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Author Topic: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.  (Read 8452 times)

Offline newbris

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2012, 11:33:45 PM »
There are a quite a few cyclists on the weekends through the area, the idea should not be dismissed.
General bicycle rack increases can also be very effective.

I go riding in that area a bit, it is nice scenery, coffee etc.

Not dismissing them in their entirety just their ability to contribute to the current public transport dilemma locals have with north/south journeys. Apologies if that isn't what you were referring to. I cycle to work every day so am familiar as well and agree some great rides can be had. Like the buses west/east to the CBD is doable but north/south is a lot tougher. Citycycle is only really practical for forays into Rosalie Village in lower Paddington or for people attempting the long somewhat gradual slope from Caxton St up through Given and onto Latrobe.

North/South trips up and over the high ridge lines are for keen MAMILS only and are not worth citycycle stations imo as much as I would like them.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2012, 11:58:47 PM »
My comments so far (more detailed ones will follow when I have time)

* Loop symbolises good transit, but in practice might not provide decent mobility, also scheduling problems and reliability issues from the geometry. (See Human Transit book on Loops).

* Geometric constraints - many streets have traffic calming, this works against decent PT

* Generalised bus upgrade package for the area, starting with a rapid transit line (Core Frequent Network/BUZ) from UQ/Indro to Toowong then directly up Metroad 5 to Brookside. This will link major centres and trip generators on Metroad 5. This should be first priority above all else in the area.

* BUZ the 350 and or 359

* Steam ironing of some of the routes and consolidation (amalgamate 476 and 475) to simplify the network.

* A new North-South route may be possible, but is subject to geometric/geographical/topographical constraints/traffic calming, but the best I could do was to draw a route that begins at Milton train station (interchange) travels up Baroona Road to Paddington Central, up Stafford Street into Arthur Tce and Fulcher Rd then into Waterworks road to serve Ashgrove, then along Ashgrove Avenue, down Kelvin Grove Road, down Herston Road and terminating at RBWH which is a MAJOR trip generator and interconnection point. Speed is paramount as the slower the service is, the better car looks, the fewer people catch the bus, the lower frequency and waste of money it becomes.


This also might allow 360/390 (can't remember which one does the weird deviation) to be steam-ironed.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2012, 12:02:58 AM »
In general I would suggest improving the current routes (cheaper and easier to add frequency to that then an entirely new route) and once that is done, look at the merits of a Milton-Paddington-Ashgrove-RBWH bus service (i'll post a map later).

Wherever possible, a new route should add new mobility to the network or strengthen core frequent routes already in place.
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2012, 12:12:58 AM »
Quote
Four local schools (St Josephs, Milton SS, Petrie Tce SS, Rainworth SS)

Local schools show narrow peaking demand (morning and afternoon) so would be better served by dedicated
school bus services or by boosting existing east-west routes frequency and span.

Ithaca Swimming Pool and skate park
Suncorp Stadium
Milton Train Station
CityCycle station (Park Road)
The proposed Park Road CityCat Terminal (election commitment from Ray Smith and Yvonne
Li)
Sunday Bardon Markets on Baroona Road
Bus services in Red Hill that connect residents to services in Ashgrove / The Gap


Quote
11 local shopping precincts:
o Bardon shops
o Rainworth shops
o Rosalie Village
o Baroona Road Shops
o Park Road Shops
o The Barracks
o Caxton Street
o Given Tce shops
o Red Hill shops
o Paddington Central
o Latrobe Tce shops

The problem with many of these destinations is that they are on existing bus routes, but those routes are not frequent. This suggests steam ironing, simplifying the network, adding frequency and span to these existing routes, rather than introducing brand new services.

A stop could be added to Caxton Street, using the existing bus stop outside Suncorp Stadium. It is infuriating how the bus flies past the main restaurant strip in Caxton Street and the next stop is deep within paddington. The connection in the evening can be closed so walking from Roma St isn't always an option. The time added to the route by adding 1 extra stop would be around 40 seconds...

A new north-south route from Milton to RBWH would permit interchange to Chermside bound services at RBWH and also QUT.
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Offline newbris

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2012, 12:13:51 AM »
My comments so far (more detailed ones will follow when I have time)

...* A new North-South route may be possible, but is subject to geometric/geographical/topographical constraints/traffic calming, but the best I could do was to draw a route that begins at Milton train station (interchange) travels up Baroona Road to Paddington Central, up Stafford Street into Arthur Tce and Fulcher Rd then into Waterworks road to serve Ashgrove, then along Ashgrove Avenue, down Kelvin Grove Road, down Herston Road and terminating at RBWH which is a MAJOR trip generator and interconnection point. Speed is paramount as the slower the service is, the better car looks, the fewer people catch the bus, the lower frequency and waste of money it becomes.

...

Just a note that Stafford street has big speed bumps I think. The route I chose is traffic calming free with existing bus stops and no constraints. It also serves the Suncorp Stadium/Caxton St/Barracks end and the Paddington Central end without traversing the whole Caxton/Given/Latrobe route (of course this isn't strictly necessary and it could be straightened out by going up Fernberg Rd and turning right into Given Tce). I don't think there is a need to go as far west as Stafford St as it is an easy walk from the Enoggera Tce turnoff down to Paddington Central. I think it should go up Enoggera Tce, into Arthur, past the Broncos Club and Ithaca TAFE, Ashgrove Village and beyond.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 12:22:19 AM by newbris »

Offline #Metro

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2012, 12:23:01 AM »
This is the concept I came up with, i'll let others comment and refine it.
I think the main priority is to

1. Core Frequent Network route (591 from Indro or UQ to Brookside via metroad 5)
2. Fix up local routes through the area, frequency, span of hours, directness etcetera - review and consultation with TransLink like they did in New Farm
3. New routes

Here's the concept map:



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Offline newbris

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2012, 12:27:28 AM »
Ellena is extremely steep with calming and Stafford has calming. I love your idea of extending to Newmarket Shops and Kelvin Grove College/Kelvin Grove Urban Village/QUT/RBH.

Similar on larger roads:



Offline #Metro

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2012, 12:32:01 AM »
I'm trying to keep it as direct, straight and on arterials as possible while managing to hit the shopping centres and interchange points as well...

Can you make your map bigger please? The resolution is a little low for me to resolve
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Offline newbris

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2012, 12:36:41 AM »
I'm trying to keep it as direct, straight and on arterials as possible while managing to hit the shopping centres and interchange points as well...

Can you make your map bigger please? The resolution is a little low for me to resolve

Yeah, I am aiming for the same thing, not the easiest place to do it is it. The Fernberg/Given Tce route is far better through lower Paddington as larger arterials, no traffic calming and not too steep. It misses Rosalie Village but it is a pleasant quick flat tree lined walk along to it.

The northern side of Latrobe is better using the larger, flatter Enoggera Tce into Arthur as this keeps it on the arterials and avoids hilly traffic calmed residential streets.  It will be a quicker route using these roads vs bumpy back streets. Again it is a very short walk to Paddington Central from the Enoggera turnoff. Apologies if I am telling you stuff you already know.

Will try to adjust map now....

Edit:
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 12:55:16 AM by newbris »

Offline Yvonne4Toowong

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2012, 08:13:05 AM »
Good morning and a sincere thank you to every one who has taken the time to review the first draft of the proposed bus loop. :D This is an idea that was floated to me by Rosalie Residents and as I want to be a representative of the Toowong Ward residents I have taken up their request.

There is certainly merit in a cross suburban bus service particularly because the current services simply move into the city.  Even then, the 471 is particularly unreliable and is not frequent enough in the mornings and evenings. This proposed loop won't fix that but it is a just a piece of the puzzle, so to speak, to help fix public transport in these western suburbs. 

It would be a good idea to get this loop across to Kelvin Grove QUT as since I have been consulting with locals, there has been many requests for a route that connects to KG. 

This proposed loop will also take Bardon/Paddington students to the newly announced city cat terminal and get them to UQ much quicker. It has been a sore point for years that getting to UQ means going all the way into the city and back again. This proposed bus loop and Park Road city cat terminal will resolve those issues (albeit not immediate).

Keep the comments coming as it can only serve to make the proposal stronger and more relevant. Together with the other suggestions to improve the other local routes, only good can come of this discussion.
Yvonne

Offline ozbob

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2012, 08:20:08 AM »
Welcome, and thanks for looking at public transport issues.

 :-c :-t
Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2012, 09:03:42 AM »
SurfRail shows the most critical missing bits is frequency on Baroona Road and a new orbital route.

I'm sure residents are asking for a loop because (a) they want it to go everywhere and (b) don't want to transfer.
A route that does this will be (c) too big and therefore (d) cost a lot leading to (e) low frequency and poor service. All these things
arise from geometry - the shape of things.

If you look closely at SurfRail's image compared to The Proposal, the proposed loop is already mostly covered by existing services. This gives us a clue on how to solve the puzzle pieces and how they should fit together.


As SurfRail's image shows, the important thing isn't to have one bus do a loop, but to have loop trips (or at least sections of them, since no-one travels in circles) possible by transfer. You can already see that the proposed Core Frequent Network route (591) in purple, coronation drive bus services (red) and the 385 BUZ (red) all have sufficient frequency and close to form a loop in SurfRail's map.


This is why the introduction of a direct route up metroad 5 is crucial - even though it may not be obvious at first, because despite the fact that the individual route goes nowwhere through the heart of paddington, and indeed is a direct straight line, the network it forms with the other services completes the puzzle. The purpose of any individual bus route should be to serve the network.

Introduction of a cross town connecting RBWH Herston to Milton (still have to get this service to touch Coro to allow onward connections to UQ) would solve the north-south travel issue and allow access to RBWH.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 09:13:38 AM by tramtrain »
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2012, 09:17:16 AM »
I will add some more detail later...
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Offline Gazza

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #53 on: March 21, 2012, 09:29:52 AM »
Hi,
Just one thing to bear in mind with any loop proposal is that often loops can be "symbolic" public transport, but not necessarily useful for day to day transport.

Often people (Eg locals) suggest a loop because it seems like a complete and elegant solution to the problem. In reality it mightn't be.

Loops can  be good on the large scale if they allow people to change vehicles to short cut around different points in a city and avoid having to go into the CBD. In this case, people don't travel around the whole loop, but say only a fraction of it
The Great Circle line is an example in Brisbane. Someone going from Garden City to Murrarie would have to go into the CBD on the busway and take a train back out to Murrarie if the Great Circle Line didn't exist. Thankfully it does, so people can shortcut.

Another example the Circle Line on the London Undeground, or the Yamanote Line in Tokyo.

Loops are often good if an individual wants to see a complete set of things all in the one route. The City Sights bus would be a good example. It visits all the major tourist attractions in inner Brisbane. A tourist isn't in a rush, so can just do the whole loop and get back to where they started.

The train which loops around Dreamworld is another example.

But in some situations, a loop might not work well. A loop around this part of Brisbane might connect a large number of local destinations (as the locals want), but will someone literally go around and tour every single one? Trying to do so, might make the loop so convoluted it actually defeats itself.

Also, if someone wants to get from A to B, people prefer to go in a straight line, and a loop cant do that.



For example on the map above, if someone wants to go from Paddington to the Rainworth Shops, does that mean they are in for a very long trip?

In some ways, I think just making the north south routes more frequent (In fact all routes more frequent) solves the problem most effectivley.

We can do that with a high frequency bus along Metroad 5, and a 2nd north south route similar to Tramtrains or newbris's suggestions.

What it does is sets up a grid so you take the bus north/south to the nearest east west route, get off, and then jump on the next east west bus. Or vice versa.
This does rely on all buses being frequent to minimise the time spent waiting to change, but hey, Canadian cities are able to do this!

A grid network lets you get from anywhere to anywhere, which is why they are perhaps the most useful way of setting up routes.

PS, I do really like Tramtrains proposal, very clean design and reflects establishing a sort of grid of routes in the area...Is the steepness of Ellena St bad enough to stop a bus? How does it compare to some of the steep bus routes in St Lucia as a benchmark.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #54 on: March 21, 2012, 09:45:04 AM »
Might do a physical inspection on the weekend... :-t

I hope the 591 is every 15 minutes and is a BUZ. 590 is good, but it needs frequency to permit decent transfer.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 09:52:44 AM by tramtrain »
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Offline newbris

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2012, 07:01:26 PM »
...PS, I do really like Tramtrains proposal, very clean design and reflects establishing a sort of grid of routes in the area...Is the steepness of Ellena St bad enough to stop a bus? How does it compare to some of the steep bus routes in St Lucia as a benchmark.

Don't know the maximum parameters of a bus but it is very steep. Another issue is a series of very high and deep speed bumps and then an uncontrolled intersection with Latrobe which could leave the bus hanging on the steep incline waiting for the car in front or for Latrobe to clear. The other issue is after the bus crosses Latrobe into Stafford. Stafford has another series of these speed bumps and then a narrow split road section that I don't think the bus would fit through without removing the residents parked cars.

I think the loop is better than what is there now but after reading what you all have said I can see why the north/south Milton to Ashgrove to RBH route is better and fits in better with the network.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #56 on: March 21, 2012, 08:15:12 PM »
I have had a more detailed look using aerial imagery (nearmap) and google maps.

There are some major challenges for any new service in this area, just because of the topography and road layout.

The RBWH - Milton connector IMHO is possible on Ellena Street (nearmap shows that it is a local arterial)
however the three traffic calming devices on that road need to be removed as does the dividing island at the Ellena / Latrobe Tce
intersection. Turning right on to Latrobe Tce could be made easier if the crossing outside Paddington Central was raised slightly so that traffic had to slow down
at this section. The bus has to stop for the bus stop there anyway, so not too much time will be lost by doing this.

The creek that is running through there presents a barrier to a direct service to RBWH (roads don't cross it), and if I send the
service up Stafford or Warrington or Morris street there are even more traffic calming devices that need to be removed plus
being local streets there are too many intersections which will bog down the bus and make it far too slow.

So I've opted to send the proposed north-south RBWH connector up Enoggera Tce now, which is a local arterial and then into Arthur Tce
which doesn't have traffic calming devices and is a decent run (phew!), then up fulcher road, into Waterworks Road and Ashgrove
using Stewart and Devoy Street to get into Ashgrove Avenue to Herston Road and terminate at RBWH turnaround.

I'd love to approach via Northey Street or connect to Bowen Hills Rail but this is impossible because the local arterial road connections
and ramps to the busway simply are not there.

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Offline SurfRail

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #57 on: March 25, 2012, 08:19:42 PM »
I'm only just now reading Human Transit, and there is a fantastic part about the phenomenon of politicians, people in the community or other prominent people saying "we need some kind of loop" for their area.  This proposal is not too dissimilar from the Maroon Cityglider in that respect.

People need to be very cautious about purely symbolic things like this, which only reinforces for me that the sensible money is on simply upgrading the frequency and directness of trunk routes (radial and cross-town).

Ride the G:

Offline Yvonne4Toowong

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2012, 05:50:22 PM »
Hello everyone and thank you again for all the feedback that has been provided - some are from left field, some not quite hitting the mark but in the main very constructive and a fine example of what puublic consultation is all about, something that I am committed to if I am elected on 28 April 2012.   If I am elected I will be guided by groups such as Rail - Back On Track to fine tune the suggestion to improve pubic transport in the Toowong Ward.  I like the ideas of improving the existing bus services that currently run but we still need a way of getting across suburbs, and not just a journey into the city, hence this idea from a member of the public.

This proposed loop does not have any streets with traffic calming and can be accessed by busses. I love the idea of an extra stop in Caxton Street which will assist with moving night time patrons out of Caxton Street. Extending the service to Kelvin Grove QUT is pivotal as nothing exists now to get students there from the western suburbs without going into the city.  Extending the loop to Wesley Hospital is also postive as it connects commuters to the Auchenflower train station as well.

The idea of raising the traffic island outside Paddington Central is very practical and this needs can also be done at the intersection of Nash and Baroona Roads in Rosalie where it is a nightmare trying to cross that intersection as a pedestrian.  :wlk

What's more exciting is the commitment to build the Park Road city cat terminal that will connect with the proposed bus loop allowing students from Paddington and Bardon to get to UQ more easily than going into the city. The proposed city cat terminal at Park Road will also boost business in that area which is vital in today's economy.

Having such a balance discussion is imperative to ensure a balance outcome is arrived at taking into account everyone's interests and expertise.

A warm thank you again
Yvonne  :-t

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2012, 06:02:21 PM »
Park Rd city cat terminal?  How long has that been talked about?  I'm pretty sure it was talked about the first time I was in Brisbane as an adult in 2005 - nearly 7 years ago!  I assumed it was dead.

Loops have issues with including extra destinations, like QUT KG, in that it makes it longer to get between the points where it was spliced in.

If you really think this should be served, why not have something direct and cross town.  Google suggests this for the journey.  Which isn't too much different to going via Normanby, itself only one extra stop from Roma St.  I can't imagine such a service outside of peak hour.

Offline Yvonne4Toowong

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2012, 06:08:36 PM »
Yes I was talking about a Park Road City Cat terminal when I was running for the Toowong Ward in 2008.  The current administration has had years to implement this iniative but has failed to do so despite peititions and requests from local businesses and residents.   Now there has been a funding commitment to build this by the Ray Smith team.

Offline #Metro

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2012, 06:27:49 PM »
An off topic question, remotely related to the area:

Are there plans/ideas for a green bridge in the area?

Connecting land street Toowong to Victoria Street, West End with a green bridge (bus,cycle,foot) would complete the grid in this section allowing cross-town buses from Carindale to travel down Old Cleveland Road to Stanley/Vulture streets and then up over the Bridge to Toowong. It would be orders of magnitude more economical to do this IMHO than TransApex Tunnel from Buranda to Toowong. And there is already a precedent for a bus only bridge- the Schonell Bridge

At the moment this trip is extremely hard to do on PT or by car without going via the CBD first due to the Brisbane river. Just a thought.

With regards to PT in the area, boosting services on Baroona Road, Metroad 5 and to a lesser degree 470 Milton Road will do wonders and may be better than a loop. Local Loops tend to have geometric issues - they're indirect - and for local trips I think the frequency needs to be rather high for them to be effective. See here http://www.humantransit.org/2009/04/seattle-transit-blog-is-reporting-some-grief-from-the-rainier-valley-area-in-southeast-seattle-regarding-king-county-metros.html

HumanTransit quote:

Title: why circulators (often) don't work
Quote
There's a much broader lesson here that I'm sure I'll come back to.  Localized interests (such as developers, community groups, and small city governments) tend to invent short routes -- "circulators" or "shuttles" -- because they are thinking about their particular transport problem in isolation.  Successful transit agencies, though, are always looking for how to serve these localized needs using longer routes that do many other things.  It's by combining markets, not by serving them separately, that successful transit corridors are made.

It may be better to sell a package of bus upgrades in the area with a map of proposals (must have a map, otherwise it is too hard to visualise). After all, people care about PT and mobility (freedom of movement in to any place and at any time) rather than whether the line the bus draws on a map is a circle or not.

If you still want to have it as a loop, that's fine, but whatever you do, I'd recommend against a one way loop like the West End 198.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 06:32:56 PM by tramtrain »
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Offline #Metro

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2012, 07:09:42 PM »
I have taken the image above and highlighted it with dots.
Existing frequent services 385, coro drive have been highlighted.

As you can see, the only place where the loop adds mobility to the network is on Baroona Road.
Everywhere else you can use an existing service or interchange to complete the trip. So a person at
Bardon wanting to go to Wesley Hospital would jump on a 385 and then change at Roma Street to a 444.
Because services are frequent, transferring is not an issue and the maximum waiting time is 15 minutes.

Loop trips will be possible within the suburb without an actual loop bus if a main line haul/trunk route BUZ
bus is placed on Metroad 5 lining Toowong & Indooroopilly to Brookside. The pink dots show how it is possible to do
a loop in the suburbs without an actual loop bus. This is possible using transfer
between high frequency services. This is great for residents in this area as they will want to go not only to the CBD but also Toowong/UQ and Indooroopilly which is outside the reach of a local loop service.

The red dots show where frequent services are not currently present - these might be areas to look at for improvements:

1. Metroad 5
2. Milton road and the 470
2. Baroona Road

Increasing services on these roads will allow anywhere to anywhere direct travel through a single connection AND also
allow travel to the CBD if desired.

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Offline Gazza

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Re: Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2012, 07:19:39 PM »
I agree with Tramtrain, if the main routes along the main roads were frequent, then you wouldn't need to have a loop....because you'd have something better... a grid network  ;D

IMO the two new routes needed are.
-A direct 'Metroad 5' BUZ
-A bus that goes Coro Drive, then turns up Park Rd, along Baroona Rd, Boundary Rd, Chiswick Rd, Simpsons Rd.

 

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