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Rosalie Bus Loop Proposal, feedback requested.

Started by ozbob, March 20, 2012, 07:13:12 AM

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ozbob

Ms. Yvonne Li, ALP candidate for Toowong Ward, has forwarded the flyer re a proposed Rosalie Bus Loop below for comment and any constructive improvements.

Cross suburban bus routes are very helpful and more are needed.

Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...
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somebody

Where's the map?  Description?

First impression isn't favourable - Getting between Coopers Camp Rd & Park Rd is a change at Roma St - easy.  Getting between Baroona Rd & Park Rd is getting on/off at Milton Rd/Park Rd/Baroona Rd and a short walk.

I actually think that the 475/6 should run I/B along Park Rd, Coro & North Quay.  It ultimately uses North Quay anyway.  Why the jiggery pokery?  The other possibility is to use KGSBS.  O/B route isn't bad.

Golliwog

But Coopers Camp to Park Rd via Roma St, while an easy connection, is by no means a direct route.
There is no silver bullet... but there is silver buckshot.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

somebody

Quote from: Golliwog on March 20, 2012, 08:10:59 AM
But Coopers Camp to Park Rd via Roma St, while an easy connection, is by no means a direct route.
True, but you can't have direct to everywhere.  Frequent connections make it acceptable.  Current services are marginal, I'll agree.

#Metro

We need a map- or map(s)- as will anyone who want to know about the proposal. This is essential because street geometry and topography matter a lot as do speed humps etc. Yvonne, do you have a map? Google Maps or similar?

We also need to make it clear that these are member's comments and feedback of a proposal and not an 'endorsement' of the candidate...

I'm not a TMR. Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

newbris

Thanks Bob. This sort of service is sorely needed. Very hard to move laterally through the area. Our family would be big users.

Self interest, but I think it should be extended to take in more of the residents and students in the Red Hill/Ithaca area including the Ithaca TAFE, Ithaca Creek State School....ie run along Arthur Tce. Would scoop up a lot of residents and students for little extra distance. Residents of Ashgrove could also walk down to Arthur Tce to use it.

If it ran down Arthur Tce in Red Hill our family would at least use it to:
- Get to Rosalie village for meals.
- Connect to Latrobe Tce for bus connections.
- Get to Latrobe/Given/Caxton for shopping/meals.
- Get to Pencil Park (Gregory Park) with the little ones.
- Get to Park Road for meals.
- Connect to the new citycat for days out.
- Get to cinemas/meals at the Barracks.
- Connect to the train station at Milton.
- Get to Lang Park to watch the Roar etc.
- Get to the Ithaca public pool.

newbris

Another point I might make is that having lived in both Rosalie Village and Ithaca the Ashgrove shops would be a large lateral trip generator in the area.

When living at Rosalie the small supermarket at the Paddington shops was used sometimes (or Baroona Rd or the Barracks) but you often find yourself at the Ashgrove Village shops given the 3 large supermarkets, 5 banks and numerous other services there. It is the large practical shopping village of the area where most of the others are focused on meals/entertainment. Ashgrove Village also has 9 cafes and a bunch of restaurants/take aways as well. Of course if doing a large supermarket shop most would still drive but the many other visits to the Ashgrove shops could be done by bus.

I would link Ashgrove Village with Ithaca TAFE, Bardon Shops, Latrobe Tce, Rosalie Village, Milton Train and Milton Citycat, the Barracks, Lang Park/Ithaca Pool and then Enoggera Tce.

somebody

So some circuitous and infrequent bus carrying hardly anyone?  I can't say I'm a fan.

#Metro

It is hard to comment on this proposal because it is a description of destinations rather than a route or route options.

Where will the bus go?
Which streets exactly?

Also a single bus route needs to be designed to fit into the wider network and wider context of the services that operate in this area
- the network carries people, single routes or line merely serve this larger aim.
I'm not a TMR. Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

SurfRail

This sounds like a rehash of the 365/366 and 368/369 Ashgrove loop services, which were so bad that even BT decided they should be cut.

Legibility, frequency, integration with other services. 

We probably need a map to have a decent look.
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ozbob

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Golliwog

Quote from: Simon on March 20, 2012, 08:18:10 AM
Quote from: Golliwog on March 20, 2012, 08:10:59 AM
But Coopers Camp to Park Rd via Roma St, while an easy connection, is by no means a direct route.
True, but you can't have direct to everywhere.  Frequent connections make it acceptable.  Current services are marginal, I'll agree.
True, you can't have direct to everywhere. But I still think trying to get everyone to go via Roma St isn't going to work.
There is no silver bullet... but there is silver buckshot.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

somebody

Quote from: Golliwog on March 20, 2012, 11:33:59 AM
True, you can't have direct to everywhere. But I still think trying to get everyone to go via Roma St isn't going to work.
I think it's the only answer for now for Coopers Camp Rd people.

Baroona Rd people have no problem walking from Milton Rd.

Quote from: SurfRail on March 20, 2012, 11:00:26 AM
This sounds like a rehash of the 365/366 and 368/369 Ashgrove loop services, which were so bad that even BT decided they should be cut.

Legibility, frequency, integration with other services. 

We probably need a map to have a decent look.
I'd suggest that our comments may mean the idea goes no further.

#Metro

QuoteI'd suggest that our comments may mean the idea goes no further.

Let's have a look nonetheless, at this stage we have only descriptions of potential destinations rather than a map and goals of the service and how it fits into the larger network.
The topography of the area means that there is a little challenge involved as well to direct, straight routes.

Let's see the proposal and map before we make comments.

I think it is a good thing someone makes pro-active effort to ask our thoughts and we should offer them.
I'm not a TMR. Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

Gazza

Yeah we really need a map because at the moment all we have is a list of local landmarks.

Golliwog

Quote from: Simon on March 20, 2012, 11:41:47 AM
Quote from: Golliwog on March 20, 2012, 11:33:59 AM
True, you can't have direct to everywhere. But I still think trying to get everyone to go via Roma St isn't going to work.
I think it's the only answer for now for Coopers Camp Rd people.

Baroona Rd people have no problem walking from Milton Rd.

Quote from: SurfRail on March 20, 2012, 11:00:26 AM
This sounds like a rehash of the 365/366 and 368/369 Ashgrove loop services, which were so bad that even BT decided they should be cut.

Legibility, frequency, integration with other services. 

We probably need a map to have a decent look.
I'd suggest that our comments may mean the idea goes no further.
What if the GCL ran more often and had a more direct route to Toowong?
There is no silver bullet... but there is silver buckshot.
Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

#Metro

QuoteWhat if the GCL ran more often and had a more direct route to Toowong?

This would be a very good idea (there is a thread on the forum for a 594 bus to replace the GCL, funnily enough via Ashgrove) - falls into the 'wider network' of things.
I'm not a TMR. Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

somebody

Quote from: Golliwog on March 20, 2012, 12:25:07 PM
What if the GCL ran more often and had a more direct route to Toowong?
Wouldn't help Rosalie.  599 is already pretty good to Toowong, 598 has a short walk but it isn't too bad.

If TT's 594 started at Toowong, I'd use the 470 terminus.

What I would say that Rosalie needs is one route via Baroona Rd to the CBD.  Continuing to PA Hospital is somewhat less needed.

Quote from: tramtrain on March 20, 2012, 11:48:59 AM
I think it is a good thing someone makes pro-active effort to ask our thoughts and we should offer them.
Agreed.

#Metro

I'm not a TMR. Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

newbris

Quote from: Simon on March 20, 2012, 07:58:19 AM
Where's the map?  Description?

First impression isn't favourable - Getting between Coopers Camp Rd & Park Rd is a change at Roma St - easy.  Getting between Baroona Rd & Park Rd is getting on/off at Milton Rd/Park Rd/Baroona Rd and a short walk.

...

Just to clarify, is this even the main purpose? Seems getting Coopers Camp Rd people to Park Road is just one of many movements it is trying to solve not the main one?


somebody

Quote from: newbris on March 20, 2012, 13:33:37 PM
Quote from: Simon on March 20, 2012, 07:58:19 AM
Where's the map?  Description?

First impression isn't favourable - Getting between Coopers Camp Rd & Park Rd is a change at Roma St - easy.  Getting between Baroona Rd & Park Rd is getting on/off at Milton Rd/Park Rd/Baroona Rd and a short walk.

...

Just to clarify, is this even the main purpose? Seems getting Coopers Camp Rd people to Park Road is just one of many movements it is trying to solve not the main one?


I also mention Baroona Rd & Park Rd.

We're not really sure where it actually goes, but it seems like the plan is to go everywhere in an attempt to be all things to all people, while likely succeeding for no one.

Surely the priority for Rosalie is to increase the 475 frequency to the CBD rather than anything else.

#Metro

I'm not a TMR. Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

newbris

#22
Quote from: Simon on March 20, 2012, 13:43:40 PM
Quote from: newbris on March 20, 2012, 13:33:37 PM
Quote from: Simon on March 20, 2012, 07:58:19 AM
Where's the map?  Description?

First impression isn't favourable - Getting between Coopers Camp Rd & Park Rd is a change at Roma St - easy.  Getting between Baroona Rd & Park Rd is getting on/off at Milton Rd/Park Rd/Baroona Rd and a short walk.

...

Just to clarify, is this even the main purpose? Seems getting Coopers Camp Rd people to Park Road is just one of many movements it is trying to solve not the main one?


I also mention Baroona Rd & Park Rd.

We're not really sure where it actually goes, but it seems like the plan is to go everywhere in an attempt to be all things to all people, while likely succeeding for no one.

Surely the priority for Rosalie is to increase the 475 frequency to the CBD rather than anything else.

Yeah, I assume from Coopers Camp it is going down Baroona and onto Park Road. But from what I can tell it is a loop and serving north/south, south/north, east/west journeys as well.

Having lived in Rosalie the west/east journey to the CBD is well covered compared to the south/north lateral journeys.

The massive hill up to Latrobe, amongst others, makes walking difficult from the lower Paddington basin (Rosalie) to upper Paddinton. Trying to get to Latrobe, Caxton, Barracks, Red Hill, Bardon and Ashgrove is difficult even though they are all quite close. It is the north/south axis that needs PT not west/east. From a personal use point of view I would draw a north/south line between the future Milton city cat terminal (corner of coronation drive and park rd) and the Ashgrove shops and join the two taking in the major connections/destinations like the Milton train station, Rosalie, Latrobe/Caxton/Barracks, Ithaca TAFE and Ashgrove Village. Of course the viability of this route is what is up for discussion I am just trying to clarify the problem this route is trying to solve so we know what we are rejecting.

FYI, there has been continuous calls in the local rag for a north/south paddington route as everthing is focused on CBD spoke trips apart from the GCL. This makes moving laterally between Coronation Drv/Milton/Haig/Baroona/Latrobe/Arthur and Waterworks very hard without going all the way to the CBD and back.

Gazza

I've got no issue with better local cross town connections.

What matters though is the implementation. If the bus tries to serve everyone, and goes to every possible destination, you end up with a stupid zigzaggy route that ends up being used by no one because its too slow to cover ground.
Whats better is a more direct route down the heart, that goes through major destinations, but near to secondary ones, but not necesarily on their doorstep.

By all means, lets get some doodling going (just save the map and draw over the map in paint) on how it should be:



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

somebody

I guess you could extend the 475 along Jubilee Tce to Ashgrove shops.  That's the sort of thing that BT would do - combine cross town functions with radial functions.  Better to have the route know what it is IMO.

ozbob

Map supplied by Ms Li.  Full size PDF attached as well

"This is just proposed and is open to feed back to enhance the first draft route.

There are requests whether the Loop can be expanded to Wesley Hospital and KG QUT.  This idea is still in its infancy.  Thanks! "  Ms Li

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somebody

Umm, the moves from Milton Rd to/from Hale St cannot be done in either direction.  You could run along Milton Rd, except that the right turn from Petrie Terrace into Milton Rd is impossible.  There's a big traffic island there.

What's the need to touch Musgrave Rd?

SurfRail

Compare my purple route (direct) to where the GCL goes (pensioner's excursion).  The proposed loop is in green (ignoring the fact some of the movements are not possible).



This is a much better outcome because it allows you to perform same-stop transfers at Ashgrove (350, 380/381) and Bardon (375, 385), and still reasonably good transfers at Toowong and to the 475.

Maybe the Ashgrove-Toowong stretch of the GCL could be a local service, or extended to UQ, or tacked onto something else (375?).

The loop service has little merit in my opinion because the same functions could be performed better by upgrading frequency on the 475 and Musgrave/Waterworks Road, and by replacing the GCL with something like my purple route.

I'd also look at reviewing the 372/373/377/378 to see if they are actually needed or if people would just benefit from more frequent and direct services on other routes.
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somebody

I agree with SurfRail.

Only things I can add are the 471 can cover Mt Cootha Gardens and the 475 is still needed as there would otherwise be too much of a gap between LaTrobe Tce and Milton Rd for citybound.

Gazza

What about something like this.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
'Old' GCL scrapped completely:


somebody

Killing the western side of the 375?  Interesting idea.  You'd get complaints from people from Simpsons Rd wanting to go to Paddington/Caxton St.  Either way I don't see the need to extend the green route past the current 375 terminus.  Similarly, I'd stick to a Toowong terminus for the N-S route.

Note that there is no reason to use Coro O/B for the green route as there are no stops you could serve until Park Rd.  I/B there are a few stops, hence by unbalanced route plan.

SurfRail

Quote from: Simon on March 20, 2012, 17:48:08 PM
I agree with SurfRail.

Only things I can add are the 471 can cover Mt Cootha Gardens and the 475 is still needed as there would otherwise be too much of a gap between LaTrobe Tce and Milton Rd for citybound.

Yeah, should have clarified - the BUZ routes are just for framing context, so don't read anything into the omission of certain routes.  (In the old days when I had my Google Earth map I could have quickly plotted out every route through the area by playing with the radio buttons and line colours...)
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SurfRail

Quote from: Gazza on March 20, 2012, 17:57:00 PMWhat about something like this.

Green route should terminate at Bardon to make a common interchange point.  The route the green one takes past Purtell Park is largely uninhabited, so any service in that area should probably follow the GCL route past Stuartholme. 

I think you could have a coverage type service here between Toowong and Bardon via the current GCL route, so people going to town can transfer at either end to get to town (they would have to do this now anyway, so no great loss).

Perhaps that route could form a "coverage orbital" extending to say Ashgrove Ave/Newmarket Rd/Northey St/RBWH.  Plenty of opportunities for interchange all over the place to get to town, and you could maybe get rid of some underperforming loop-de-loop-and-then-straight-to-town type routes in the area like the 372/373.
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newbris

#33
As I proposed earlier in the thread I think Milton/Rosalie/Paddington/Red Hill/Ashgrove residents, students and visitors need a North/South route rather than another west/east based route (the GCL does not address the issue).

I have tried to connect Milton Citycat/Park Road/Milton Train district with Rosalie Village/Frew Park/Gregory Park district and then Suncorp Stadium/Caxton St/Ithaca Pool/Barrack Shops/Cinemas district and then Latrobe/Paddington Central/Antique district and then Ithaca TAFE/Broncos Club/Ashgrove Village district.

I have tried to do it without going right next to each destination in the interests of keeping it quick and direct and on roads with existing bus stops. As I know the traffic in the area I think any bendiness in the route will be compensated by travelling more lightly traffic affected roads.



Ignore the bit that crosses into West End and carries on to New Farm...that is my Maroon Glider extension :)

Go easy on an amateur now :)

Gazza

Quotethat is my Maroon Glider extension
I hope that Maroon Glider never happens, such a misallocation of resources!

newbris

Quote from: Gazza on March 20, 2012, 22:48:48 PM
Quotethat is my Maroon Glider extension
I hope that Maroon Glider never happens, such a misallocation of resources!

I knew I shouldn't have mentioned it  :D

newbris

#36
Another possible north/south route which will make calls for the maroon glider seem more redundant. :)



Areas linked together:

Gabba Cricket Ground/Mater/KP/Gabba Antique District
Southbank
West End
Cultural District/Convention Centre
Milton Citycat/Park Road/Milton Train/Milton Light Industrial/Offices
Rosalie Village/Frew Park (new Tennis Centre)/Gregory Park
Suncorp Stadium/Caxton St/Ithaca Pool/Barrack Shops/Cinemas
Latrobe/Paddington Central/Antique district
Ithaca TAFE/Broncos Club/Ashgrove Village

#Metro

CityCycle integrated with Go Card needs to be expanded in this area to fill in the gaps.
I'm not a TMR. Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.


#Metro

There are a quite a few cyclists on the weekends through the area, the idea should not be dismissed.
General bicycle rack increases can also be very effective.

I go riding in that area a bit, it is nice scenery, coffee etc.
I'm not a TMR. Negative people... have a problem for every solution. Posts are commentary and are not necessarily endorsed by RAIL Back on Track or its members.

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