POLL: My Old Cleveland Rd corridor proposals

[somebody]

Since there's been some demands for maps lately, I'm wondering if maps would help explain what I was trying to say about the O-C Rd corridor a while back.

3 BUZes as below.



Connection to Roma St is largely superfluous here except for the poor service on route 104 IMO, and the fact that the 444 goes the opposite (wrong  ) way through the Cultural Centre as compared to all the other routes on its corridor.  Oh, and there is also the problem with the Cultural Centre-Go Between Bridge-Toowong routes not operating that way in either peak.

[somebody]

Note: I think the 204 should extend to Belmont rather than the Clem Jones Centre, but I'm only proposing changing the inner part in this proposal.

[Gazza]

I think the green route is too circuitous near the end....And why doesn't it say run parallel on Samuel Rd. Works well too because Samuel Rd is about 800-900m south so it would pick up a different catchment area.

[somebody]

I think the green route is too circuitous near the end....And why doesn't it say run parallel on Samuel Rd. Works well too because Samuel Rd is about 800-900m south so it would pick up a different catchment area.

Just what it (204) already does.  As I said in Reply 1 I'm not proposing to change that end in this proposal, even though I think it should be changed.

In case it isn't clear:
Red = 200
Green = 204
Purple = new route
222 = scrap it

[somebody]

This is what I envisage the 204 doing in the medium term:


I'm open to suggestions on somewhere useful to go from Belmont Rd/Wynnum Rd.

210 & 212 toggle Cannon Hill and Carindale, with the 210 becoming a BUZ.  Arguably, the 210 BUZ could use Bedivere St rather than Tristan St.  Equally arguably, the 210 could use Macrossan Ave rather than McIllwraith Ave.

[Gazza]

What I was thinking is that it should do this, longer term.



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[somebody]

You are then removing the all stops service from Old Cleveland Rd, as well as having a needlessly slow deviation via W'Gabba and Logan Rd.

Unless you meant a different route to do that, perhaps?

I doubt there is an appreciable difference in the speed of via Gallipolli Rd compared to via O-C Rd, but I'm open to being told that there is.  On the current route the 204 can at least keep picking up/dropping off between Carina cityxpress and Carindale interchange.

If you want to serve Chatsworth Rd, why on earth wouldn't you use the Cornwall St and Juliette St ramps?

[Gazza]

If you want to serve Chatsworth Rd, why on earth wouldn't you use the Cornwall St and Juliette St ramps?

Ok ok, its because I forgot they existed  Terrible I know.

You are then removing the all stops service from Old Cleveland Rd

Yes because it is duplication. For the truly infirm that cant deal with the current stop spacing, there should be telecabs.

[somebody]

You are then removing the all stops service from Old Cleveland Rd

Yes because it is duplication. For the truly infirm that cant deal with the current stop spacing, there should be telecabs.

I think you are taking your war on coverage services too far there.

[Mr X]

Telecabs along OCR? You cannot be serious. This is one of the most highly serviced corridors in Brisbane, not whoop-whoop.
Delete/merge stops which are too closely spaced and make the all stopper more frequent.

[Gazza]

^Thats what Im getting at. It should be entirely possible to have a rapid bus service with stop spacings acceptablefor the majority of people.
It's one of the best served corridors in Brisbane,

The 'unique' bit (Compared to the 222, 200 etc) of the 204 at the Carindale end, well, its so circutious that you might as well just close the loop, and have people on the loop change to reach the CBD.

For the odd person that genuinley cant deal with that, then the odd telecab would be sent out, and also service surrounding streets..

That's gotta be cheaper to run than the 204.

To me, the concept of a "coverage route" on a straight main coridoor is the most abusrd thing ever. A coverage route is like the ones that zig zag around backstreets, to compete with walking.

[somebody]

Completely disagree.

[achiruel]

I think the 204 and 200/222 serve completely different purposes, say if I was living in the western part of Camp Hill I might take the 222 for a fast trip to the city but I'd take the 204 to Coles in Coorparoo to do my grocery shopping (slower trip, but it gets me closer to my destination with heavy shopping bags).

[Gazza]

Completely disagree.

Please articulate why in these discussions, since I can't read your mind.
Very insulting to type up my position and be met with a two word reply.

That said, the idea of having the 204 go to Tingalpa is good too, but I'd get rid of that loop around carindale because that wastes time.

[somebody]

Camp Hill-Carina is presently 1440m
Camp Hill-Kismet St is presently around 960m.

I'd see at least three stops needing to be added to the 200 right there.

Completely disagree.

Please articulate why in these discussions, since I can't read your mind.

I like the two tiered service.  Presently its really three tiered, I think that's somewhat dumb.

I don't know what to add, I think we just need to agree to disagree.

[Gazza]

I think in these situations, I dont see why an all stops overlapping a rapid service needs to be any more frequent than hourly.

To clarify, would someone in Tingalpa have to go all stops to the CBD?

[Gazza]

I like the two tiered service.  Presently its really three tiered, I think that's somewhat dumb.

More like 5 tiered at the moment 


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Apoligies, re the Chatsworth Rd routes there is p201, and p205...Is there a full time route along Chatsworth Rd?

[achiruel]

I think in these situations, I dont see why an all stops overlapping a rapid service needs to be any more frequent than hourly.

To clarify, would someone in Tingalpa have to go all stops to the CBD?

There would still be the 215, or interchange at Carindale to a faster service.

[somebody]

Apoligies, re the Chatsworth Rd routes there is p201, and p205...Is there a full time route along Chatsworth Rd?

202.  It's awful.

P201 doesn't stop along Chatsworth Rd though, and the 205 only twice.  There is also the P208 which serves all stops IIRC in peak.

I think in these situations, I dont see why an all stops overlapping a rapid service needs to be any more frequent than hourly.

Possibly but the 204 does get decent patronage so I'm not inclined to cut it.

To clarify, would someone in Tingalpa have to go all stops to the CBD?

If they are using the 227 then yes.

[Gazza]

Possibly but the 204 does get decent patronage so I'm not inclined to cut it.

At the same time, where is this patronage coming from?

If the bus is full before it hits Old Clevland Rd then it shouldn't be forced to do all stops right? If its getting full after Carina then those people should be using the 200.

202.  It's awful.

Haha, thankyou for introducing me to that route. On the same timetable is a whole bundle of other "the same, but a little bit different" routes for me to hate upon 

Just sh%ts me that a lot of these 'no brainer' routes don't exisit, or get ruined by deviations. Like you'd think a simple direct, all stops, Chatsworth rd route (BUZ standard, or even just 15 min frequency all the time, not necessarily till 11pm though) would be an obvious one to have as part of a basic network, instead there are a bunch of others that are anything but and avoid doing this.

[somebody]

I like the two tiered service.  Presently its really three tiered, I think that's somewhat dumb.

More like 5 tiered at the moment 

If my proposal actually happens, it will no longer be necessary for the 206 to extend to the valley, nor will the 204.  There will only be a single route there.

I/B 207 would serve Kismet St but otherwise be unchanged.
O/B 207 would leave from QSBS and serve Kismet St

217,222 removed.

I/B 201 unchanged
O/B 201 leaving from QSBS.

[somebody]

If the bus is full before it hits Old Clevland Rd then it shouldn't be forced to do all stops right? If its getting full after Carina then those people should be using the 200.

Interesting argument.  What if I live on Errey St,Carina?  Should I accept having to walk 950m to the nearest stop?

Or should the 200 be slowed by serving more stops?

202.  It's awful.

Haha, thankyou for introducing me to that route. On the same timetable is a whole bundle of other "the same, but a little bit different" routes for me to hate upon 

Well I'd agree with you there.  I especially hate the bit through Stephens Rd etc rather than via Buranda.

[SurfRail]

There are no express stops on the Gold Coast Highway, and it would easily be as busy, more likely busier, a corridor than Old Cleveland Road.  Care to explain what is so special about the eastern suburbs that it makes implementing similar stop spacing to the GC Hwy an issue there?

I don't get this high frequency parallel services cruft - it's something that appears to be endemic to Brisbane.

[Gazza]

Interesting argument.  What if I live on Errey St,Carina?  Should I accept having to walk 950m to the nearest stop?

I've always seen the basic principle behind tiering (Be it bus or rail) is that if you live closer in, you have a more frequent service, with more stops, and if you live further out it becomes a less frequent service, with less stops (On the inner section). Travel time related to wating time yada yada yada. The proposals we've made for Tiering the Ipswich line reflect this.

Dunno, I mean why is Camp Hill-Carina 1400m between stops anyway? There's metros and LRT systems with stops much closer than that (And I mean in normal circumstances, not oddities like Leister Sq to Covent Garden).

I can see what you mean by not wanting to add heaps of extra stops. But it seems like with the routes in the area, you have a choice between close stops with close stops subsequently all the way, or limited stops all the way.

And I guess the way I see it is, if its like the 204, where you have to put up with all stops and welfare routing for the first bit of your trip (which is annoying to begin with). Yet after going through all that you then have to do "someone elses dirty work" and do all stops right through to the CBD. Is that conducive to patronage?

It's why I get annoyed with the way the 445 is set up and think it should be made more frequent but cut back to Indro, Because I don't see how serving all stops along Moggil Rd and Coro relates to their transport needs.

[somebody]

There are no express stops on the Gold Coast Highway, and it would easily be as busy, more likely busier, a corridor than Old Cleveland Road.  Care to explain what is so special about the eastern suburbs that it makes implementing similar stop spacing to the GC Hwy an issue there?

I don't get this high frequency parallel services cruft - it's something that appears to be endemic to Brisbane.

What makes GC Hwy "right" and Coronation Drive/O-C Rd/Lutwyche Rd "wrong".  Can't it just as easily be the other way around?

[#Metro]

What are the main principles and what are we trying to achieve? What is the PURPOSE?
Sending 200 via story bridge means a drop in frequency on the inner section of busway. Is that a good idea? Discuss.

I think Gazza's map is also indicative of the utter mess - they all go to Carindale, but the stops are all over the shop. This is one of the reasons why a bogota busway, a Central Busway, or North-South Subway would be so versatile. You would have ONE stop where EVERYONE would go, in Class A ROW, and then also the FIRST SERVICE (Bogota or NSS option only) would be YOUR SERVICE.

I hope that when they re-develop Wooloongabba Busway, the re-locate the bus turnaround or at least DO SOMETHING to permit services to turn left on to Main St and go to the Story Bridge.

[STB]

Apply the KISS principal.  Keep all day routes via Cultural Centre, and peak rocket/limited stop services via Captain Cook Bridge, which has been the idea for quite a long time and works quite well as can be seen on a daily basis.  If you really want to delete route 222, just renumber route 200 as 222, so then the east has the legiblity of a flagship service.

My thoughts summed up - delete route 200.  Keep route 204 as is as an all stopper alternative via W'Gabba to fill in the gaps between the express stops.   Turn route 205 into a full time Chatsworth Rd route which would service what route 200 serviced east of Carindale, passengers wanting to travel along Old Cleveland Rd can transfer at Carindale.  Keep route 202 as an alternative to route 205 which would be the all stopper version of route 205, which would now be a cityxpress/BUZ along Chatsworth Rd.  Both 205 and 222 would remain at BUZ frequency, although you would need to add additional trips where necessary to provide a like for like frequency with the deletion of route 200.  Route 217 I'm comfy with deleting for the time being, my travels and observations of that route is that it's not carrying enough patronage to warrant it's use at this stage, but may become needed over time - I think TL actually were ahead of the times in this regard.

[Gazza]

Is that a good idea? Discuss.

No problem at all, because the inner section of busway is so frequent you wouldn't even notice it's gone.

[STB]

There are no express stops on the Gold Coast Highway, and it would easily be as busy, more likely busier, a corridor than Old Cleveland Road.  Care to explain what is so special about the eastern suburbs that it makes implementing similar stop spacing to the GC Hwy an issue there?

I don't get this high frequency parallel services cruft - it's something that appears to be endemic to Brisbane.

I actually think there should be a limited stops route along GC Hwy.  But I suppose GCRT will negate the need for that, at least in the central and northern areas of the Gold Coast Hwy.

[somebody]

I hope that when they re-develop Wooloongabba Busway, the re-locate the bus turnaround or at least DO SOMETHING to permit services to turn left on to Main St and go to the Story Bridge.

Not aware that there is anything preventing the left turn now.  Right turn in is likely doable also, but may need to be checked.

I don't think anyone is defending Gazza/TL's map.

There are no express stops on the Gold Coast Highway, and it would easily be as busy, more likely busier, a corridor than Old Cleveland Road.  Care to explain what is so special about the eastern suburbs that it makes implementing similar stop spacing to the GC Hwy an issue there?

I don't get this high frequency parallel services cruft - it's something that appears to be endemic to Brisbane.

What makes GC Hwy "right" and Coronation Drive/O-C Rd/Lutwyche Rd "wrong".  Can't it just as easily be the other way around?

Let's compare some routes in Sydney, where it's more easy to get patronage figures.

M10 - All stops, through town connecting two high PT use corridors (Anzac Pde and Parramatta Rd).  Got 55.0 boardings/trip in the Mar11 quarter.
M52 - Limited stops to Ryde, radial to Parramatta via Victoria Rd.  Got 55.8 boardings/trip in the Mar11 quarter.

Not much difference but you would expect there to be as the M10 is through town so can get seats occupied twice per trip.  That is less true for the M52.  The M10 also cherry picks from other routes and is not generating its own patronage.  That cannot be said at all about the M52.  Most of its route its at least half the service, and double the frequency of the predecessor.  It is clear that unless there were other cuts which I'm not aware of the M52 has increased patronage on its corridor.  It's not at all clear that the M10 has done so appreciably.

I think limited stops + all stops is superior to a single stopping pattern except on short corridors.

[#Metro]

Apply the KISS principal.  Keep all day routes via Cultural Centre, and peak rocket/limited stop services via Captain Cook Bridge, which has been the idea for quite a long time and works quite well as can be seen on a daily basis.  If you really want to delete route 222, just renumber route 200 as 222, so then the east has the legiblity of a flagship service.

I think keep 222, but delete the 200. Something else can go up Deshon street (203 perhaps?). Some of the $$$ released should go into more 222 services so that they run every 10 minutes all day. This leaves 2 buses/hour worth of $$ to spend on something else. Perhaps a BUZ 400?

[STB]

Apply the KISS principal.  Keep all day routes via Cultural Centre, and peak rocket/limited stop services via Captain Cook Bridge, which has been the idea for quite a long time and works quite well as can be seen on a daily basis.  If you really want to delete route 222, just renumber route 200 as 222, so then the east has the legiblity of a flagship service.

I think keep 222, but delete the 200. Something else can go up Deshon street (203 perhaps?). Some of the $$$ released should go into more 222 services so that they run every 10 minutes all day. This leaves 2 buses/hour worth of $$ to spend on something else. Perhaps a BUZ 400?

204 perhaps then?  I suppose Stones Corner would then be serviced by 250, 270 and 222.  If you normally catch the 204 along OCR, transfer to the 222 at Coorparoo?  Or transfer onto route 203 at Coorparoo if you really have mobility issues and need to get right out the front door, as I discovered yesterday with an elderly lady who's heart condition prevents her from using the disabled assist ramp at Wellington Point railway station and therefore relies (although not able to any more) the 255 so she can be dropped out the front door.

[somebody]

Having it numbered 222 only makes sense if its to serve Roma St.

[STB]

Having it numbered 222 only makes sense if its to serve Roma St.

It would service Roma St.  I never said that it would terminate at QSBS.

[somebody]

Having it numbered 222 only makes sense if its to serve Roma St.

It would service Roma St.  I never said that it would terminate at QSBS.

You didn't say either way.

Where would the 204 leave from?  Stick to current route?  Then no improvement other than Carindale Heights people being able to access the Eastern Busway.

[STB]

Having it numbered 222 only makes sense if its to serve Roma St.

It would service Roma St.  I never said that it would terminate at QSBS.

You didn't say either way.

Where would the 204 leave from?  Stick to current route?  Then no improvement other than Carindale Heights people being able to access the Eastern Busway.

One word: Transfer.  Plenty of routes to transfer on at Carindale.  Not every single bus route has to or should go on the busway for multiple reasons.

[somebody]

Let's be clear: you are against having an 8 minute headway from QSBS A for the O-C Rd corridor EDIT: combined with a direct via Story Bridge route for the Valley and RBH /EDIT from basically the same resources which are employed presently.  

You're so funny.

[STB]

Let's be clear: you are against having an 8 minute headway from QSBS A for the O-C Rd corridor from basically the same resources which are employed presently.   

You're so funny.

Say what?  I never said that!

[somebody]

Let's be clear: you are against having an 8 minute headway from QSBS A for the O-C Rd corridor from basically the same resources which are employed presently.  

You're so funny.

Say what?  I never said that!

Re-read my proposal which you are opposing then.

EDIT: Oops, wrong word.

[STB]

Let's be clear: you are against having an 8 minute headway from QSBS A for the O-C Rd corridor from basically the same resources which are employed presently.   

You're so funny.

Say what?  I never said that!

Re-read my proposal which you are proposing then.

I did, and I think what I'm saying is rather reasonable and logical.

Route 222 - Carindale to Roma Street BUZ via Old Cleveland Rd (or higher frequency)
Route 204 - Carindale to City via Old Cleveland Rd All Stops
Route 205 - Carindale Heights to City (QSBS) via Chatsworth Rd BUZ
Route 250 - As current, express Carindale to Stones Corner
Route 202 - Leave as is - All stops alternative to route 205.

The peak routes I'll leave alone for the time being, just the 217 I would be comfy with deleting for the time being as it's had a good run and the patronage has been ordinary from what I've seen (obviously would need to be cross checked with actual on board data from the ticketing system).
Okay, slight error on the 270, I keep thinking it's going to the city when it's now terminating at Carindale.