Katter's Australian Party 4 point 'Fares Fair' public transport policy

[somebody]

Probably not as simple as that. Passenger-trips is one measure, another is passenger-kilometres.  Rail is a lot higher than bus in  SEQ for that metric, and then the comparison is different.

Never seen the stats for passenger-kms.  How much higher is "a lot"?

The essential difference is DOO in Perth. Do that in Queensland I think they would be near equivalent.  Moving to DOO in SEQ won't happen for a while as ATP would need to be complete and then  some station modifications.

Never heard a rationale for that.  Because the guard prevents accidents like Waterfall?

I don't think the disabled access is a "can't" reason.  Look at Mel.

[somebody]

(and is there really that much fat to make up demand for the next 2 years of growth in service demand?)

Doubtless, yes.

[ozbob]

This isn't about bus or train - my question is directed at why a system with 9 stations can outperform one with 85 stations serving the same city.

Self evident I would have thought TT, all to do with frequency ... no wait at at those 9 stations ...

Melbourne's stations are configured for disabled access at the lead carriage, this would have to be set for south-east Queensland for DOO, that is what is meant.

I have been told a number of times that passenger kilometres for rail are > than bus from reliable sources.

[Cam]

[quote author=tramtrain link=topic=7815.msg89952#msg89952 date=1331183330
This isn't about bus or train - my question is directed at why a system with 9 stations can outperform one with 85 stations serving the same city.
[/quote]

I think that the following reasons may help explain the high patronage of the SE Busway:

1)   Frequent services

2)   Unlike infrequent feeder buses that miss connections to an infrequent rail service & vice versa, feeder buses don't terminate at a bus station so passengers don't have to wait for a connection

3)   100km/h speed between stops (outwards of Greenslopes)

4)   Well spaced stations so buses stop infrequently

5)   The bus stations are relatively new so present well & are easily accessible

6)   The stats indicate that buses & bus stations are safer than trains & train stations

These reasons help explain why few passengers on a city bound bus change for a train even when the bus route crosses the Beenleigh Line close to a station. An RBOT member pointed this out.

[#Metro]

I think that the following reasons may help explain the high patronage of the SE Busway:

1)   Frequent services

2)   Unlike infrequent feeder buses that miss connections to an infrequent rail service & vice versa, feeder buses don't terminate at a bus station so passengers don't have to wait for a connection

Train frequency must be increased (ultimate goal - train every 5-10 minutes all day, DOO) and FUZ buses put on (Feeder BUZ services). The transfer isn't such a big issue when you consider that the Skytrain in Vancouver has similar patronage but that is a fixed rail service that requires bus transfers.

3)   100km/h speed between stops (outwards of Greenslopes)

More like 80 km/hour. Speed does matter but over short distances (say within 10-20 km) increased speed isn't going to make a huge difference but decreased
waiting time will. Melbourne's trams travel at an infuriating 12-14 km/hour on city streets, and yet they are packed like sardines. Stop spacing is only 200-300 m over
most of the network...

4)   Well spaced stations so buses stop infrequently

The average stop spacings on the Ferny Grove line are almost identical to that on the SE Busway IMHO.
I did measurements on the forum somewhere a while back.

5)   The bus stations are relatively new so present well & are easily accessible

Most people get on the busway at bog standard bus stops in the suburbs

6)   The stats indicate that buses & bus stations are safer than trains & train stations

I think all this shows is that bus stations are newer and better designed, if train stations were done up, the same effect
could be achieved for rail, and in fact has for many stations on the Ferny Grove and Beenleigh Lines.


I think something similar to rail clearways is needed for SEQ...

[Jonas Jade]

4)   Well spaced stations so buses stop infrequently

The average stop spacings on the Ferny Grove line are almost identical to that on the SE Busway IMHO.
I did measurements on the forum somewhere a while back.

No....

Ferny Grove line is about 16km = 14 stations Central - Ferny Grove = 1.1km average

South East Busway is also about 16km = 10 stations KGSBS - 8MP = 1.6km average

There are stations only 600-700m apart on outer sections of the FG line (Oxford Park and Grovely, looking at you......), where the SEB lets a good couple of kms between, and the close distance stations are mainly in the inner city area.

[#Metro]

I've taken into account the standard deviation of the station spacing, I think statistically, the station spacing is the same and the difference between the means of
1.1 km and 1.6 km (500m) is not significant. Stations about 1km apart are decent spacings. In an inner city area the waiting time will matter more than the vehicle time, and further more the small, insignificant difference in stop spacings still does not explain the huge patronage of the SE busway vs the Ferny Grove line despite being comparable distances and spacings. Averages can be skewed by one station a long way out or outliers. Alternatively we can also look at timetable times and divide that by line length.

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5403.msg47658#msg47658

I've done a comparison to test a few ideas. I've often heard that 'the train system has a different function to the buses', buses are for shorter services in the suburbs and rail is for longer distance. Well, I don't think this is convincing at all, we simply compare the distances on the Shorncliffe (not shown) and Ferny Grove lines and their station spacing:

SE Busway (~ 16.5 km for CBD)
Cultural Centre - South Bank 1km
South Bank- Mater Hill 1km
Mater Hill to Buranda 2km
Buranda to Greenslopes 1.5 km
Greenslopes to Holland Park 2.5 km
Holland Park to GU 2km
GU to GC 2.5 km
GC to 8 mile plains 2.5 km

average spacing = 1.8 km +/- 0.6 km

Spacing was measured in google earth, rounded to nearest 100m

Ferny Grove Line (~16.1 km from central by rail)
Ferny Grove to Keperra 2.6 km
Keperra to Grovely 800 m
Grovely to Oxford Park 700 m
Oxford Pk to Michelton 1.1 km
Mitchelton to Gaythorne 1.3 km
Gaythorne to Enoggera 700 m
Enoggera to Alderly 900 m
Alderly to Newmarket 1.5 km
Newmarket to Wilston 1km
Wilston to Windsor 1km
Windsor to Bowen Hills 1.8 km
Bowen Hills to Valley 1.4 km
Valley to Central 1.3 km
Central to Roma Street 800 m

average spacing = 1.2 km +/- 0.5 km

Spacing was measured by looking at the station spacing line guides in Wikipedia, subtracting distances from
Central. The number to the right of the average spacing is the standard deviation, which tells
us how much variance there is in the measurements. In other words, most stations are around 1.2 km
apart, only a tiny minority are 700m apart or greater than 1.7km apart.

What this also shows is that the idea of "Rail is only really for longer distance commutes" is
not convincing at all. The spacings on the FG line are slightly closer than busway
but not by much (the standard deviations overlap), and the length of the line is also comparable to that of the SE Busway.

A bus (i.e. Brisbane CityGlider BRT) or LRT with a spacing of 500-800+ m
would be considered 'rapid transit' (the 'RT' in BRT). So both the busway
and the FG rail line (and by extension, I suspect most other rail lines too)
qualify as RT.

It's becoming painfully obvious why our rail system is not attracting
patronage. Even though it has similar stop spacing and an exclusive track
like busways, the busways operate frequent services and the buses join the busway.

In contrast, our train service is only half hourly and the buses aren't frequent to
the station and don't really feed it.

Hopefully an analogy will make this clearer: If I ran only two articulated buses down the SE Busway
in the off-peak and only allowed a handful or no buses to join the busway, I would have chronic
problems in growing patronage too! And, effectively, this is how our rail lines are being operated,
so there can be no question about why I often find the trains I catch to have empty carriages.

This is not an argument of bus vs rail, it is simply clarifying the reasons why many of our rail lines
appear to be low patronage in terms of geometry and connectivity.

[#Metro]

The important bit is here:


What this also shows is that the idea of "Rail is only really for longer distance commutes" is
not convincing at all. The spacings on the FG line are slightly closer than busway
but not by much (the standard deviations overlap), and the length of the line is also comparable to that of the SE Busway.

[Jonas Jade]

Interesting. Thanks for reposting that, my post was just off the top of my head.

for the length of line we're talking about, and if you're talking about 1.2 vs 1.8km spacing then it can be significant (1.8km is 50% more distance and there are 50% more stations on the FG line). For the purposes though, I can get that we're talking 1-2km spacings rather than the 400m etc of coverage routes, and less than the distances of a longer distance rail lines, (like the GC line).

But I'm going to drop the pedantry as it's pointless since I do completely agree with the over all idea you're getting across about rail doing "the same job" as the busway etc.

[achiruel]

Regarding the busway patronage, keep in mind that a lot of busway patronage starts/ends outside the busway.  I wonder if stats are available for trips that start and end at busway stations?

I guess the other thing is frequency.  Turn up to UMG at 7:45am on a weekday and there's almost guaranteed to be a bus within 3-4 minutes.  But from Darra to Roma St (as an example), there's an 11 minute gap between 7:46 and 7:57, then another 12 minute to 8:09.

[Jonas Jade]

Regarding the busway patronage, keep in mind that a lot of busway patronage starts/ends outside the busway.  I wonder if stats are available for trips that start and end at busway stations?

I guess the other thing is frequency.  Turn up to UMG at 7:45am on a weekday and there's almost guaranteed to be a bus within 3-4 minutes.  But from Darra to Roma St (as an example), there's an 11 minute gap between 7:46 and 7:57, then another 12 minute to 8:09.

I've previously posted a link to these stats (from 2008?) in another thread.

EDIT: From 2007, link to pdf doc: http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/~/media/0bc453ca-d54e-4f02-8c14-03475c6625fe/pdf_sebx_cds_v1_s18_traffic_and_transport.pdf

on pages 5-6 (183-184).