Shorncliffe line is connected to Chermside and Chermside has a large menu of buses to connect to.
(3) There is 15 minute frequency at Northgate, which means that connections are easy.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

HappyTrainGuy

Quote from: tramtrain on March 24, 2012, 18:48:34 PM
I think there is a case for the extension of the 333 and 345 to terminate at one of the rail stations (Zillmere, Geebung or best of all due to the frequency, Northgate). Why to they terminate the bus at the shops and don't connect it to the train station?

It doesn't make sense.

359 must be implemented as a matter of CFN priority.

I like it. There are no bus services between Kirby Road and Gympie road via Robinson road. The best interchange would be the 345 to Geebung along Robinson Road. They frequently dead run to refuel/change shifts/what ever that way to the depot anyway. Zillmere wouldn't be ideal as its past the bus depot along with having terriable accesse due to the road layout.

#Metro

GRR! The intersection between sandgate road and Northgate road is traffic calmed!
There is alternative access further up Sandgate Road though...

Car parks can be resumed at Northgate to make way for a bus interchange.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

somebody

Quote from: tramtrain on March 24, 2012, 19:03:07 PM
I think there is a really BIG case for getting the 333 extended along Hamilton and Northgate roads to Northgate rail station.
I don't like it that much.  It will reduce the reliability, and you have yet another route which doesn't know what it is.  Is it a cross town route or a radial route?  It also duplicated the 325 between Newman Rd and Chermside shops.

#Metro

#10
But how is that consistent with the 325 and 335 both doing L-shaped turns to connect with trains?
Both of these routes are HOURLY. Shocking! That's no good.

I think it would be an idea to make 325 and 335 into frequent feeder services terminating at Chermside. They can't have that many pax on board if they are hourly. Citybound pax can go into 333 and if need be more 333's can be put on.

Take a look at this!
TERRIBLE




Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

somebody

Quote from: tramtrain on March 24, 2012, 19:45:33 PM
But how is that consistent with the 325 and 335 both doing L-shaped turns to connect with trains?
Not a big fan of that either.  If there was a single Webster Rd route to Taigum, then the 325 would be truncated at Chermside.  Or PCH!

HappyTrainGuy

Quote from: tramtrain on March 24, 2012, 19:45:33 PM
But how is that consistent with the 325 and 335 both doing L-shaped turns to connect with trains?
Both of these routes are HOURLY. Shocking! That's no good.

I think it would be an idea to make 325 and 335 into frequent feeder services terminating at Chermside. They can't have that many pax on board if they are hourly. Citybound pax can go into 333 and if need be more 333's can be put on.

Take a look at this!
TERRIBLE






Currently 325/326or7/337 to Geebung then train to Northgate? There's also the option to feed east but it's not the best option. If you want to transfer to the shorncliffe line the 335 would also be an option if it was extended. Might be quicker than the 325 as its more direct so to say.

achiruel

Quote from: tramtrain on March 24, 2012, 19:03:07 PM
I think there is a really BIG case for getting the 333 extended along Hamilton and Northgate roads to Northgate rail station.
I think it is ludicrous that the bus stops 1-2km from the train station, but doesn't connect to it.

OR at least a connection from Chermside to Northgate station

Adding a connection here
(1) would be cheap to do, (LOL, cheaper than upgrading the entire Caboolture line)
(2) be an immediate and very large mobility gain because now all North Coast Line and all Shorncliffe line is connected to Chermside and Chermside has a large menu of buses to connect to.
(3) There is 15 minute frequency at Northgate, which means that connections are easy.

I like the concept.  Not sure that extending the 333 is the way to do it, but a Chermside <-> Northgate connection definitely needs to exist for the reasons you stated.  How many extra buses would be needed to (i) run it as a 333 extension or (ii) as a Northgate-Chermside shuttle?

Also some kind of traffic light priority turning right into Sandgate Rd would be desirable.

#Metro

Quote
Currently 325/326or7/337 to Geebung then train to Northgate? There's also the option to feed east but it's not the best option. If you want to transfer to the shorncliffe line the 335 would also be an option if it was extended. Might be quicker than the 325 as its more direct so to say.
   

These routes are neither legible nor frequent and the connecting train stations are not frequent either. Due to geometry, Northgate station has the highest frequency and best mobility for connections. Ideally the connecting bus would also have a matching frequency, and also be reasonably direct and fast, so I think Northgate is the best and a BUZ connector works.

I just don't understand this - if this was a bus, it would be rushing to the busway. I don't know of any buses that die within a kilometre or two of the busway. So why is it OK for trains? It is just ridiculous that it takes 45 minutes (and when you add in waiting time, even longer) to travel 4km in a straight line!!
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

HappyTrainGuy

What about a 338 extension along Hamilton road leaving the door open for a 333 extension to somewhere else if needed??

#Metro

Where is this 'elsewhere'?
338 is hourly, it's a local service, it's illegible.

333 BUZ has
- Matching frequency
- High profile
- The span of hours that matches the span of 15 minute frequency at Northgate

I really do not understand TL's philosophy of running high frequency buses into busways, but then hourly bus routes or other rotten apple services into railway stations. A bus approaching a busway should be treated the same as a bus approaching a rail station. In both cases passengers are fed into class A ROW.

TL needs to look beyond steel wheels and rubber tyres and look at mode neutral LINES.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

somebody

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on March 25, 2012, 14:19:56 PM
What about a 338 extension along Hamilton road leaving the door open for a 333 extension to somewhere else if needed??
Better than the 333 extension idea.

What market is the 333 extension actually catering to?  People don't go to railway stations as there destination, but to get somewhere else.  Other stations are served from Chermside.  Sandgate Rd services (306, 308, 310, 315, 322) also serve interim markets.  +320, 325, GCL.  I think there's enough routes in the area.

#Metro

#18
 ???
Quote
What market is the 333 extension actually catering to?  People don't go to railway stations as there destination, but to get somewhere else.  Other stations are served from Chermside.  Sandgate Rd services (306, 308, 310, 315, 322) also serve interim markets.  +320, 325, GCL.  I think there's enough routes in the area.

All these services are shockers? Why are we defending mediocrity? Toronto has no problem running services at high frequency in straight lines to rail station. I might add that these feeders operate like this as far as 15-20 km from the city core as well, so it is not just about density. Why can't we - we have the same grid in the northern suburbs.

http://transportblog.co.nz/2012/03/24/guest-post-feeder-buses-in-toronto/

333 is a CFN line. It has the frequency, span and legibility that none of the other bus routes that serve Chermside have.
It takes passengers from any bus route that enters Chermside and also cross town pax and takes them between Northgate Rail (interchange point) and Chermside (major local centre). That way you get two way travel on the one line. Pax going between Chermside and the rail system and pax going between Chermside and the city.

338 is not a CFN line, it has extremely poor frequency, terrible span and shocking legibility. Nobody catches it or knows where it
goes. It is a welfare/coverage route that spends its time winding about the suburbs. Why bother?

I am open to the idea of a seperate cross town service, but observe that it too will have to have BUZ-like characteristics to match the frequency at Northgate. Simon is right in a sense that it doesn't *have* to be 333, but it doesn't have to be 338 either or welfare/coverage routes, something decent is needed and the CFN line connection seems to be the best match. Does it have to be 333? No, but it seems the best option so far, unless a new crosstown route is proposed.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

somebody

What's wrong with the 308's route?

Only it's frequency and operating hours are limited.

It feeds Toombul.  What's the need to feed Northgate?

#Metro

Simon,

This is a good point.

I actually agree with you here about the 308 - that's the DFO bus, I hadn't realised that it went from Chermside as every time I catch it, I get a train into Toombul and connect there. Northgate is closer, but Toombul is a bus/rail interchange as well. If the weekend services were boosted and the GCL broken between Brookside and Toombul into a self-contained line, and services boosted, that would work, nicely in fact.  :)

I'm a bit uneasy about the GCL running between Hamilton Road and Rode Road- I'd rather have lines flow across and stick to main arterials east-west because it means that people don't need to look at a map and it's logical, particularly if you are an ex-motorist.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

HappyTrainGuy

#21
Quote from: tramtrain on March 25, 2012, 16:14:14 PM
All these services are shockers?

It's the northside. Duuuuuhhhhh......... haha  :P

Quote from: tramtrain on March 25, 2012, 14:24:57 PM
Where is this 'elsewhere'?
338 is hourly, it's a local service, it's illegible.

The elsewhere could be anywhere near by. There are black spots to the west/north that could get more patronage from a Buz than the Hamilton road corridor which is just applauling sitting in congestion during peak hour (Mostly between Sandgate road/Chermside RSL simply due to how roads feed the single lanes). Send it to Taigum interchange (Which you could then cull the 330 at if needed), send it to Aspley interchange via Ellison/Robinson Roads, do the backstreets of West Chermside/Zillmere etc.

Obviously boost the 338 frequency to half hourly at the minimum. That can also be applied to many other routes in the area which can be done by culling/removing/rerouting certain routes at interchange points such as the 330/340. But to do all that properly and have better feeder services and better connections its still the two rail lines north of Northgate that need the major frequency of 4tph to allow for a better design of the bus network. A better rail network would enable a much better bus network.

Oh, and FYI, 325 bus Chermside-Geebung Station transfer to Caboolture-Ipswich train and arrive at Northgate is only a 20 min trip including the transfer wait. Opposite way though..... that's a 12 minute trip if the 325 is delayed 2 minutes otherwise its a 40-70 minute trip :P

#Metro

Well the issue I have with the 'boost everything' philosophy is that action comes about from the narrowing, not broadening of focus'.
It is actually not necessary to boost caboolture line frequency (although it will be helpful), to improve feeder bus services in that area simply because

1. Many buses are hourly, trains beyond Northgate are half hourly - taking a hourly bus to half hourly would be a MAJOR improvement.
2. Services can be timed to meet trains when you don't have $$$ to boost the frequency of everything
3. The major issue is connection of lines and low frequency and span of the bus services

Funny how we got into a discussion about bus services and improving them when everyone in the other thread seemed to think boosting Cab line frequency was the must do thing precursor before anything could happen...

Now, this is NOT the same as saying 'Don't increase Cab line frequency' which I am almost certain those who see the world in two boxes - FOR Cab upgrade or AGAINST Cab upgrade - might assume. What I am saying is that there isn't reason as to why bus connections in that region cannot be improved now. We don't have to wait for Cab line boosts, and certainly not for anything on the line before Northgate.
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

#Metro

I have to say, I like Simon's idea about the 308 and GCL (if it need be modified, OK).
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

#Metro

Quote
It's the northside. Duuuuuhhhhh......... haha  Tongue

Hey, HTG, would you like a rocket to your house? LOL  :hg :co3
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

somebody

Here's my proposal for 325, 335 break up:  To be honest, I think just having a BUZ 325 in KGSBS and truncating the 335 in Chermside might be a better option.  I don't much like the Church Rd bit of the 325 though.


somebody

Combining the 308 and 338 seem like it is worth considering also.

HappyTrainGuy

There's nothing wrong with using the boost philosophy if its done in the correct way. If they extend the 359 to Strathpine and make a slight timetable mod that's a 30 min frequency between Albany Creek-Strathpine. Make both routes 30 minute frequencies and there's a 15 min line between Albany Creek-Strathpine. The 4.41 outbound 359 from Roma Street gets you to the stop before the terminus which is shared with the 338 at ~5.30 (usually about 5.40) compared to the train leaving Roma Street at 4.45 transfering to the bus litterally within a minute (Not always possible, previous train is at 4.33 arriving at 5.12 wth a 10 min wait for the bus) getting you to the same stop at 5.38 and yet the 357/359 is at a 10 minute frequency from the city. Make the 359 more twisty/service more areas/add an interchange at Albany Creek to get the people out that way off the 359 and on to the trains.

Combine the 308 and 338 to run the same path on a 30 minute frequency and BAM! 15 minute corridor established.

Quote from: tramtrain on March 25, 2012, 17:20:20 PM
Quote
It's the northside. Duuuuuhhhhh......... haha  Tongue

Hey, HTG, would you like a rocket to your house? LOL  :hg :co3

You'll love this. I actually used to live about 150-200m from one. Very very very rarely did I ever catch it hahahaha!

somebody

Why 359 to Strathpine?  350 makes more sense to me: run from Pinaroo along Albany Creek Rd then South Pine Rd to Strathpine.  Although limitations with that are Beckett Rd to Keong Rd is virtually unpopulated and something else needs to be provided between Aspley interchange and Beckett Rd: 338 increase might do, or extend the 345 here.

HappyTrainGuy

I included the 359 because the 357/359 can be merged as they are basically a duplicate of the 338. 357 needs to feed Brendal-Eatons Hill to Strathpine rather than taking them by bus all the way to the city. If and when Trouts Road goes up the 359 should be culled at Albany Village and or feed into Trouts Road with the 338 getting buzed or ramped up to a 15 min frequency. The 308/338 could then also then be merged to form one 15 minute route to the DFO instead of the 338 to Toombul and 308 to Toombul and beyond. However I'm not too fused on the actual running.

somebody

I don't think the 357 and 359 can be combined.  Outside of peak hour Old Northern Rd only has the 338 which is just awful for radial journeys.  It's something of a gap in the network IMO.

You really don't like radial routes!

HappyTrainGuy

Haha. They're alright but from the city to Zone 5 on the northside...... just not needed.

Another option is to buz the 338 and retain both numbers for a 30 minute loop route. 359 weaves through Albany Creek towards Albany Village and then direct to the City via Northen road while 357 travels direct to Albany Village and then back to the city via weaving through Albany Creek. Anyone futher transfer to the 338.

somebody

Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on March 25, 2012, 20:18:55 PM
Haha. They're alright but from the city to Zone 5 on the northside...... just not needed.

Another option is to buz the 338 and retain both numbers for a 30 minute loop route. 359 weaves through Albany Creek towards Albany Village and then direct to the City via Northen road while 357 travels direct to Albany Village and then back to the city via weaving through Albany Creek. Anyone futher transfer to the 338.
What's the sensible alternative from Old Northern Rd?  Going backwards to Strathpine?  Enogerra?  The latter doesn't save many bus-km and is a disincentive to PT use.

HappyTrainGuy

#33
What do you mean exactly?

With the 2 loop routes (clockwise/anti clockwise) and a Strathpine to DFO via Albany Creek, Aspley, Chermside, Toombul buz 338 people living at Eatons Hill should be fed into the local train line to get to the city/southside/western connections rather than travel there by bus along the corridor. If you live at Eatons Hill and work at Enoggra catch the 338 buz to Albany Village then jump onto the 359 (Clockwise loop) which would travel to the city along Nothern Road. To get home catch the 357 (anticlockwise loop) which would travel along Northen Road to interchange at Albany Village to the 338 to Eatons Hill. For someone living off Narrabeen road that works at Strathpine they should catch the 359 loop to Albany Village then transfer to the 338 buz to Strathpine. The only flaw that I can see is transfering to Strathpine having to detour Eatons Hill but then again that's how its still and has always been.

End foam mode.

somebody

#34
Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on March 25, 2012, 21:36:34 PM
What do you mean exactly?
What I mean is it sounded like you wanted to remove the 359's connection to the city.  And the 357's.

Even though it's a long bus route, there is little scope for feeding rail.  Terminating at Enogerra would only promote car use.

HappyTrainGuy

#35
Quote from: Simon on March 26, 2012, 08:38:11 AM
Quote from: HappyTrainGuy on March 25, 2012, 21:36:34 PM
What do you mean exactly?
What I mean is it sounded like you wanted to remove the 359's connection to the city.  And the 357's.

Even though it's a long bus route, there is little scope for feeding rail.  Terminating at Enogerra would only promote car use.

Ah sorry, I meant running from the City and going no futher than the Albany Village area running on a clockwise/anticlockwise route. Anyone wanting to go futher to Strathpine/Eatons Hill/Brendale would have to transfer at Albany Village. For that to happen though there would need to be a frequent route such as a 338 running every 15/20 mins.

#Metro

I see the main lines (not the word lines - mode neutral) in the northern grid as:

North-South
Old Northern Road - BUZ 359/350 on this
Gympie Road - BUZ 333/330
Sandgate Road - This needs a BUZ on it
The Caboolture Line
The Shorncliffe Line

Between these lines you can string up East-West routes (I'll post later)
Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

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