Coverage Routes which should be truncated

[achiruel]

A few suggestions:

113, 117, 124, 125, 172, 203 to Woolloongabba.
430, 433, 435, 445 to Indooroopilly.
360, 361 to Enoggera (might require more 364s to service Herston though)
322, 306 to Toombul

By no means an exhaustive list, make other suggestions!

[somebody]

What will cover the all stops service between Indro and Toowong (at least)?

[achiruel]

Good point, 433 can continue to Toowong.  Still prune 445 though.

411 covers Toowong-City.

[somebody]

Or tag the 411 service on to the 412 and continue the 433 to the CBD.

[beauyboy]

The 203 should be terminated at Langlands Park in my view.
Langlands Park has a turning facility and would effectively cut the travel time of the route in half, and possibly allowing a half hourly service instead of hourly.

Donald

[david]

101/102 to Oxley
460 to Indooroopilly

[Gazza]

What will cover the all stops service between Indro and Toowong (at least)?

444 and 88. As we have said before, that section is lightly used, so its not as if every run of every 444 and 88 would be crawling through like what happens on the all stops 199.
More like, there would be one random passenger every few runs, barely slowing things down at all.

[achiruel]

The 203 should be terminated at Langlands Park in my view.
Langlands Park has a turning facility and would effectively cut the travel time of the route in half, and possibly allowing a half hourly service instead of hourly.

Donald

Wasn't aware of the turnaround, good idea.

[somebody]

What will cover the all stops service between Indro and Toowong (at least)?

444 and 88. As we have said before, that section is lightly used, so its not as if every run of every 444 and 88 would be crawling through like what happens on the all stops 199.
More like, there would be one random passenger every few runs, barely slowing things down at all.

Those are express services.  They do not cover the blue stops.

[Jonas Jade]

And the danger of stopping the 444 and 88 at the blue stops is once people realise that the high frequency services are stopping now, they will start to use it, and it will slow the service down over time.

[achiruel]

For for the western suburbs, it seems one plan is:

Truncate 445 at Indooroopilly
Continue to run 433 to city
Tack 411 onto the end of 412 and terminate at Toowong?

One issue I didn't see before is the 433 would then need extended hours & increased frequency.  Last service i/b departs the terminus just after 8pm on Mon-Sat and 5pm Sunday.  411 last service i/b departs 10:40pm Mon-Sat and 8:40pm Sunday.  Similar issues in o/b direction.  Perhaps the money saved from not running 411 to city could be redirected into adding a few more 433 services?

[somebody]

And the danger of stopping the 444 and 88 at the blue stops is once people realise that the high frequency services are stopping now, they will start to use it, and it will slow the service down over time.

Only the 88 has any sense (limited) with stopping at blue stops.  444 none at all.

One issue I didn't see before is the 433 would then need extended hours & increased frequency.  Last service i/b departs the terminus just after 8pm on Mon-Sat and 5pm Sunday.  411 last service i/b departs 10:40pm Mon-Sat and 8:40pm Sunday.  Similar issues in o/b direction.  Perhaps the money saved from not running 411 to city could be redirected into adding a few more 433 services?

You mean for the Coro Drive blue stops?  Arguable that it is even required, although reducing the service at the blue stops could see some whinging.  The Moggill Rd blue stops don't get any better operating hours than the 433.

[achiruel]

TBH I wouldn't mind to see 433 terminating at Indooroopilly, and all stops City-Indooropily service via Coro Dr.  Or is that just going to make things too confusing?

[somebody]

TBH I wouldn't mind to see 433 terminating at Indooroopilly, and all stops City-Indooropily service via Coro Dr.  Or is that just going to make things too confusing?

Isn't that a bit pointless?

[Jonas Jade]

How about:

Terminate most at Indro, Keep the 444 and the Centenary BUZ as express.

433/445 alternate 15 minutely to create an all stops "88" replacement.

425 merged & rerouted with 427/8 to go to UQ.

460 possibly to UQ as well, creating TUAG between Indro-UQ.

[somebody]

I just don't understand the obsession on this site with constantly terminating routes short of where they would usefully go.

[achiruel]

TBH I wouldn't mind to see 433 terminating at Indooroopilly, and all stops City-Indooropily service via Coro Dr.  Or is that just going to make things too confusing?

Isn't that a bit pointless?

Not entirely.  I don't think it's a good idea to make services in Class C ROW too long, particularly all-stops ones.  It tends to make late running even worse.  

[Gazza]

Simon, reasons are Twofold:

-A shorter route can be run at higher frequency for the same cost.

-2 Centenary Buzes plus the 444 and 412 on the inner, would be almost overservicing the coridoor as it is, but of course to get to destinations beyond Indro it becomes unavoidable (unless routes use the freeway full time)....Thus there is no reason for any more buses to use it, because BUZ routes alone add to give great frequency.

These routes will easily take the load of feeder pax transferring on.

Also, saying "blue stops" can't be serviced by the current 88 or 444, because you can just repaint and re sign the stops easily.  

[Gazza]

And the danger of stopping the 444 and 88 at the blue stops is once people realise that the high frequency services are stopping now, they will start to use it, and it will slow the service down over time.

I'm suprised outer sububan pax take preference over people living closer in, in Taringa.

Must be the most frustraing thing ever living only a few km from the CBD, but only actually having the 443 etc.

I'm certain a balance could be found betwen the THREE potential total buz routes as to which serve these stops.

I find it very hard to believe retaining the 443 etc is the only option for this stretch.

[achiruel]

Must be the most frustraing thing ever living only a few km from the CBD, but only actually having the 443 etc.

Or they could just walk to an express stop.  It's not really that far in most cases.  Or take the train.

[#Metro]

Simon, reasons are Twofold:

-A shorter route can be run at higher frequency for the same cost.

-2 Centenary Buzes plus the 444 and 412 on the inner, would be almost overservicing the coridoor as it is, but of course to get to destinations beyond Indro it becomes unavoidable (unless routes use the freeway full time)....Thus there is no reason for any more buses to use it, because BUZ routes alone add to give great frequency.

These routes will easily take the load of feeder pax transferring on.

Also, saying "blue stops" can't be serviced by the current 88 or 444, because you can just repaint and re sign the stops easily.  

There needs to be a balance. Bus routes which tend to fill up and stay full all day should obviously keep running to the CBD. Larger buses can  be put on which favours the driver : passenger ratio towards something more efficient.

If a bus line (let's call them lines now) is too short then it will not collect many passengers.
Rule of thumb might be ~ 5 km minimum length and must serve a major destination. Large s hopping centre interchanges (i.e. Indooroopilly, Chermside) are ideal for this.

The idea is to get frequency into the suburbs but balance that with decent destinations plus expel air.

Remember, we cannot and should not attempt to BUZ 'everything'.
Frequency costs money (Maroon CityGlider!) and therefore should be deployed strategically and sparingly.

[#Metro]

125

This service might play a greater role in the future, may need a bit of straightening and boosting but I'd be inclined to keep it direct. It could work nicely in tandem slotting in between a BUZ 100 to cover Ips Road but allow access to Garden City from there.

[Jonas Jade]

And the danger of stopping the 444 and 88 at the blue stops is once people realise that the high frequency services are stopping now, they will start to use it, and it will slow the service down over time.

I'm suprised outer sububan pax take preference over people living closer in, in Taringa.

Must be the most frustraing thing ever living only a few km from the CBD, but only actually having the 443 etc.

I'm certain a balance could be found betwen the THREE potential total buz routes as to which serve these stops.

I find it very hard to believe retaining the 443 etc is the only option for this stretch.

I could go for optimisation of stops, thus eliminating the "blue" stops altogether in that stretch and making them all "white". Maybe one or two extra stops and the rest of them just deleted.

The inner suburban pax really benefit from the true TUAG service along that stretch!

[BrizCommuter]

360, 361 to Enoggera (might require more 364s to service Herston though)

Only if there was a decent off-peak rail service from Enoggera to CBD.

[achiruel]

360, 361 to Enoggera (might require more 364s to service Herston though)

Only if there was a decent off-peak rail service from Enoggera to CBD.

Doesn't the 390 serve Enoggera?  It goes every 15 minuet off-peak (daytime at least)

Incidentally, once the Ferny Grove duplication is complete, is there any operational reason why Ferny Grove trains couldn't run every 15 minutes off-peak - even if every second one has to terminate at Roma St?

[SurfRail]

360, 361 to Enoggera (might require more 364s to service Herston though)

Only if there was a decent off-peak rail service from Enoggera to CBD.

Doesn't the 390 serve Enoggera?  It goes every 15 minuet off-peak (daytime at least)

Incidentally, once the Ferny Grove duplication is complete, is there any operational reason why Ferny Grove trains couldn't run every 15 minutes off-peak - even if every second one has to terminate at Roma St?

Absolutely no operational reason at all.

[Golliwog]

The 390 sticks to Samford Rd except for one or two services which are different. I wouldn't make that interchange. If there was a decent Wardell St service though...

[somebody]

TBH I wouldn't mind to see 433 terminating at Indooroopilly, and all stops City-Indooropily service via Coro Dr.  Or is that just going to make things too confusing?

Isn't that a bit pointless?

Not entirely.  I don't think it's a good idea to make services in Class C ROW too long, particularly all-stops ones.  It tends to make late running even worse.  

I think it is entirely pointless, and a retrograde step.  Alright I/B, but O/B from city or Toowong if your bus is late the other one would need to be held or you'd miss it.

The 433 is not even that long compared to most routes in Brisbane.

I'd also mention that to turn around at Indro you need to do a lap of the shopping centre which wastes a bit of time.

Simon, reasons are Twofold:

-A shorter route can be run at higher frequency for the same cost.

True, but you are increasing your unproductive overhead while reducing the attractiveness of the service by inflicting a transfer.

-2 Centenary Buzes plus the 444 and 412 on the inner, would be almost overservicing the coridoor as it is, but of course to get to destinations beyond Indro it becomes unavoidable (unless routes use the freeway full time)....Thus there is no reason for any more buses to use it, because BUZ routes alone add to give great frequency.

It's already over serviced.  Probably was even before the 88, but because of the CBD stop locations the loads gravitated to the 444.  Also the now defunct Grey St route helped people to ignore the 4xx expresses on the O/B.

These routes will easily take the load of feeder pax transferring on.

Also, saying "blue stops" can't be serviced by the current 88 or 444, because you can just repaint and re sign the stops easily. 

Saying the 444 should serve what are now the blue stops is one of the worst ideas I've heard for a while.  That would slow down a popular service, reducing its usefulness and attractiveness to pax, as well as increasing its popular stops.

At the moment people rarely wait at blue stops but walk to the express stops.  This is a good thing and we shouldn't change things to reduce this effect!

And the danger of stopping the 444 and 88 at the blue stops is once people realise that the high frequency services are stopping now, they will start to use it, and it will slow the service down over time.

I'm suprised outer sububan pax take preference over people living closer in, in Taringa.

Must be the most frustraing thing ever living only a few km from the CBD, but only actually having the 443 etc.

I'm certain a balance could be found betwen the THREE potential total buz routes as to which serve these stops.

I find it very hard to believe retaining the 443 etc is the only option for this stretch.

Perhaps the tilt train should serve all stops to Northgate then.

Taringa is an express stop anyway, so why are we having this conversation?  Even if you removed the 444 from Taringa and deleted the 88 from this stretch there would still be a number of routes which you could coordinate to have a good service.  And there is the train.

I don't think anyone has proposed a plan which is better than the present TBH.

The inner suburban pax really benefit from the true TUAG service along that stretch!

Only inbound.  Outbound there is no stop they can go to with a 10 minute headway or better, in spite of nearly 30 buses per hour along here.

[Gazza]

True, but you are increasing your unproductive overhead while reducing the attractiveness of the service by inflicting a transfer.

Surley doubling the frequency would still make it come out on top!

Or are you the type that would rather wait 30min for a single seat trip, when you could be on your way and transfer with a 15min service, which gets you on a 7.5min or better service?

I think you severley underestimate the benefits for pax to be able to "access" a high frequency route in a way they previously couldn't.

It's already over serviced.  Probably was even before the 88, but because of the CBD stop locations the loads gravitated to the 444.  Also the now defunct Grey St route helped people to ignore the 4xx expresses on the O/B.

Even pre 88 it was overserviced? Doesn't that strengthen my case? I don't really see how the coridoor benefits from some stupid hourly route being on there or not.

At the moment people rarely wait at blue stops but walk to the express stops.  This is a good thing and we shouldn't change things to reduce this effect!

Do you think it is possible to re-space a couple of the stops to get it at the equilibrium....As far as those who need it for coverage would tolerate, but far enough such that it doesn't impact upon the 444s speed through this section.....

[SurfRail]

Maybe somebody could perform the stop coverage plotting exercise for Coro Drive by using all the actual stop locations for inbound and outbound and marking the express stops in a different colour.

[BrizCommuter]

360, 361 to Enoggera (might require more 364s to service Herston though)

Only if there was a decent off-peak rail service from Enoggera to CBD.

Doesn't the 390 serve Enoggera?  It goes every 15 minuet off-peak (daytime at least)

Incidentally, once the Ferny Grove duplication is complete, is there any operational reason why Ferny Grove trains couldn't run every 15 minutes off-peak - even if every second one has to terminate at Roma St?

Absolutely no operational reason at all.

There is no reason apart from lack of funding, political stupidity, and QR reluctance, why the Ferny Grove Line cannot run 15 min off-peak prior to the duplication.

[somebody]

True, but you are increasing your unproductive overhead while reducing the attractiveness of the service by inflicting a transfer.

Surley doubling the frequency would still make it come out on top!

This comment requires interpretation.  Let's assume you mean hourly service on the inner part of the 433 + frequency increase on the outer part which might increase patronage.  Firstly, 433 is really a coverage route.  It's entire run is walkable from the 444 or the 430.  The only possible exception is around the eastern part of Gilruth Rd and around Gem Rd/Sunset Rd.  The 430 adds more catchment than the 433, I expect.

So if there is money to spend, I wouldn't be spending it here.  Centenary, 425 are where the money should be spent in Brisbane West.

Secondly, you aren't actually saving any money here, just spending it!

Or are you the type that would rather wait 30min for a single seat trip, when you could be on your way and transfer with a 15min service, which gets you on a 7.5min or better service?

Depends a lot on how frequently the second route is coming.

I think you severley underestimate the benefits for pax to be able to "access" a high frequency route in a way they previously couldn't.

Who are these people who can suddenly access a high frequency route?

I don't really see how the coridoor benefits from some stupid hourly route being on there or not.

You seem to positively hate coverage routes!

You don't see the need to provide such routes for the less mobile?

Do you think it is possible to re-space a couple of the stops to get it at the equilibrium....As far as those who need it for coverage would tolerate, but far enough such that it doesn't impact upon the 444s speed through this section.....

I believe this is a BAD IDEA.  Slowing down the 444 in particular would be a retrograde step.

[Gazza]

I'm on iPhone currently.... What about the fig tree pocket bus? That would perhaps be one where the idea has merit, due to the 444 being too far to walk from Fig Tree Pocket

[somebody]

I'm on iPhone currently.... What about the fig tree pocket bus? That would perhaps be one where the idea has merit, due to the 444 being too far to walk from Fig Tree Pocket

Do you mean the 430 (Kenmore Rd) or 445 (Fig Tree Pocket Rd)

And what about it?  Are you saying to terminate it at Indooroopilly.  I'm sure I've already said to terminate the 430 at Indro, and the 445 too.