Should the remaining paper single tickets be removed?

[somebody]

Saying if you don't like go card stop using public transport is frankly being stupid. What option do people have?  i have no option as I can not get a drivers license for medical reasons so essentially you are advocating that all people with disabilities should be locked up in their homes and never allowed out in public. Who has the attitude problem?

No, they can get a go card.  It's not hard.

with all due respect Simon I think you may have missed the point.  Do you really think it is reasonable to say to people who have no transport options other than public transport to just not catch public transport if they don't like using go cards?

So far I am yet to see a convincing reason to get rid of paper tickets. The flaw in the it delays the bus argument has been countered yet nobody seems to want to respond to that.

There is no flaw in the "it delays the bus" argument, unless you mean the part that go cards aren't sold on buses?  They could and should be.

Saying that they should be catered for if they don't like the go card is like saying that they should be catered for if they don't like the timetable, or the route.  Except that sometimes the latter two complaints should be listened to, the former one: I do not think so.

I haven't missed any point.

[Gazza]

Saying if you don't like go card stop using public transport is frankly being stupid. What option do people have?  i have no option as I can not get a drivers license for medical reasons so essentially you are advocating that all people with disabilities should be locked up in their homes and never allowed out in public. Who has the attitude problem?

No, they can get a go card.  It's not hard.

with all due respect Simon I think you may have missed the point.  Do you really think it is reasonable to say to people who have no transport options other than public transport to just not catch public transport if they don't like using go cards?

So far I am yet to see a convincing reason to get rid of paper tickets. The flaw in the it delays the bus argument has been countered yet nobody seems to want to respond to that.

Buying a go card would solve their problems.

[justanotheruser]

So far I am yet to see a convincing reason to get rid of paper tickets. The flaw in the it delays the bus argument has been countered yet nobody seems to want to respond to that.

There is no flaw in the "it delays the bus" argument, unless you mean the part that go cards aren't sold on buses?  They could and should be.

so you don't want the delays of people buying paper tickets but you want the delays associated with selling and topping up go cards on the buses. go cards are a bigger delay than selling a paper ticket. so no you have not addressed this point from earlier in this thread and neither has anyone else. It seems you just want to replace one type of delay with a different type of delay!

[Gazza]

Had this discussion in the past. A go card top up happens once every several journeys. A paper ticket purchase happens every journey.

[somebody]

so you don't want the delays of people buying paper tickets but you want the delays associated with selling and topping up go cards on the buses. go cards are a bigger delay than selling a paper ticket. so no you have not addressed this point from earlier in this thread and neither has anyone else. It seems you just want to replace one type of delay with a different type of delay!

I think there should be a charge for topping up on a bus.  Probably the same for buying go cards on the bus.  Should be an adequate disincentive.

[justanotheruser]

Had this discussion in the past. A go card top up happens once every several journeys. A paper ticket purchase happens every journey.

however from a timetabling point of view the times would be more accurate with selling of paper tickets. With go card top up you could suddenly find massive delays if lots of people top up on same day. you know the concept of people buying weeklies. there were bigger lines one day because people didn't want to risk having a ticket they wouldn't use in case they got sick over the weekend. Paper tickets don't happen every journey in all areas. Is it the same person buying a paper ticket every single day?

[justanotheruser]

so you don't want the delays of people buying paper tickets but you want the delays associated with selling and topping up go cards on the buses. go cards are a bigger delay than selling a paper ticket. so no you have not addressed this point from earlier in this thread and neither has anyone else. It seems you just want to replace one type of delay with a different type of delay!

I think there should be a charge for topping up on a bus.  Probably the same for buying go cards on the bus.  Should be an adequate disincentive.

so introducing more spots to sell go cards and make them accesable should be penalised? Seems like opposing ideas to me.

[STB]

Had this discussion in the past. A go card top up happens once every several journeys. A paper ticket purchase happens every journey.

however from a timetabling point of view the times would be more accurate with selling of paper tickets. With go card top up you could suddenly find massive delays if lots of people top up on same day. you know the concept of people buying weeklies. there were bigger lines one day because people didn't want to risk having a ticket they wouldn't use in case they got sick over the weekend. Paper tickets don't happen every journey in all areas. Is it the same person buying a paper ticket every single day?

Not really.  The paper tickets never provided information for planners on destination and had to be manually mapped which could cause errors.  I remember back in my day of spending a week on one bus working out where these passengers were going to, so a route that we were looking at at the time could be properly planned for.  TL still get people on board to work this sort of information out, but at least the Go Card provides data that can be crosschecked to reduce (not completely) the error rate.

Also each time you touch on/off it records the time down to the second of when you did that touch which is available to Planners I've been told.  Also has come in handy personally of tracking late running and sending feedback to TL of that nature using my Go Card data.

[somebody]

so you don't want the delays of people buying paper tickets but you want the delays associated with selling and topping up go cards on the buses. go cards are a bigger delay than selling a paper ticket. so no you have not addressed this point from earlier in this thread and neither has anyone else. It seems you just want to replace one type of delay with a different type of delay!

I think there should be a charge for topping up on a bus.  Probably the same for buying go cards on the bus.  Should be an adequate disincentive.

so introducing more spots to sell go cards and make them accesable should be penalised? Seems like opposing ideas to me.

I don't think so.

Why do you want to keep paper?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Had this discussion in the past. A go card top up happens once every several journeys. A paper ticket purchase happens every journey.

however from a timetabling point of view the times would be more accurate with selling of paper tickets. With go card top up you could suddenly find massive delays if lots of people top up on same day. you know the concept of people buying weeklies. there were bigger lines one day because people didn't want to risk having a ticket they wouldn't use in case they got sick over the weekend. Paper tickets don't happen every journey in all areas. Is it the same person buying a paper ticket every single day?

Obviously that doesn't apply to the 111 buz. I can't recall the last time I have caught it when it was on time into the Cultural Centre without it being delayed because some dill hasn't purchased a GoCard and had to fumble around for spare change while holding up people getting on with GoCards.

[SurfRail]

The entire busway should be pre-paid - period - whether or not paper is available.

[Gazza]

Maybe that is what we should be focusing on instead.

[justanotheruser]

so you don't want the delays of people buying paper tickets but you want the delays associated with selling and topping up go cards on the buses. go cards are a bigger delay than selling a paper ticket. so no you have not addressed this point from earlier in this thread and neither has anyone else. It seems you just want to replace one type of delay with a different type of delay!

I think there should be a charge for topping up on a bus.  Probably the same for buying go cards on the bus.  Should be an adequate disincentive.

so introducing more spots to sell go cards and make them accesable should be penalised? Seems like opposing ideas to me.

I don't think so.

Why do you want to keep paper?

Never said I did want to keep paper but I think if it is gotten rid of then the alternative should be practical. That is you should be able to top up go cards using EFTPOS at ticket machines for all amounts that you can use cash for. I think the reasons for getting rid of paper should be well thought out and logical. I also think there should be a way for mistakes made when topping up to be reversed. because I felt bad for the guy when a railway worker stuffed up giving me $40 free credit on my go card when I next had some spare money I gave him half of that so he wasn't out of pocket as much. lets get the system working. What was everyone saying with the Qld Health payroll debacle? They were saying wow there is no backup system for when things didn't work. Well lets get it working then rationally look at best way to get rid of paper tickets rather than telling people to get stuffed which is essentially what saying if you don't like it then don't use public transport is saying.

[justanotheruser]

Had this discussion in the past. A go card top up happens once every several journeys. A paper ticket purchase happens every journey.

however from a timetabling point of view the times would be more accurate with selling of paper tickets. With go card top up you could suddenly find massive delays if lots of people top up on same day. you know the concept of people buying weeklies. there were bigger lines one day because people didn't want to risk having a ticket they wouldn't use in case they got sick over the weekend. Paper tickets don't happen every journey in all areas. Is it the same person buying a paper ticket every single day?

Obviously that doesn't apply to the 111 buz. I can't recall the last time I have caught it when it was on time into the Cultural Centre without it being delayed because some dill hasn't purchased a GoCard and had to fumble around for spare change while holding up people getting on with GoCards.

however timetables can accomodate that consistantly by allowing extra time. Topping up go cards occasionly does not allow the timetable to take into consideration so you will be late on a regular basis.  

[#Metro]

We need a small scale trial on a few routes first. West End-New Farm 199, 196 and 195 seems like a good place to start.

[SurfRail]

oops sorry. I did mean to mention that it does not apply to public transport but was countering the point that any business can do it. under the laws you actually have the situation where some businesses can refuse legal tender for some things but not others!

Such as?  I work with laws on a daily basis, I'm not aware of any such thing.

[HappyTrainGuy]

however timetables can accomodate that consistantly by allowing extra time. Topping up go cards occasionly does not allow the timetable to take into consideration so you will be late on a regular basis.  

And then have drivers doing 60kph on the busway or adding longer dwell times at bus stops so the timetable catches up? No thanks. I put up with enough of that already.

Busway stations should be 100% prepaid only. Install ticket machines and treat them similar to railway stations. No GoCard, no ticket, no boarding. No different than a driver kicking someone off the bus and telling him to buy a ticket downstairs with his $50 note at Southbank. People can cry and cry all they want but some people need to harden up and just buy a GoCard if they don't want to dordle around, wait in line ups to buy tickets and slowing up every service. Southbank constantly had those massive lines at the bottom of the stairs when it used to be prepaid only and IIRC there were a couple times when Translink set up shop to sell GoCards which seemed to be pretty popular when I saw it. BRING IT BACK haha. Then slowly start converting routes to prepaid only. Eventually the only places where you can buy tickets from are at train stations and bus stations.

[somebody]

so you don't want the delays of people buying paper tickets but you want the delays associated with selling and topping up go cards on the buses. go cards are a bigger delay than selling a paper ticket. so no you have not addressed this point from earlier in this thread and neither has anyone else. It seems you just want to replace one type of delay with a different type of delay!

I think there should be a charge for topping up on a bus.  Probably the same for buying go cards on the bus.  Should be an adequate disincentive.

so introducing more spots to sell go cards and make them accesable should be penalised? Seems like opposing ideas to me.

I don't think so.

Why do you want to keep paper?

Never said I did want to keep paper but I think if it is gotten rid of then the alternative should be practical. That is you should be able to top up go cards using EFTPOS at ticket machines for all amounts that you can use cash for. I think the reasons for getting rid of paper should be well thought out and logical. I also think there should be a way for mistakes made when topping up to be reversed. because I felt bad for the guy when a railway worker stuffed up giving me $40 free credit on my go card when I next had some spare money I gave him half of that so he wasn't out of pocket as much. lets get the system working. What was everyone saying with the Qld Health payroll debacle? They were saying wow there is no backup system for when things didn't work. Well lets get it working then rationally look at best way to get rid of paper tickets rather than telling people to get stuffed which is essentially what saying if you don't like it then don't use public transport is saying.

All I got out of that is that you want to slow down progress.

EFTPOS isn't available on buses at present so I don't know why you are mentioning that.

I don't know of anywhere with a back up payroll system!

[achiruel]

I don't know of anywhere with a back up payroll system!

Kind of O/T, but we do where I work.  Admittedly only been used once in 7 years, but if the automatic system fails for some reason we can make a list of the hours everyone worked and pay them manually in cash.  Rather small organisation compared to Qld Health though.

[nocost]

Visitors to Brisbane would be left with no access to public transport if paper tickets were abolished.

So make go cards available on buses, and ensure that all ticket machines dispense them (as opposed to just the busway ones).  Visitors make up a pretty small proportion of public transport users in Brisbane and even the Gold Coast.

[Gazza]

You could still sell go cards on buses, even if you don't top them up. This is treating buses no differently to those retailers which sell go cards, but don't top them up.

[justanotheruser]

oops sorry. I did mean to mention that it does not apply to public transport but was countering the point that any business can do it. under the laws you actually have the situation where some businesses can refuse legal tender for some things but not others!

Such as?  I work with laws on a daily basis, I'm not aware of any such thing.

service stations are an excellent example. They are not allowed to refuse legal tender for petrol as that is a debt however they can refuse legal tender for a can of drink or a pack of gum as no debt has occoured. The reserve bank gives an example of debt as a meal at a restaurant. As you sit down and have the meal first and pay after the debt has occoured.

[justanotheruser]

so you don't want the delays of people buying paper tickets but you want the delays associated with selling and topping up go cards on the buses. go cards are a bigger delay than selling a paper ticket. so no you have not addressed this point from earlier in this thread and neither has anyone else. It seems you just want to replace one type of delay with a different type of delay!

I think there should be a charge for topping up on a bus.  Probably the same for buying go cards on the bus.  Should be an adequate disincentive.

so introducing more spots to sell go cards and make them accesable should be penalised? Seems like opposing ideas to me.

I don't think so.

Why do you want to keep paper?

Never said I did want to keep paper but I think if it is gotten rid of then the alternative should be practical. That is you should be able to top up go cards using EFTPOS at ticket machines for all amounts that you can use cash for. I think the reasons for getting rid of paper should be well thought out and logical. I also think there should be a way for mistakes made when topping up to be reversed. because I felt bad for the guy when a railway worker stuffed up giving me $40 free credit on my go card when I next had some spare money I gave him half of that so he wasn't out of pocket as much. lets get the system working. What was everyone saying with the Qld Health payroll debacle? They were saying wow there is no backup system for when things didn't work. Well lets get it working then rationally look at best way to get rid of paper tickets rather than telling people to get stuffed which is essentially what saying if you don't like it then don't use public transport is saying.

All I got out of that is that you want to slow down progress.

EFTPOS isn't available on buses at present so I don't know why you are mentioning that.

I don't know of anywhere with a back up payroll system!

EFTPOS was mentioned because despite the ticket machines at railway stations offering it as a form of payment when wanting to put $200 on your go card it will not allow you to actually do it. Instead you have to line up at the ticket window. Now what if like me you catch PT at times out of peak? Railways are only required to have ticket sellers there for a few hours per day. If no paper tickets are they going to have a person there all day in a ticket window? Unlikely. I reckon they will keep them there for a short time and then get them to do other work or make them part time. Then i will be left with the situation of having to make 4 transactions in a row simply to top up my go card. So the relevance is the system is broke lets fix it before we get rid of the backup. Regardless of if buses have EFTPOS or not you are still saying they should have machines to top up go cards at busway stops. I am saying those machines do not work properly and therefore that is a problem.

I worked at a company with around 800 employees and the payroll stuffed up and had to be done another way. We were still paid on time so it does happen. However you missed the point. The point is people expect a working system and if something breaks down then there should be a backup. Lerts put it in train terms. you are argument is the equivalent of saying that when the train network has a fault and comes to a standstill like it did last month then the railways should not arrange buses to transport people but rather just leave them waiting. I am saying that is a bad idea.

i think the BCC buses need to get over themselves and accept topping up go cards. yes there are concerns about safety but that can be overcome. heck having a counter cache unit on the bus and driver without a key would help. http://www.shopstuff.co.uk/acatalog/Under_Counter_Money_Safes.html They come in various sizes and I'm sure a company that makes them would be happy to make an adjusted one to go on buses. make it so only at depots or maybe sheds in rest areas on busways are able to open them.

[#Metro]

We need a small scale trial or we will be here arguing forever.
The Prepaid buses seem to work and they don't sell go cards OR allow topup.

Someone was off buying paper tickets for their whole family on the bus and it blocked EVERYONE behind them in a massive queue.
Paper tickets are so yesterday - why aren't they extinct yet?

[achiruel]

[service stations are an excellent example. They are not allowed to refuse legal tender for petrol as that is a debt however they can refuse legal tender for a can of drink or a pack of gum as no debt has occoured. The reserve bank gives an example of debt as a meal at a restaurant. As you sit down and have the meal first and pay after the debt has occoured.

This is not necessarily the case.  For example, if the service station put a sign on all its bowsers stating that cash payment would not be accepted, they would not need to take it as payment.  I have been to at least one service station that takes no cash between 9pm and 5am for security reasons (eftpos/cc only, no cash is held on site).

[SurfRail]

service stations are an excellent example. They are not allowed to refuse legal tender for petrol as that is a debt however they can refuse legal tender for a can of drink or a pack of gum as no debt has occoured. The reserve bank gives an example of debt as a meal at a restaurant. As you sit down and have the meal first and pay after the debt has occoured.

You can always specify the method of payment for a transaction in advance, even in situations like this.  Here, you just put it on a big sign out the front. 

With public transport ticketing, it is as simple.  Melbourne trams all have notices on the exterior that you cannot use bank notes to pay for a ticket at the onboard machines.  The "P" on our prepaid routes and the notices by the door on the Cityglider buses are analogous.

[#Metro]

Why do we still have paper ticketing? 
Do what needs to be done, and CUT!!

[Fares_Fair]

Bus, although very close to your heart TT, is an altogether different matter than trains where they do not cause the same types of delays.
They should have put the go card readers at all of the bus stops, and no more GPS errors.

Bold added by SR  
That is over 13,000 machines you are asking for, which will be exposed to the elements non-stop, compared to much less than that on the bus fleet, each of which is cheaper and not outside.

[justanotheruser]

Seem as nobody wants to talk about this I will assume it was missed.

All ticket machines need to be able to accept EFTPOS for all transactions over $10.  They currently do not do this. Fix the faults that we already know about then talk to me about trialling it.  At the moment you are wanting another Qld Health payroll debacle. The system wasn't tested because the old system wasn't working properly so they just rushed the new one in.

[somebody]

Seem as nobody wants to talk about this I will assume it was missed.

All ticket machines need to be able to accept EFTPOS for all transactions over $10.  They currently do not do this. Fix the faults that we already know about then talk to me about trialling it.  At the moment you are wanting another Qld Health payroll debacle. The system wasn't tested because the old system wasn't working properly so they just rushed the new one in.

My understanding is that the Mk I ticket machines don't allow EFTPOS but the Mk II machines do.

Either way, I don't see how this is a limitation to removing paper?  Removing paper doesn't prevent anything which is possible now regarding EFTPOS.

[#Metro]

What gets up my nose about our machines is that it either accepts coins or cash BUT not both.
What a fussy machine!!

[SurfRail]

Credit cards have certainly been limited until just recently, but I don't understand the comments being made about EFTPOS.  I always use EFTPOS to top up my card, and always have.  (As with some others I prefer to have as few deductions being made from my account as possible.

It does appears to have a problem doing it for values above $100.00, so I just run it through twice at $100.00 (I just put on $200 a fortnight, roughly, and go from there).

[dwb]

[service stations are an excellent example. They are not allowed to refuse legal tender for petrol as that is a debt however they can refuse legal tender for a can of drink or a pack of gum as no debt has occoured. The reserve bank gives an example of debt as a meal at a restaurant. As you sit down and have the meal first and pay after the debt has occoured.

This is not necessarily the case.  For example, if the service station put a sign on all its bowsers stating that cash payment would not be accepted, they would not need to take it as payment.  I have been to at least one service station that takes no cash between 9pm and 5am for security reasons (eftpos/cc only, no cash is held on site).

I'm pretty sure they can't do that legally... Legal tender is just that, legal tender!

[dwb]

Why do we still have paper ticketing? 
Do what needs to be done, and CUT!!

I don't see the big deal.

My bus driver said to some cash passengers the other day a little spiel about go card, good customer service.

At the very most more peak hour services could become prepay but cash as a backup doesn't bother me for singles (yet).

[Fares_Fair]

Bus, although very close to your heart TT, is an altogether different matter than trains where they do not cause the same types of delays.
They should have put the go card readers at all of the bus stops, and no more GPS errors.

That is over 13,000 machines you are asking for, which will be exposed to the elements non-stop, compared to much less than that on the bus fleet, each of which is cheaper and not outside.

This is interesting SR, you appear to have edited my post (I have added the bold and colour)
Well done! lol

Congratulations on the Global Moderator role.

I know (now you've told me) but it would solve many problems wouldn't it? and they could be put under a small weather shield enclosure.

[SurfRail]

Bus, although very close to your heart TT, is an altogether different matter than trains where they do not cause the same types of delays.
They should have put the go card readers at all of the bus stops, and no more GPS errors.

That is over 13,000 machines you are asking for, which will be exposed to the elements non-stop, compared to much less than that on the bus fleet, each of which is cheaper and not outside.

This is interesting SR, you appear to have edited my post (I have added the bold and colour)
Well done! lol

Congratulations on the Global Moderator role.

I know (now you've told me) but it would solve many problems wouldn't it? and they could be put under a small weather shield enclosure.

Sorry, I've done it again (unintentionally)...

[SurfRail]

I'm pretty sure they can't do that legally... Legal tender is just that, legal tender!

That's not what the Reserve Bank and the courts say, and they are the institutions whose opinion matters.

Again - http://www.rba.gov.au/banknotes/legal-framework/index.html

[justanotheruser]

[service stations are an excellent example. They are not allowed to refuse legal tender for petrol as that is a debt however they can refuse legal tender for a can of drink or a pack of gum as no debt has occoured. The reserve bank gives an example of debt as a meal at a restaurant. As you sit down and have the meal first and pay after the debt has occoured.

This is not necessarily the case.  For example, if the service station put a sign on all its bowsers stating that cash payment would not be accepted, they would not need to take it as payment.  I have been to at least one service station that takes no cash between 9pm and 5am for security reasons (eftpos/cc only, no cash is held on site).

However when it comes to an existing debt they can not hit trouble getting money if they refuse. Once a customer walks into the store even if they don't go near the counter the service station can not get the police involved if the person does not pay. Technology exists to do this as it is done in several other countries. They won't do it here though because they reckon shop sales will drop and that is where they make their profit. Anyway back to topic!

[justanotheruser]

Credit cards have certainly been limited until just recently, but I don't understand the comments being made about EFTPOS.  I always use EFTPOS to top up my card, and always have.  (As with some others I prefer to have as few deductions being made from my account as possible.

It does appears to have a problem doing it for values above $100.00, so I just run it through twice at $100.00 (I just put on $200 a fortnight, roughly, and go from there).

right so the solution to avoiding delays is to create delays by making people do multiple transactions? once again doesn't make sense to me sorry

[somebody]

Credit cards have certainly been limited until just recently, but I don't understand the comments being made about EFTPOS.  I always use EFTPOS to top up my card, and always have.  (As with some others I prefer to have as few deductions being made from my account as possible.

It does appears to have a problem doing it for values above $100.00, so I just run it through twice at $100.00 (I just put on $200 a fortnight, roughly, and go from there).

right so the solution to avoiding delays is to create delays by making people do multiple transactions? once again doesn't make sense to me sorry

Makes perfect sense.  If you use paper you need to do many times the transactions.

Auto top up also works fine.

Your argument makes no sense, and is irrelevant to the topic at hand!

I don't see the big deal.

My bus driver said to some cash passengers the other day a little spiel about go card, good customer service.

At the very most more peak hour services could become prepay but cash as a backup doesn't bother me for singles (yet).

You don't see the big deal?  Slowing down buses while overcharging a number of people, even if they are inconsiderate luddites, seems to have a couple of problems.

There isn't much scope for increasing the number of prepaid routes.